I haven't had a chance to play a Death Knight during beta, so heres a question regarding the feel of the class. I notice that rotations are all based around rune and runic power availability; does this imply that death knight tend to wait a lot to use abilities, as oppose to using an ability every GCD? Coming from playing a hunter, I am used to maximizing DPS by using GCDs as efficiently as possible. I imagine spec would play a roll in GCD usage also seeing as blood seems to use more abilities than the other two specs. Also, are any of the DK activated abilities such as the Deathchill and Unbreakable Armor off of the GCD?
Nah you are pretty much spamming things non-stop, especially if you don't have a blood strike-> death rune talent or aren't hit/expertise capped. Lots of dks will be either GCD limited or latency limited I think.
Deathchill, Runetap, Bloodtap, AMS, IBF, Lichborne, Deathgrip, and Mind Freeze are all off the GCD if I am remembering correctly. I don't believe Hysteria, UA, Bone Armor, Vampiric Blood, Gargoyle, DRW, or Mark of Blood are off the GCD.
What kind of DPS difference do you think we are looking at between a race like Orc (which seems to have the most DPS racial benefits) versus Undead (which has the least)? Since we're a bit early to have fully developed spreadsheets, I'm not quite sure how people are accurately modeling Blood Fury - is it best to use this ability for a Gargoyle/DRW dump as early in the fight as possible? The expertise and pet damage isn't too hard to figure out, but I'm a bit unsure what the best use of BF is.
While the str/expertise is certainly nice, the Death Rune Mastery does absoutely NOTHING for you. The whole point of a Death Rune generating talent is to make your secondary strikes create deathrunes so you can use more primary strikes. DRM only affects your main strike, and therefore runes you would use for your main strike anyway. Meaning it does absolutely nothing for your DPS unless you are blood. You are honestly better off getting rune tap in that situation than DRM.
While deciding on my DK leveling and endgame PVP spec, I ended up with a 19/52 spec with 3 points in DRM before realizing that DRM wouldn't really benefit me damage-wise, but how is it survivability/utility/PVP-wise?
My guess is it'd help getting a couple of chains of ice more off, or icy touch multiple people for the slow effect of chillblains from a long range. Any more examples of this?
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread a bit with this post, but I couldn't really find a discussion about this.
Edit: Realized again that Blood of the north would open up the same abilities while preserving my DPS due to converting of blood runes to death ones, makes my question void. Oh well.
I think what I'm about to suggest was mentioned before at some point, but I also think that there was no clear verdict on it. I was playing around with frost a bit and realized that it would be possible to drop 4 points in frost with no notable DPS ramifications (assuming you have a shaman for the raid) to reach a 0/50/21 build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
Now, the 4 piece bonus of tier 7 death knight gear gives obliterate another 10 runic power generated. Would this be enough runic power generation to maintain a gargoyle, and how would you guys weigh that gain (along with the other unholy stuff) against the loss of several valuable blood talents? Keep in mind that with epidemic, it is now possible to do a rotation of:
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS
OB -> OB -> OB -> FS
if I am not mistaken, which impacts both the DPS from your rotation, and throws in another buffed runic power generation obliterate if you have 4p T7.
I think what I'm about to suggest was mentioned before at some point, but I also think that there was no clear verdict on it. I was playing around with frost a bit and realized that it would be possible to drop 4 points in frost with no notable DPS ramifications (assuming you have a shaman for the raid) to reach a 0/50/21 build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
There are 4 points you can shave off of that build, but Imp Icy talons is definitely not one of them. Why would you ditch 5% haste (especially when you have Killing Machine) for Deathchill or Unbreakable armor as a DPSer?
As for the rest of your post, it's a good idea, but I'm still skeptical of Frost's RP generation. Plus Frost Strike is so much better than Death Coil that the DPS gain would be a lot smaller, if it exists at all.
Originally Posted by dalavita
While deciding on my DK leveling and endgame PVP spec, I ended up with a 19/52 spec with 3 points in DRM before realizing that DRM wouldn't really benefit me damage-wise, but how is it survivability/utility/PVP-wise?
My guess is it'd help getting a couple of chains of ice more off, or icy touch multiple people for the slow effect of chillblains from a long range. Any more examples of this?
I hardly see the point in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. DRM is a WASTE of points in its entirety unless you are specced far enough into blood to get Heart Strike.
Originally Posted by Melchior
What kind of DPS difference do you think we are looking at between a race like Orc (which seems to have the most DPS racial benefits) versus Undead (which has the least)? Since we're a bit early to have fully developed spreadsheets, I'm not quite sure how people are accurately modeling Blood Fury - is it best to use this ability for a Gargoyle/DRW dump as early in the fight as possible? The expertise and pet damage isn't too hard to figure out, but I'm a bit unsure what the best use of BF is.
You would use it like any on-use trinket that gives AP... use it in such a way that it's used as often as possible, but also used in conjunction with other cooldowns whenever possible (especially large haste gains like Bloodlust).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Version 3 now includes:
Gargoyle
Hystaria
Bug Fixes on Strength Adjustments.
Is it normal I always get a message from Excel 2007 saying it has to recover data? All the version I tried so far had this problem. Any chance anyone else said this as well? Happening on multiple computers for me
I have read the post and feel that I understand some of the basics of the class, I was not in beta so I have no real feel for the mechanics. This is very good discussion and I have learned alot.
If I understand correctly the RP is gained like energy or rage. Is it gained on the white hit or any strike in the rotation? Should DRW/Gargoyle be timed with heroism or just a pure dump when RP is full? How often should it be mixed into your rotation to maximize DPS?
Good point Zurm, I think I'll probably take that out of deathchill, I didn't really think about that 5% haste for some reason when I was working on the build. I'm doing that over unbreakable armor because my gut is telling me that unbreakable armor is probably more of a DPS increase, and definitely provides some tanking utility that could buy a raid some time in an oh shit situation.
In any case, the RP generation isn't something I want to try modeling without having had access to beta, so I think I'll wait till 80 and then revisit this idea when I'm getting close to having 4p t7. I'm fairly based on brain math that the RP would be enough, but then theres also the DPS loss from blood talents to consider, theres a lot of unholy points which don't go to much use in there what with frost strike and such. Does anyone know if bladed armor updates dynamically enough to give any significant DPS increase based off of the armor bonus in unbreakable armor?
I have read the post and feel that I understand some of the basics of the class, I was not in beta so I have no real feel for the mechanics. This is very good discussion and I have learned alot.
If I understand correctly the RP is gained like energy or rage. Is it gained on the white hit or any strike in the rotation?
No need to lie.
You should take a gander at Section 4.2 of the very first post in this thread.
Nah you are pretty much spamming things non-stop, especially if you don't have a blood strike-> death rune talent or aren't hit/expertise capped. Lots of dks will be either GCD limited or latency limited I think.
Deathchill, Runetap, Bloodtap, AMS, IBF, Lichborne, Deathgrip, and Mind Freeze are all off the GCD if I am remembering correctly. I don't believe Hysteria, UA, Bone Armor, Vampiric Blood, Gargoyle, DRW, or Mark of Blood are off the GCD.
Hysteria was off the GCD when it cost a Blood Rune. I never specced into it after the cost was removed, was it put back on the GCD?
Empower Rune Weapon is off the GCD in addition to your list.
So here is something that has bugged me while I was playing on the Beta, and speced 50/0/21
Epidemic - I always felt when I had this talent that I was doing alot of waiting, I'd dump my Runic Power and have to wait for my Blood Plague to get to the end of its duration before starting up my rotation again. It seemed to me it felt alot more natural to jump into the cycle again once I had finished.
Instead of Epidemic I would normally max out Necrosis.
I guess what I'm asking is if the extra 2 ticks of Blood Plague add up to more damage over time, then the constant 4% shadow damage with our White Damage, specially when you consider the kind of damage a swing from something like Betrayer of Humanity will do, with a top end of 901, and knowing that weapons will only get harder hitting as the xpac gets older.
So here is something that has bugged me while I was playing on the Beta, and speced 50/0/21
Epidemic - I always felt when I had this talent that I was doing alot of waiting, I'd dump my Runic Power and have to wait for my Blood Plague to get to the end of its duration before starting up my rotation again. It seemed to me it felt alot more natural to jump into the cycle again once I had finished.
Instead of Epidemic I would normally max out Necrosis.
I guess what I'm asking is if the extra 2 ticks of Blood Plague add up to more damage over time, then the constant 4% shadow damage with our White Damage, specially when you consider the kind of damage a swing from something like Betrayer of Humanity will do, with a top end of 901, and knowing that weapons will only get harder hitting as the xpac gets older.
Epidemic is a complete waste of 2 points as 50/0/21. You should be refreshing your cycles after a non-talented round of diseases because you are using a PS and IT every wave of rune cooldowns. You made the right choice, IMO. As a minor correction, Betrayer of Humanity has 910 topend, according to this.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
During the (brief) discussion about efficient ability priorities when dealing with different sized AoE situations, one of the posters mentioned working in ERW to squeeze out more BBs.
Is there any school of thought on when would be the most efficient time to use ERW? Or do most people consider it a "oh crap" button for use when you totally mess up your rotation, or need to do something like emergency tank?
When I was considering this, is that it might be useful use fairly shortly after popping a gargoyle.
During the (brief) discussion about efficient ability priorities when dealing with different sized AoE situations, one of the posters mentioned working in ERW to squeeze out more BBs.
Is there any school of thought on when would be the most efficient time to use ERW? Or do most people consider it a "oh crap" button for use when you totally mess up your rotation, or need to do something like emergency tank?
When I was considering this, is that it might be useful use fairly shortly after popping a gargoyle.
I personally find it primarily to be an ability to reset rotations after I have messed up badly. It also has MANY excellent PvP applications. Personally, I can see where you might want to use it for particularly potent dps or burst, but in a raiding situation I think its best to keep as an "oh crap" button until you are extremely comfortable with your rotations. They will take some time to get used to, I can almost guarantee that.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Is there any school of thought on when would be the most efficient time to use ERW? Or do most people consider it a "oh crap" button for use when you totally mess up your rotation, or need to do something like emergency tank?
When I was considering this, is that it might be useful use fairly shortly after popping a gargoyle.
The lengthy cooldown makes it pretty difficult to decide which moment is best. Like someone said earlier in this thread, if tank TPS becomes an issue, it can be used right after the initial threat buildup to give a headstart. For DPSing, it would make sense to use it every time it's up to maximize dps. If you have trouble sustaining the gargoyle and for some reason can't generate enough RP, that's another moment.
A while back, I saw something in the old thread that said that you dps as blood spec in unholy presence, and that you dps as unholy spec in blood presence. Does this still hold true, because if I understood correctly this compendium says everyone dpses in blood presence.
A while back, I saw something in the old thread that said that you dps as blood spec in unholy presence, and that you dps as unholy spec in blood presence. Does this still hold true, because if I understood correctly this compendium says everyone dpses in blood presence.
The answer isn't a yes or no. Ideally, you have a good connection and computer. In this case, you should be able to pull off the rotation for Blood spec in Blood Presence, getting a 15% damage boost (which is significant). If this is not the case, or you are PvPing, then you want the extra breathing room of 1 second GCDs to pull off your rotation. In other words, you should be able to pull of the rotation with Blood Presence, but if you have a bad computer/connection/reaction time, sticking with unholy presence MIGHT improve your DPS. As a general rule, you do want to use blood presence for PvE DPS.
This is because Blood spec's rotation is typically tighter and involving more GCDs in the same time frame as other rotations (unholy being the most forgiving).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I'd like to point out something concerning the Icy Touch glyph, Butchery and Arcane Torrent which may have been missed.
A regular IT/PS/BS/BS/OB FS -> IT/PS/OB/OB FS rotation pumps out enough runic power for 3.25 frost strikes per 20 seconds.
If you add butchery, Glyph of Icy Touch and use Arcane torrent at the beginning of a fight - your runic power per 10 seconds increases from 65 to 79+Arcane torrent - thus increasing the amount of frost strikes per 20 seconds to 4. (IT/PS/BS/BS/OB/FS/FS, IT/PS/OB/OB/FS/FS. In theory this should equate to a 10% loss of icy touch dps but a ~23% increase in frost strike dps. The increase in global cooldowns to 10.5 should not matter thanks to the 2 second 'buffer' window for rune regen.
Something to think about for an all out dps rotation.
During the (brief) discussion about efficient ability priorities when dealing with different sized AoE situations, one of the posters mentioned working in ERW to squeeze out more BBs.
Is there any school of thought on when would be the most efficient time to use ERW? Or do most people consider it a "oh crap" button for use when you totally mess up your rotation, or need to do something like emergency tank?
When I was considering this, is that it might be useful use fairly shortly after popping a gargoyle.
I was giving OOC RP gen some thought yesterday and realized that with the right combination, its possible to hit 60 without the use of consumables. Assuming you're a blood elf (Arcane Torrent, +15 RP), you have the minor Glyph of Raise Dead (+20 RP on summon), and ERW (+25 RP), all three can be popped on the pull for an immediate UB or the much hated on HC. Both would provide a rather nice boost to initial AOE threat generation. While HC is situational, running into a pack and popping HC followed with a Deathchilled HB would pretty much eliminate the possibility of an early pull by the raid AOE. The PVP usage of such a technique sound rather promising as well.
Perhaps there is a replacement for Arcane Torrent that I'm missing which would open the ability up to all races.
Any thoughts?
Edit: Also, I'd imagine corpse explosioning a ghoul on the pull might be a quick way to snag some initial aggro.
The rogue class has been around for a LONG time... you're going to have to give us some time to come up with a model to make theorycrafting easy-mode. My Rawr module is technically complete (all the functionality is coded) but the math seems a bit off, I'm registering almost 6k AP in raids (granted, Rune of the Fallen Crusader has to count as a static 7.5% increase to strength) and almost 6k dps. I'll be double checking my math off tzenes/methods' spreadsheets, but any of us could be wrong.
The sheets, as of now, are more of a private tool the authors were kind enough to share with us. Once I get the Rawr module more accurate (which I dont expect to really happen until 2-3 weeks into WOTLK) we will hopefully have an accurate model available that offers built-in talent, gear, and stat comparison graphs.
If anyone has screenshots showing DPS breakdowns (I need the individual DPS per attack type or total dps and the percent that a given ability provided) and could provide me your spec and rotation with that screenshot (sent VIA PM, to avoid forum clutter), I should be able to narrow down some of the math issues and hopefully get it out with the main Rawr release for WOTLK.
Certainly, and I didn't mean to suggest anyone should rush, I was just curious what was the current state of what we were using to model with. Your post makes sense and I appreciate it.
I was giving OOC RP gen some thought yesterday and realized that with the right combination, its possible to hit 60 without the use of consumables. Assuming you're a blood elf (Arcane Torrent, +15 RP), you have the minor Glyph of Raise Dead (+20 RP on summon), and ERW (+25 RP), all three can be popped on the pull for an immediate UB or the much hated on HC. Both would provide a rather nice boost to initial AOE threat generation. While HC is situational, running into a pack and popping HC followed with a Deathchilled HB would pretty much eliminate the possibility of an early pull by the raid AOE. The PVP usage of such a technique sound rather promising as well.
Perhaps there is a replacement for Arcane Torrent that I'm missing which would open the ability up to all races.
Any thoughts?
Edit: Also, I'd imagine corpse explosioning a ghoul on the pull might be a quick way to snag some initial aggro.
Is it normal I always get a message from Excel 2007 saying it has to recover data? All the version I tried so far had this problem. Any chance anyone else said this as well? Happening on multiple computers for me
I've only been trying on Excel 2003, so its possible there is a bug I'm unaware of.
I'll try to fix this and get back to you.
Also, after the error can you still use the sheet per normal?
Not that I'm aware of. The tooltip only mentions the blood rune conversion and activation, although knowing Bliz that doesn't mean much. I don't remember noticing an RP gain while using it before beta went down, but I wasn't really looking for it either.
I'd be inclined to say 'probably not, but maybe'.
EDIT: Wowhead and Thott list the third effect as Energize (100 RP). Now I'm wondering how old/new those listings are.
Not that I'm aware of. The tooltip only mentions the blood rune conversion and activation, although knowing Bliz that doesn't mean much. I don't remember noticing an RP gain while using it before beta went down, but I wasn't really looking for it either.
I'd be inclined to say 'probably not, but maybe'.
EDIT: Wowhead and Thott list the third effect as Energize (100 RP). Now I'm wondering how old/new those listings are.
I'm probably mistaken. I just remember using some abilities to use Horn out of combat and thought BT was one of them.
No, you're correct, Blood Tap was giving 10 RP. I guess it's possible that it was removed towards the end, but it was still in as of just before 3.0 went live. Didn't do much testing after that because there wasn't anyone around on the beta realms afterwards for the most part.
11/10/08, 1:32 PM
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