I'm pretty sure BoH is best in slot for us, ret as well as arms. My question is, which is 2nd, 3rd etc. I'm hoping BoH drops tonight and I get it but if not I really have no clue what to take other than staying away from Jawbone (which may not even be true, just basing that off the stats).
Is there any information out there showing and proving Rune of Razorice is greater than other runes if there's more than 1 frostfire bolt specced mage in the raid?
Thanks for the reply, however it still doesn't answer my question.
Defense gives you, point for point, way more avoidance than parry rating and about the same avoidance as dodge rating. However defense doesn't suffer from diminishing returns as bad as the other stats.
Why should I stops stacking defense when I'm uncrittable, given the above facts?
One reason could be that defense is more expensive item-budget wise, but I haven't found any evidence of it being so yet.
Assuming im already uncrittable: 100 defense rating >>> 100 dodge rating? At least it would seem so with the DR penalty.
You're being kind of silly here. Of course you should stop stacking defense once you hit the cap, because at that point, Dodge is better. And, of course, at some point, DR will make dodge worse than defense. You can't just ignore the range in which dodge is flat out better. Furthermore, the point at which diminishing returns makes defense worth more than dodge is very high. My calculation shows that if you have only 689 defense rating (the minimum), you need 871 dodge rating before it is more beneficial to get defense.
EDIT: This varies with strength and parry rating as well. For my calculation I used 900 str, which seems normal, and 10 parry rating, just to benefit defense more and give a more conservation number.
Last edited by huntcaudata : 12/03/08 at 11:52 AM.
You're being kind of silly here. Of course you should stop stacking defense once you hit the cap, because at that point, Dodge is better. And, of course, at some point, DR will make dodge worse than defense. You can't just ignore the range in which dodge is flat out better. Furthermore, the point at which diminishing returns makes defense worth more than dodge is very high. My calculation shows that if you have only 689 defense rating (the minimum), you need 871 dodge rating before it is more beneficial to get defense.
EDIT: This varies with strength and parry rating as well. For my calculation I used 900 str, which seems normal, and 10 parry rating, just to benefit defense more and give a more conservation number.
Thanks for that, so you'd suggest getting crit immune and then forgetting about defense alltogether in favor of parry/dodge/stam?
On that very same topic, what comination of these trinkets should I use for unholy tanking:
Unfortunately, removing the seal will take me below crit immune atm so it's between Gossamer and Valor medal. Im having a hard time choosing between those two.
Not exactly. I'm talking strictly about avoidance here. Dodge is better than defense for avoidance purposes. Defense is still better than parry until even higher levels of rating. Whether you want to gem/enchant/gear for avoidance or effective health is really a question of philosophy, what content you're working on, etc.
Forgive me if this has been covered, but I heard from a friend that the Obliterate glyph is now just a 20% increase and the tooltip was not updated from beta, is this true? Would make calculating whether or not to use it a lot simpler :p
if i were to change to this build for using a 2h weapon would it up my dps or possibly lower it?
I'm also wondering if the crit chance of OB is 24% with talents before you add in your crit rating or if it only gets a boost from the highest crit talent?
I applied the OB to the DW spec I linked before and found my dps only got an added 3% from using OB. I still have not put PS in my rotation yet since I am at work but I will test it when I return home.
Another question I had was whether it would be beneficial to put points into Death Rune Mastery and have all of your runes as death runes so you could use any abilities you wish at any given time.
As for using Runic Power Mastery I believe it helps because I can get off more FS in a row. Currently FS is 18% of my dmg with HB being 32% and Melee at 30% as the top 3 dmg in a fight. I'm Averaging around 1400 dps now that I've added OB and focused more on using my Death Runes at the proper times.
What glyphs would you recommend with this spec? I was leaning towards OB, RT, and IT glyphs.
Unfortunately, removing the seal will take me below crit immune atm so it's between Gossamer and Valor medal. Im having a hard time choosing between those two.
Here's the important thing in my opinion about it though: It's a shield, and you're specifically looking at Unholy tanking. Where's does Unholy's strength come from? Bone Shield! Any attack absorbed fully by a shield fails to eat a charge of Bone Shield, thereby extending its duration. The problem though lies in the fact that it only absorbs 4000 damage, which can be as little as one melee attack in heroics (unless the DK's mitigation percentages apply to damage that hits a shield effect instead of only applying to damage that passes through a shield effect). The stamina is phenomenal once you're crit safe though, especially with stamina scaling talents. While the stats on it don't themselves run into diminishing returns, they'll go down, down, down in usefulness the further you up the difficulty of the encounters you're taking the trinket into.
As for the medal, if I'm doing the math right and you popped it whenever its cooldown was up, it would lead to an overall 1% extra dodge before DR added by the use. It's a great trinket for quickly upping your avoidance, but deathknights are already stacked with usable abilities to increase or mitigation.
That's the line of reasoning I'd go down for choosing the Essence over the Medal: Going for the overall greatly increased effective health rather than avoidance that will be affected by diminishing returns. Your mileage may vary.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
Read the essence again. It reduces damage from each attack by 140, for 28 attacks, essentially (but only 10 seconds - so it's primarily useful for AOE). This will have no affect on Bone Shield uptime unless you were taking less than 140 per hit.
DPS Compendium Thread is locked so I can't comment there, but there seems to be a typo in the listing for Virulence (p1):
Virulence 3.38% 0.13% 0.25% 0.38%
How works the AP contribution ? I have seen different things, but nothing really clear (maybe i miss something, there are a lot of posts)
Example :
a 100-100 damage, 2.00 speed, 1-h weapon (so 50 dps), with 1400 AP
The auto attack will be 100+1400/14*2 = 300 damage
Now, use BS, with no disease.
1. BS is 300*50%+191 = 341 damage so ap contribution is 0.071
2. BS is (100+1400/14*2.4)*50% + 191 = 361 damage so ap contribution is 0.086
3. BS is 100*50% +1400/14*2.4 + 191 = 481 damage so ap contribution is 0.171
4. an other weird thing
I have no problem with normalization, but i find weird that th ap contribution is normalized and cut in half (for BS). I think the second proposition is the good, but i really want a confirmation.
Read the essence again. It reduces damage from each attack by 140, for 28 attacks, essentially (but only 10 seconds - so it's primarily useful for AOE). This will have no affect on Bone Shield uptime unless you were taking less than 140 per hit.
You're right...My fault for skimming it. The effective health it offers still outweighs the avoidance of the Medal to me though.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
I've looked through the DPS Compendium as well as other threads here and can't really find anything definitive on which runes we should be Runeforging.
I have been using Fallen Crusader, but a mage in my guild has been telling me to switch over to Razorice, he says he saw a thread on here claiming the extra frost vulnerability could boost the DPS of frost or frostfire bolt specced mages by anywhere between 300-800.
Only thing is, I can't find a thread stating that anywhere, and when I switched to Razorice I didn't see a boost in his DPS,
and I kinda want to keep using Fallen Crusader.
I was wondering if anyone has done extensive tests/research/work to see if Razorice is more beneficial to bring to a raid if there will be mages, or if it's vulnerability isn't really that helpful.
From what I can tell from the DPS compendium and other threads here, it's still kind of up in the air as to which Runeforge enchant is the best to use.
I've looked through the DPS Compendium as well as other threads here and can't really find anything definitive on which runes we should be Runeforging.
I have been using Fallen Crusader, but a mage in my guild has been telling me to switch over to Razorice, he says he saw a thread on here claiming the extra frost vulnerability could boost the DPS of frost or frostfire bolt specced mages by anywhere between 300-800.
Only thing is, I can't find a thread stating that anywhere, and when I switched to Razorice I didn't see a boost in his DPS,
and I kinda want to keep using Fallen Crusader.
I was wondering if anyone has done extensive tests/research/work to see if Razorice is more beneficial to bring to a raid if there will be mages, or if it's vulnerability isn't really that helpful.
From what I can tell from the DPS compendium and other threads here, it's still kind of up in the air as to which Runeforge enchant is the best to use.
It's exactly 5% more frost damage on the boss, assuming 3K DPS per mage, and 2mages, you're looking at a raid dps increase of 300DPS if they're only using frostfire bolts, which I'm not sure of, but I don't know much about mages. You're probably not getting this from a fallen crusader runeforge, so yeah, theorically it's better to use razorice. However on any fights that forces you to move around, the debuff won't be up most of the time because it has to be restacked, and it takes quite a decent amount of time with a 2H.
Razorice would probably be best for dps burns, but like Pyros said, it probably wouldn't get stacked to 5 all that easily if you're having to run around a bunch. With a 2hander it can be slow to reapply it.
For this build I have found that DW is doing better dps than if i changed it to a 2h spec because with DW I proc Killing Machine far more often and thus have a crit on every FS or HB.
I understand that most people are saying that for a DW spec to work you want to get BCB in Unholy so that you can maximize your white dmg but I tried that and the dps just doesnt stack up.
I have tried the trispec and I cant find where people are getting that BCB does that much damage to a target. In theory BCB should proc often with a 2.6 mainhand and a 1.5 offhand but when i combined these 2 weapon speeds with the trispec BCB proced few and far between.
I'm just looking for a spec aside from trispec that can be used to DW and do the same if not more dmg than using a 2h. As of this post I have beaten every DK I have partied with in overall dmg and dps in 5 man instances. I would like to hear from other DKs on DW and how they make it work.
first my question:
does an obliterate without annihilation also eat other dk's diseases?
why i ask :
my friend (unholy dk) told me he experienced it a lot in heros, when grouped with a 50/0/20+1 blood-dk.
i just told him i couldn't believe this, other dk's diseases don't count for obliterate's damage, so why should the strike take them off? but he kept telling me that he saw it happen all the time.
after browsing through many posts, i found just one entry telling that it was like that during beta.
[i was checking some hundred posts (after using the forum and thread search), even in the blizzard forums:
i couldn't find what i was looking for.]
first my question:
does an obliterate without annihilation also eat other dk's diseases?
why i ask :
my friend (unholy dk) told me he experienced it a lot in heros, when grouped with a 50/0/20+1 blood-dk.
i just told him i couldn't believe this, other dk's diseases don't count for obliterate's damage, so why should the strike take them off? but he kept telling me that he saw it happen all the time.
after browsing through many posts, i found just one entry telling that it was like that during beta.
[i was checking some hundred posts (after using the forum and thread search), even in the blizzard forums:
i couldn't find what i was looking for.]
I can tell you that after doing 25 man naxx twice with a blood DK (who didn't have Annihilation) I never once noticed my diseases dropping off early. Purely anecdotal evidence, but I'm pretty sure that bug has been fixed.
Tried searching and reading through several threads, but I couldn't find an explicit consolidated answer, so:
1) Exactly what is considered a 'spell' for a Deathknight
2) Which of those 'spells' does Virulence affect
3) Which of those 'spells' does Impurity benefit
3a) What are the AP coefficients for those spells?
1) If it's not a "Strike," then it's a spell, with the exception of taunts, which should be all be based on melee hit for every class.
2) Apparently all of them
3) All of the below, except for Blood Worms should benefit from Impurity. Possibly not damage done by Summon Gargoyle.
3a) (Taking from the DPS Compendium thread)
Blood Boil 0.04
Blood Plague 0.055
Bloodworms 0.006
Corpse Explosion 0.0475
Death and Decay 0.0475
Death Coil 0.15
Frost Fever 0.055
Howling Blast 0.1
Summon Gargoyle 0.4
Icy Touch 0.1
Pestilence 0.04
Strangulate 0.06
Unholy Blight 0.013
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
1) If it's not a "Strike," then it's a spell, with the exception of taunts, which should be all be based on melee hit for every class.
No. Taunts are a spell, and thus are on the spell hit table. That's why there's a glyph for every tanking class which gives them 8% higher chance to hit with taunt. (9% for normal melee hit cap + 8% from the glyph = 17% spell hit cap) You were probably confused by a change Blizzard made some time ago so that taunts benefited from melee hit rating; they never changed them to use the melee hit table.
No. Taunts are a spell, and thus are on the spell hit table. That's why there's a glyph for every tanking class which gives them 8% higher chance to hit with taunt. (9% for normal melee hit cap + 8% from the glyph = 17% spell hit cap) You were probably confused by a change Blizzard made some time ago so that taunts benefited from melee hit rating; they never changed them to use the melee hit table.
Again, you're right. I was getting mixed up after some discussion elsewhere regarding getting rid of the 1% chance to resist taunts that was previously unavoidable. My mistake. I should really sleep more.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
Simple question: Is Agility really great for any kind of DK? More so than a Death Knight? Let me explain more clearly: A frost Death Knight in my guild claims that Agility is dire to her spec and rolls on every heavy agility item that drops. I, on the other hand, (as a rogue) am not allowed to roll on anything with strength. I understand this but isn't it hypocritical for her to roll on everything heavy on agility but I'm not allowed to roll on strength? Strength is not completely worthless albeit better for other classes but wouldn't' it benefit the raid more if the rogues/hunters got the agility heavy items? I think she has misconstrued agility with critical strike rating which is what is wanted for Frost.
That sounds like an internal guild issue to me that should be solved in guild.
In any case, a DK will treat Agi much like a warrior will. They get minor amounts of crit and dodge from it, and very small amounts of AC. That's makes it vastly better than int, but still worse than a "real" DK stat.
You also don't give her role. If she's DPS that's especially silly; agi is about 1/3 as good as strength or hit for frost DPS.
12/03/08, 8:30 AM
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