• Zurm

Slow MH, Fast OH. I should probably have Illundai mention that. The reasoning is that you want a fast offhand to generate a maximum number of procs, but a slow, hard hitting main hand for more powerful strikes and BCB procs.

 

Humanwarlock

Are these weightings for the 50/0/21 spec, the 51/13/7 spec, or are they valid for both?

 

Janraea

I seem to recall that BCB doesn't proc the mainhand from offhand hits anymore - confirm/deny?
If that's the case, fast-fast is definitely better. Of it still does, Slow/Fast would be better, ala BC combat-sword rogues.

edit:
Oh, our strikes aren't normalized? I had been spreadsheeting with the assumption they were.

 

Teyrocar

I'd like confirmation on this as well.

 

• Zurm

BCB isn't (and possibly rune strike/frost strike?), although it might be true that the increased procrate of fast/fast beats out increased BCB damage. In terms of strikes being normalized, I believe they are. I mis-spoke when I said increased strike damage.

Deny, as of last beta build if memory serves.

 

Lanlaorn

Why do people often not understand that attacks are normalized so that they benefit from attack power equally (i.e. treated as though they're all the same speed for AP calculation purposes) but having a slower weapon (all else being equal, specifically DPS) means you have a higher damage per hit (from the higher base damage) and thus you want slow weapons for instant attacks. So even for normalized instant attacks it makes a lot of sense to always the slowest weapon.

 

Janraea

If it were purely a question of strike damage, that would be true. But one of the major damage sources for a DW build is the Killing Machine proc, which goes off significantly more often with fast-fast than with slow-fast. As it stands, I'm confident that slow-fast is more damage for a BCB build and fast-fast is better for a build without it (if a DW build can be worthwhile without BCB).

 

Crax

Actually, you didn't. Slow weapons *will* have increased strike damage, but not simply because of weapon speed. It's because slower weapons have higher average damage.

I know I'm picking at nits, but just thought I'd clarify....

 

Janraea

Put more clearly, only the portion of damage added by AP gets normalized - the damage of the weapon itself is not. People always use words like 'average damage', 'base damage', 'top-end damage' - that confused me for a long time (I would say that 'average damage' is the average of your min and max weapon damage after AP).

 

Avenrus

Excuse my lack of knowledge, I do not understand why crit rating has such a low value for death knights?
I understand that crit is a powerhouse for us compared to enhancement shamans for example, but for 1 crit rating to be almost equal to 1 AP is dramatically low.

 

Flamingcloud

Part of that is because of the low stats he used(like a rare weapon), but part is dots don't crit, and we don't have anything absurd like flurry+impale+deep wounds.

 

Sylari

Is deep unholy inviable for DPS then?

 

Lanlaorn

Deep Unholy DoTs do crit (Wandering Plague).

 

Saltificus

The most current build (3.0.3) on WoWhead is showing that Unholy Blight has no runic power cost associated with it anymore. Can anyone confirm or deny this, as I've been calculating UB as a runic power dump. Thanks in advance.





Edit: It seems Wowhead was incorrectly marked, currently in game Unholy blight costs 60 runic power. Disregard or delete.

 

Darkrenown

I think that was his point. You can't answer "Why is crit so lowly valued?" with "Because DoTs don't crit" when Unholy's DoTs do crit.

 

Sylari

Yeah, to clarify I was asking if his assertion that DoTs don't crit meant that Wandering Plague and therefore Deep unholy was a bad DPS build.

 

Flamingcloud

Well we don't have flurry+deepwounds+impale or anything absurd like that which helps with crit scaling.

 

Hunglo

That was for the 51/13/7 spec. I was using Methods numbers as I know if I was trying to do the weightings, I'd buck something up and throw it way off.

 

methods

I used a 180 dps 2H weapon in my tests. I just tried it again and the numbers don't change too much even with a Betrayer (~220 dps). Hit until capped. STR is still amazing for all specs. Crit and Exp are around the same (before capped). ApR good for blood but less for unholy but still decent for frost.

Really busy at work so I haven't been able to do many error searches so there could still be major flaws I'm missing. The only known bug/mistake I have that I haven't fixed yet is the lack of glancing blows in my white damage calculation as well as not using a "One Roll" system instead of normal averages.

For now it looks like for (after cap):

Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>APR>Haste

If i can get the time I'll try to post some actual numbers.

 

Darkrenown

Has anyone checked if the Glyph of death strike is still bugged? It was reported on the beta forum a while back and I haven't seen any mention of it being fixed.

 

Hunglo

Methods, where would AGI be for each spec. I'm under the assumption that AGI is at least better than the worst stat (ApR for unholy, Haste for the others). But would it fit between the next stat up?

I.E.,
Unholy: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>Haste>ApR

Blood: 1WDPS>>STR>CRIT>ApR>AGI>AP>Haste

Frost: 1WDPS>>>STR>CRIT>AP>AGI>APR>Haste

Or would it remain only better than the worst stat? Also, I'm looking for your latest spreadsheet and have been unable to find it. I would think such a great tool would be on the first page.

 

methods

I haven't added agility into my calculations totally yet so I can't give a full answer on that. You are right that it will be quite low on the priorities.

My sheets haven't been posted yet aside from a few PMs to other 'tool makers' on these boards. The reason is they (my sheets) are a shameful mess and are not very user friendly yet. When I have a less busy schedule I'll get the kinks out and have a presentable sheet posted. Meanwhile Tzenes' sheet is slightly different but could give you very similar answers by manually changing variables and recording the difference. I think we're all still working with approximates anyway.

 

Nethris

Agi might beat both APR and Haste for Unholy and Frost, putting it above AP for blood seems unlikely to me - or it will be better than AP for frost as well, as it should affect frost strike but not death coil, and a "standard" frost rotation for theory crafting doesn't use howling blast to my knowledge. I assume those rankings were for one point of each? AP doesn't get the same scaling as STR of course, but would 2 AP beat 1 ApR for blood for example (as that's closer to the same item budget cost so more likely to be the approximate tradeoff we see)?

 

Septus

I pulled this from the other DK thread. For Unholy, shouldn't this dps priority system be modified to place Death Coil right below Scourge Strike, given enough rp(or should it be more than 40, so as to leave some extra for the new UB)? I thought runic power usage trumped everything but applying diseases.

 

Nacht

I checked yesterday in Ebon Hold, and Glyph of Death Strike does appear to be working with Rage of Rivendare.