Natohk

Tried to check armory at work to see my armor pen, but it doesnt show. I believe I'm at 377 or 337.

Is it better to be a little under soft hit cap and soft expertise cap and stack more armor pen? Currently waiting on on Grim Toll and Girdle of Razuvius drop (i know... Naxx) to align my stars.

This is to say, that i can remove some of my ulduar armor pen gear and put on lesser gear to re-achieve hit and expertise cap.

 

Flippers

What is currently the best rune for Frost DPS?(Not BiS geared, no XT-sigil)
Some people say FC is the best until at least you get XT-Sigil, and some say razorice is the best all the way.
Can i get some clarification about this? thanks

 

• Darkside

I'm fairly certain that FC beats Razorice in almost all scenarios. I'm not entirely sure why, but my guess would be that it has to do with the great deal of target swapping that any DPS class has to do in Ulduar. All fights except for Ignis and Vezax have some adds/target swap component to them and Razorice, being a stacking DEbuff, can't compete nearly as well in those situations as FC.

Finally, if you don't have the Sigil, there's no point in speccing frost at the moment. You will get MUCH more mileage out of Unholy.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Flippers

Ive really had issues with Frost vs. Unholy.
Im really not a fan of Unholy and i dont enjoy the spec as much as i enjoy Frost.

I tried my single target dps with Unholy(12/0/59) with my current gears, using this rotation
PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>RP dump
SS>SS>SS>RP dump

I didn't enojy what i was doing so i switched to Frost(17/51/3) using my current gear as well with this rotation
PS>IT>OB>BS>BS>FS dump
PS>IT>OB>OB>FS dump
HB on rime procs.

After a couple of tests, i found out that I got 300 DPS inc when i switched to Frost from Unholy. Am I doing something wrong? Both dps were tested on a boss dummy.

 

• Darkside

Yes, you were testing the viability of a RAID spec against a TARGET DUMMY. It's an inherently flawed comparison, as the dummies are almost always in execute range, assume ideal conditions, have exactly 0 AoE component, no debuffs/buffs etc. etc. I could go on, but you get the point.

Furthermore, what you "enjoy" and what is actually effective are very often two completely different things. If you're looking for a spec that's fun then by all means, spec Frost without the sigil. But you will do significantly (in the range of 10-20%) less DPS than if you had picked a spec that is better suited to your current gear availability.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

• frmorrison

What is important to remember is you are playing a game, hopefully to have some fun. Even if you have the potential to do 500 dps more with Unholy in a raid buffed setting, it seems better to spec Frost since you said you enjoy it more and you seem to understand the rotation for Frost better. Also people usually perform better when they enjoy what they are doing.

Now if you were in a top tier guild and you may get gkicked for 500 dps less than you should be doing, that is a different story, but I don't think you have to worry about that.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Taidaisher

I have been reading through these forums for a while, and the information provided has been very helpful. I have read and understand that +str is the most important stat to chase as a DK. I don't raid much outside of OS/VoA, so I don't have access to high end gear. I have been searching for gear with +str stats, but have noticed that most of the gear that has +str is geared towards tanks (defense rating, dodge rating, parry, etc.).
What would be the next best stat to chase? AP? AGI? Or is it better to take the +str gear with the extra tanking enchants/stats or go after gear that doesn't have +str but has the dps enchants/stats?

 

• Darkside

Probably not. There are a few instances where tank gear can come close to competing with DPS gear, but they are few and far between.

If you don't run Ulduar, check out the following list of pre-3.1 gear that has strength on it and try to pick of some of it: Plate Armor - Items - World of Warcraft.

As far as secondary stats go, it depends heavily on your spec. Frost gets a lot of mileage out of crit and Blood goes ape-shit for Armor Penetration (I'm not entirely sure what Unholy likes, but I imagine you can find it on these forums somewhere). You should always be hit-capped and either at or just under the expertise soft cap, so aim to pick up gear that helps you meet either of those criterion.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

zeheres

This is absolutely not true. Frost provides amazing numbers even without XT's sigil and is definitely competitive.

 

DreamMorpheus

I can't seem to find much information about the specific (and practical) mechanics of armor penetration as of 3.1, at least as it pertains to Death Knights. I am pretty familiar with DKs at this point, but on my current one I am playing with Blood DPS for the first time. The raw stat values from Pene look very promising to stack heavily (once hit/exp capped of course). I was wondering though, is there any kind of cap on pene? Can you keep stacking it forever (granting actually negative armor, like in WC3)? I understand that reaching levels that high is probably impossible with in game gear, but it seems to me far more likely that pene has some soft caps associated with it. I have heard rumors about caps associated with sunder and expose, and would like to know if there is a practical level at which stacking pene stops granting a significant dps increase.

 

Redhorn

I've currently working through 10 man Ulduar content and I've been looking through Rawr to see what kind of gear upgrades I should be looking for. Something I have noticed and have read about is that Blood scales amazingly well with Ulduar gear upgrades while Unholy (Which I currently am) barely gets much increase based on what Rawr shows me. I should mention that in my current gear, when I swap from Unholy spec to Blood spec in rawr, it is supposedly way more dps in the first place.

However, a lot of sources have said that Unholy is still the top dps spec post 3.1 but based on what I see on Rawr, I'm left scratching my head on what to believe. While I have no qualms about switching over to Blood, I'm still curious how exactly does Unholy stay at the top? Do you need BiS gear from H Ulduar or is there just something Rawr can't calculate based on theory that states why Unholy is still top or is Rawr just not that accurate when it comes to actual raid performance?

 

WhiteMoose

Just got a quick question concering specs..

Assuming you have the gear, rotation, glyphs etc and all that.. what trees are the best?

I think it is..

1: Unholy (0-10-61)
2: Blood (51-0-20
3: Frost (17-51-3)

Unholy just being a small step ahead of Blood and Frost being quite far behind?

Also a link to a thread where this has been discussed more would be great, i've looked myself but havent found anything.

 

• frmorrison

You have the order about right, but Frost isn't that far behind. If you are having trouble with its dps, it is likely due to using the incorrect rotation/glyphs. Playing each spec properly will yield nearly the same dps raid buffed.

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t53319-a..._cycle_2_data/ has some information, but it is limited and not updated with the current specs/glyphs.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

blitzseed

Hey got a Sigils question, I’m using [Sigil of Arthritic Binding] right now yes I know get the naxx one but it never drops with me in the raid >< so saving Emblem to buy the [Sigil of Awareness] but till then I got [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] last night so my question is will [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart] be a better dps sigils over [Sigil of Arthritic Binding] till I get Sigil of Awareness?

 

Griefknight

Sigil of the Vengeful Heart is the best DPS sigil in the game right now, if you have it don't even worry about getting Awareness.

 

Stoical

This is wrong if you are Unholy, which both he and you are. See the Unholy thread for more specific discussion. The most recent specific numbers in there are from a post by Methods in mid-April, when he said "Difference = ~23 DPS in favor of Awareness WITH T7 (T8 = no contest and Awareness wins by far)." There are some later posts agreeing with that.

The blue sigil is pretty weak, so I'd imagine VH is better until you get Awareness, but I haven't run numbers or anything to confirm that. Not that it matters, though, you can buy Awareness with Emblems of Valor now, you don't need to farm Naxx for it.

 

Vexill

Hi guys, I found this comment by Pyros in Suno's thread. It was accepted by the thread as fact but I can't find any links to where this is shown in testing or math (even google has failed me)? Does anyone have the link or know which thread it took place in?

Failing a link to something I can read what I'm looking for is some validation on the spell deflection working on AE's comment. I know it worked on dragons breath, but would it work on something like a mage's blast wave or blizzard spell? How about Saph's blizzards?

Its possible that I'm just fundamentally misunderstanding something about spell types which is making the operation of this talent hard for me to understand?

 

Flippers

ok so i have been having troubles with my Frost rotation lately.
Im currently 17/51/3, glyphed for IT,FS,OB, w/o 4 pc t7

I was using this rotation:

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>FS dump
IT>PS>OB>OB>FS dump

however, SOME people are saying that this rotation is more appropriate w/o the 4 pc set bonus and with IT glyph

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>FS dump
OB>OB>IT>IT>FS dump OR OB>OB>OB>FS dump.

I was informed that the 2IT rotation gives me the RP i am missing from the 4 pc t7 set. Tbh, i tried going back and forth with this rotation and my original and i cant pin point just yet which one does better due to the unpredictable trinket/frost procs. In regards to the 3OB rotation, i find it hard to fire a 3rd OB w/o my diseases falling off. Going UP for the sake of 1 more OB in a rotation was not a choice of mine.

My only concern with my original rotation is that everytime i refresh my diseases on the 2nd part, i still have about 2-3 sec left on my current diseases. So i dont know if thats a bad thing

So can anyone give me a clarification on which rotation works best w/o the 4 pc set bonus? Thanks

 

Pyros

I haven't posted any actual testing screens or whatever, I did run a few tests post 3.1 to find out if it was still worth taking. The first few tests were simply getting a mage to cast Arcane Missiles on me(chanelling spell, can absorb any of the ticks) and Cone of Cold(non targetted AE, can absorb). After that I set up a MSBT alert on procs to see how often and on what it'd proc in Ulduar. It doesn't proc on Hodir Frozen blow melee attack, on Plasma Beam, on Fusion Punch. It does proc on kologarn eye beam, on YS green beams, on mimiron Heat Wave(tick based), on mimiron barrage(but you still die ^^), on mimiron bomb bots etc. I haven't tested your particular questions, but it works on Sif's blizzard on thorim hardmode so I'd bet it works on all blizzard types, and blastwave is probably not any different. The 9% is simply 20%(your parry in tanking gear) chance to proc 45%reduction averaged.

It's in my opinion a pretty solid talent, even though it's RNG so it might work on useless stuff and fail on good stuff. In a PvP setting, that'd be absorbing a tick of a fireball but not the fireball itself ^^.

 

Jetlaw

I have been a frost tank since WotLK release - But recent changes to the tree and recent changes to the tanking composition and requirements of each individual tank within my guild has pushed me to choose to respec Unholy for greater passive AoE add control with Death and Decay, Unholy Blight, Wandering Plague etc. while still maintaining the capacity to single-target to my standard 6.5k+ sustained single-target TPS in a single spec.

Armory may not be updated with my tanking gear as I was PvPing earlier, but base threat statistics are 8.5% expertise with 7.5% melee hit (raid buffed) and my primary tanking weapon is [Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned] + Stoneskin Gargoyle.

Firstly: For a standard Unholy main-tanking build (below) - What would be more beneficial between 3/5 Dark Conviction and 2/2 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization plus 1/5 Dark Conviction purely based on a maximum TPS standpoint.

No Ebon Plaguebringer because I'm not the only unholy DK in the raid and the debuff overlap is rarely if ever needed.

MMO-Champ Talent Calc Link

Secondly: I need two glyphs for maximum TPS. Considering my talent spec above (No Desecration so physically using plague strike is not required) which would offer me the highest overall TPS for a mostly static tanking encounter (Such as General which only requires a small amount of kiting, Hodir where I'll be using Frost Resistance gear etc.)

The glyph choices are;

[Glyph of Unholy Blight]
[Glyph of Disease]
[Glyph of Scourge Strike]
[Glyph of Rune Strike]

 

• frmorrison

If you have a tanking build with Dark Conviction and no Ebon Plaguebringer, that seems wrong. Both give 1% crit, but Ebon also gives a debuff (even if it is wasted, it still gives more than the other).

Rune Strike is a solid tps increase and UB sounds decent as well (to save some RP and GCDs).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Jetlaw

I remember mention once when I was testing out Unholy awhile back that I asked the other death knight why his damage was so disproportionately lower that night than previous. He replied that my Ebon Plague interfered with his, meaning he lost a portion of damage (Perhaps due to not having a third registered disease) - Which is why I didn't go down to it. I merrily assumed that Crypt Fever and Ebon Plague could be applied at the same time, but two Ebon Plagues could not. Considering I had talents that gave similar benefits (At least in the way of Dark Conviction) while not overlapping two Ebon Plagues which may still cause issues I partially assumed it would be more benefit for the raid group overall if I didn't spec into Ebon Plaguebringer so the debuffs wouldn't overlap.

Of course it might have been him slacking, but he's the ex-First Scarab Lord of my server so I trusted in what he said - Admittedly that was pre-3.1 so things may have changed since then. If that is infact the case I may well just throw all 3 into Ebon Plaguebringer then and it would immediately answer my question - Failing that, I supppose in hindsight looking at my question Two-Handed Weapon Spec's 4% two-handed damage would beat 2% crit purely based on the fact that (Unless I'm mistaken) disease crits can't tick so they gain nothing from either talent, Unholy Blight can't crit so that gains nothing from either talent and that leaves almost predominantly strikes which gain benefit from both but with a double-hit from two-handed wep spec. Of course it doesn't factor in increased damage from critical strikes nor does it factor in Death and Decay or Icy Touch crits, both skills which are not effected by two-handed wep spec.

At least I learned not to judge a book by it's cover on first glance, I can honestly say I completely overlooked the crit bonus in Ebon Plaguebringer though.

As for the glyph advice, I was erring on both glyphs too. I've almost never raided without my Rune Strike glpyh but there are so many more options for Unholy than Frost which is where my confusion came in.

 

coca

I'm normally Unholy and I had to go frost last night for Yogg attempts since our shaman and other DK didn't log on. Anyway I can look up the spec easily but the rotations have me baffled. I always thought OB did more dmg than FS but apparently looking at the crit numbers I had last night (17-19k for FS) it seems like that isn't the case. Does that mean I should prioritize FS instead of OB whenever it is available? Maybe I was doing something wrong but it seems like during last night's run my runic power was always capped. I was used to Unholy doing 2 disese (IT, PS) then OB OB BS BS FS FS FS FS and start the cycle again. Is this wrong? I'm just used to it w/ the unholy build but if people know any better please advise.

Should I glyph for HB? Should I run with only 1 disease (think single target boss dps only) or should I put 2 disease on the target and go from there? Any advice is much appreciated.

 

• Darkside

As Frost, Oblit without the new sigil will generally do more damage than Frost Strike (it depends a little on your group comp, especially for 10mans). Once you get the sigil, though, FS will be doing a LOT more damage than Oblit. However, this doesn't mean that you should always FS whenever you have the RP to do so. You should only use FS if you meet any of the following criteria:

(1) All your runes are on cooldown.
(2) You have a Killing Machine proc.
(3) You are or will be RP capped if you use a runic attack.

Otherwise it's more DPS to use your runes and then FS while they recharge. The only possible exception to this is if they boss is VERY close to dying (<3%), in which case you want to spam your highest damage attack as much as possible.

It's still up in the air as to whether or not 1 disease or 2 disease is a superior spec. At this point, I think it's largely fight dependent and you will probably see very similar results with both of them, assuming you can master each of their unique playstyles.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

coca

Thanks for the quick response. I have the sigil from XT maybe that is why i'm seeing larger numbers from FS. Other questions I have is should I glyph for HB or go for IT? Or maybe that is dependent on whether I play 1 disease or 2. I'll glyph for IT and go for 2 diseases. Should I HB whenever Rime procs? That does cost me a GCD so I was wondering if it is worth it. As it is now I always have some button to press whether it is OB or FS or BS but there doesn't seem to be any downtime and I just feel like I have more runic power than I can spend. I'm running in Blood btw maybe i can try it with Unholy presence instead maybe that'll change things.

For now I'll just go similair path with Unholy and replace DC with FS and SS with OB?