Pretty impressed by the results, I can only imagine what Frost would have done in that case.
It seems that everybody is posting Threat meters on Patchwerk.
I'm sure someone must've mentioned this before, but isn't Patchwerk a rather poor benchmark for measuring threat generation? He stands still, attacks abnormally fast for a boss, which means more Rune Strikes can be used for Optimal Threat Generation.
Does anyone have numbers from other fights? Like Sapphiron, Kel'Thuzad, or Malygos, fights where Rune Strike plays a less significant role.
The issue with these encounters is that there is a large amount of time where the tanks (or raid as a whole) are doing something that isn't tanking, which may skew the numbers (Malygos being one to screw with WWS completely). But, for the purpose of actually giving the data: Sapph25 KT25
Fights like Sapph, KT and Malygos aren't good benchmarks either because there are different phases in each fight which affects the results. If you can filter out the air phase on Sapph, phase 1 on KT and phase 2, 3 and vortex from Malygos then they'd be nice to compare.
Also keep in mind that Rune Strike is still limited by your weapon speed and haste, so you won't be using it for every dodge/parry.
The fact that Patchwerk is such a straightforward fight makes him the best benchmark because it eliminates most outside factors. I'll still agree that Rune Strike uptime is higher than most other fights though and Hateful Strike adds threat to the tanks as well (not sure online threat meters count that, though).
Loatheb is probably a good benchmark as well, assuming you don't take any spores.
Loatheb is probably a good benchmark as well, assuming you don't take any spores.
You could use it for benchmarking I suppose, but it would change the way you play the fight. Once all the DPS is spore-buffed my attention turns a bit and I start focusing on making things easier on the healers. Making sure I reapply diseases just before Necrotic drops so I can Death Strike through the gap, chaining cooldowns as cleanly as I can, etc.
It's not a particularly hard fight, so if you wanted to LOLTHREATLOL your way through it to get a stable benchmark that's certainly an option, but it's not as if we can look at someone's Loatheb numbers on any given clear and get menaingful information unless that was their intent.
Why wouldn't you use Faerlina, Maexxna, Grob, Saph? Sure, on Maexxna you aren't generating threat for 20 seconds of the fight, but that should be accounted for in WWS, on Saph for a little longer. On Grob all you do is tank and backpedal.
You could use it for benchmarking I suppose, but it would change the way you play the fight. Once all the DPS is spore-buffed my attention turns a bit and I start focusing on making things easier on the healers. Making sure I reapply diseases just before Necrotic drops so I can Death Strike through the gap, chaining cooldowns as cleanly as I can, etc.
It's not a particularly hard fight, so if you wanted to LOLTHREATLOL your way through it to get a stable benchmark that's certainly an option, but it's not as if we can look at someone's Loatheb numbers on any given clear and get menaingful information unless that was their intent.
But seriously, Patch isn't much better. I know I need to just IT/RS/autoattack for half the fight to prevent myself from ripping threat off our warrior MTing him. Plus, you don't need to pay attention to anything except building threat.
I do think that any "benchmark" needs to account for some degree of movement, since a tanking spec that lets you pull good threat only while standing still might not be the best for the many fights where you need to move. Movement makes GCDs more valuable, and thus makes Blood, for example, less attractive. I would probably say that Grobbulus is a pretty good benchmark, or Sartharion (without drakes, of course) for a less-movement-intense example.
Why wouldn't you use Faerlina, Maexxna, Grob, Saph? Sure, on Maexxna you aren't generating threat for 20 seconds of the fight, but that should be accounted for in WWS, on Saph for a little longer. On Grob all you do is tank and backpedal.
WWS considers DoTs as DPS time. This will artificially depress the stated TPS or DPS of any class with a DoT during periods of downtime. Thus, a DK's diseases will skew their TPS numbers. Faerlina has adds which can potentially skew the numbers as well. Since WWS counts DPS done on multiple targets in your overall DPS, I'm sure it does the same for TPS.
The same issues effectively exist in any fight that isn't tank and spank.
Originally Posted by Raedix
Movement makes GCDs more valuable, and thus makes Blood, for example, less attractive.
I don't understand this point. Movement makes using one's abilities more difficult, but that seems more a function of one's keybindings than one of the GCD specifically. Unless the tank actually escapes the boss entirely, one would expect a competitive tank to be able to continue their rotation even while moving (if slightly less precisely).
What I lack in intelligence I make up for in verbosity.
I don't understand this point. Movement makes using one's abilities more difficult, but that seems more a function of one's keybindings than one of the GCD specifically. Unless the tank actually escapes the boss entirely, one would expect a competitive tank to be able to continue their rotation even while moving (if slightly less precisely).
I think he meant moving out of range, which happens a lot if you actually have to move fast. Backpedalling works fine to keep a full cycle while moving, when you strafe to avoid a lava wall on drake tanking however, you're out of range for a sec or two depending on how far you go, which tends to throw the most complicated rotations out of the window, and blood is probably the most heavy GCD. As frost, you just howling blast or IT if you're out of range, and the rotation has no particular order and lower disease requirements(1IT every 18secs when you usually cast it every 10secs anyway).
As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.
All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.
Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.
Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.
Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks
Raid was stacked in their favour, and they had damage multipliers. You had no synergy and no multiplier to your threat. It's the way of malygos, dps will catch you in that circumstance.
The only relatively viable "tank-spank" mobs for comparison would be Loatheb or Sarth (no drakes). Even still, both have their flaws (Loatheb won't register heals outside of the healing-window, Sarth can have periods of no-contact-time depending on how careful you tank him). So, while I know people are giddy linking their TPS vs. "x-raid-mob" with "x-spec", the only real use is for us to analyse anomalies in your reports. ie. "My TPS was insane vs. Maexxna, what's going on?" or "I couldn't push more than 2k vs. Malygos, I'm not doing anything different... what up?". Link results if they have something interesting to contribute like demonstrating a synergy we've not yet considered, but otherwise they're just a wasted post =\
The only relatively viable "tank-spank" mobs for comparison would be Loatheb or Sarth (no drakes). Even still, both have their flaws (Loatheb won't register heals outside of the healing-window, Sarth can have periods of no-contact-time depending on how careful you tank him). So, while I know people are giddy linking their TPS vs. "x-raid-mob" with "x-spec", the only real use is for us to analyse anomalies in your reports. ie. "My TPS was insane vs. Maexxna, what's going on?" or "I couldn't push more than 2k vs. Malygos, I'm not doing anything different... what up?". Link results if they have something interesting to contribute like demonstrating a synergy we've not yet considered, but otherwise they're just a wasted post =\
Every boss that grants the same conditions for threat to every tank should be a worthwhile benchmark. Not for benchmarking THE threat of a given spec/gear, but comparing specs and gear on the same bosses. Yes, Patchwerk hits fast so Runestrike is at its maximum, but other bosses hit slow and/or do other things that favor a spec, a weapon or a special group composition. Obviously, deaths on Thaddius, aoe-threat on Faerlina/Maexxna/Noth and other things skew the possible single-target threat in reports.
I don't think it's that bad to get an overall idea of what certain specs are capable of while tanking all of naxx. And for the "interesting to contribute"-part: i still have to see that single-target threat superiority that blood claims to have.
As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.
All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.
Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.
Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.
Try a frost spec with 3 demo you should benefit from Coe who's just great for frost DK, if your second DK has Ebon plague it will also increase your magic damage for 13%
Frost is for me the best mono target build for the moment because it take adventage from physical buff ( +AP/Str will increase your disease and spells damage ) and a big part of magic buffs ( +x% magic damage etc ... ) and it will just become godly after the 3.1 if gargoyle and UB switch place in the skill three.
Personaly i'wont consider Patch as a good threat benchmark because you'll probably be under the effect of buffs for an half or more of the fight you don't have in other situation ( heroism 50% of the fight time on saph is not realistic, nor it is on sarth ).
I have a question, if i'm allowed, even if it's not on the subject the previous posts are talking about.
I see none of the favourite tanking builds prefered on these threads, including the spell deflecting talent 3/3 from blood tree. I really dunno why ppl are not including that, because usually the parry chance of a normal DK tank is arround 18-20 %, and with blade barrier is 30%. That means 30% to avoid 30% of an incoming spell attack. That alot i'd say, and it's even better then those 6% increased stamina and +6 expertise from VotTW. Am i the only one to think deflecting is an awesome talent wich is a must have?
For the comparison, use the values of avoidance a DK usually has: arround 45 % rough avoidance for melee; put on top of that 30% of spell deflecting. That beside the magic dumpage the DK has from the start.
I'd like some comments please.
We now have two threads discussing DK tanking, I don't really see the difference between the two, shouldn't we be closing this one? Since the other one has an OP that is planning to keep it up-to-date.
As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.
All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.
Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.
Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.
Yes, as a Blood tank you are a bit more dependent on things like Sunder Armor, but you are also more dependent on gear. Blood has the tightest rotation, and therefore is far more affected by misses, dodges, and parries. On top of this, Blood is more dependent on having solid expertise because it does not have Frost Strike as an attack that cannot miss, assuming you're hit capped.
Looking at your gear, you're low on hit (263), and low on expertise (26 MINIMUM). Trade out your def gems for hit, since you're over uncrittable as it is, and consider going Frost until you get a bit more expertise on your gear. All the mitigation and hp in the world is worthless if you can't hold the mobs on you.
I have a question about [Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight]. I was thinking of relying on it to get to 540def, and couple it with Rune of Spellshattering.
Now I'm not sure if Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle with a different sigil would be a better choice. Obviously I want to get as much health as I can for 10men Sarth3D.
Will it proc when Sartharion is immune?
Another one, will Sartharion be be effected with Improved Icy Touch?
I have a question about [Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight]. I was thinking of relying on it to get to 540def, and couple it with Rune of Spellshattering.
Now I'm not sure if Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle with a different sigil would be a better choice. Obviously I want to get as much health as I can for 10men Sarth3D.
Will it proc when Sartharion is immune?
Another one, will Sartharion be be effected with Improved Icy Touch?
The thing about using Icy Touch while he's immune is that it will start your auto-attack back up, which will trigger Twilight Torment, so you need to be very careful. It's generally just better to stop attacking all-together once he's immune except for Blood Boil to keep your parry up. That way you won't parry haste him or activate Twilight Torment and put more stress on your healers.
I'm curious what rotation are you guys using for the 23/45/3 spec.
I'm wondering about doing without ps as it doesn't contribute much.
IT/BS/BS/HB/FS/FS
HB/OB/IT/IT/FS/FS
Or mabe something like
IT/HB/BS/BS/FS/FS
HB/IT/FS/HB/IT/FS
Any tips?
Also any word on acclimation? It totally bugged out and not worth taking?
I'm using
IT, BS, OB, BloodTap, OB, (FS till you Frost Fever needs to be refreshed)
IT, OB, OB, BS, (again FS) - and repeat this till boss will be dead ;]
this rotation (with Glyphed Obli) gave me in VotTW Frost build best threat generation (about 40% crit on Obli, ~45% on IT, ~25% on RS)
priority on this is IT if Frost Fever needs to be refreshed (for higher dmg on OB and FS), IT when FF is still up if you have Glacier Rot. BS for changing Blood rune in Death rune (when missed repeat, you have to change 1 blood rune into death rune every rotation), and at the end OB and FS.
02/05/09, 2:25 PM
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