DK Tanking Discussion - Page 103

Kerspoink · 02/20/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by raiod

As far as i know hatefull strike can't crit!

Correct. Magic damage (from enemies) cannot crit, and all Hateful Strikes from Patchwerk are done as magic damage (even though they can be parried or dodged).

Illundai · 02/20/09, 12:17 PM

Patchwerk's hateful strikes aren't magic? They are just considered a special attack and mob special attacks can't crit.

krapniknil · 02/20/09, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Nightseye

This is probably off topic to the current discussion.

I've been reading a lot of tanking guides for Death Knights lately and every single one of them has some sort of statement that looks like "The number 1 priority for a tank is to hit the defense cap of 540".

Does anyone else think that this statement is very disputable?

Consider this scenario: A Death Knight with 515 Defense, 50% avoidance with Blade Barrier up, and 28,000 buffed HP is tanking 10 Man Naxxramas. The trash mobs in the instance range from lvl 80-81. The Death Knight is 25 Defense away from cap, which means he has a 1% chance of being critically hit by a boss, and 0.4-0.6% chance of being critically hit by trash. There is a 1 in 2 chance that a mob attack will land. This means that for every 500 attacks the Death Knight takes, a lvl 80 mob will be able to land a critical strike once, and a lvl 81 mob will be able to land a critical strike 1.5 times. (I hope I didn't screw up the simplest math ever, I was never very good at it -_-''). As for a boss (Let's assume he's MT'ing Patchwerk since everybody loves using this boss as a benchmark, and because our Death Knight is very poorly geared we will spare him the fate of Hateful Tanking), for every 200 attacks the DK takes, he will be critically hit once. Now this is a rough guesstimate, let's assume Patchwerk attacks twice in one second, and let's also assume that the raid's DPS blows and it takes a full 6 minutes to kill the boss. For every 100 seconds, Patchwerk attacks 200 times, resulting in one critical hit. Over 360 seconds, Patchwerk attacks 720 times. This means that over a course of 6 minutes, the tank will be critically hit 3-4 times. Patchwerk hits for roughly 4500 on plate, so let's assume the worst and the critical strike landed for 12,000 dmg. The Death Knight has 28,000 health.

With the way that our tanking gears are itemized, Naxx epics puts more emphasis on avoidance/stamina over defense rating, and heroic blues puts more emphasis on defense rating over avoidance (Hell, a lot of blue tanking gear has no avoidance on it, but it does have a load of defense rating). Following the rule number 1 of Tanking101, replacing blues with Naxx epics seems idiotic and foolish since it would take them well below the defense cap. But what is the real value behind reaching 540 defense in the first place? I understand the need to eliminate the element of luck from raid tanking, but in the case of death knights, doing so would mean sacrificing so much raw avoidance and stamina. I've ran into so many new DK tanks who refused to replace their current gear with what clearly is a huge upgrade in terms of stamina and avoidance because it was a huge downgrade for defense rating, all because the number 1 rule of tanking "Hit 540 defense first, then focus on other stats".

I guess with the release of Rune of Stoneskin Gargoyle, the issue is a moot point by now. Still, I was one of those naive DKs who refused to replace my blue shoulders with T7 because of the downgrade in defense. Is it really a wise idea to state that the most important thing to a tank is defense cap when clearly (at least from my point of view) is not?

I'm sorry if this was brought up before, but I really don't have time to skim through 102 pages of tanking discussion

.

With the addition of the +25 defense rune, every DK should be able to easily obtain 540 defense without any sacrifice. You shouldnt tank naxx10 the moment you ding 80 (though you probably could). Buy some of the crafted defense plate, the +43 defense rep cloak, and you should already be at 515. This takes at most ~12 hours of farming and you are ready to tank naxx10 pugs and get epic tanking loots.

I admit I used to be a guy tanking naxx10 with 520 defense. However I was doing it before RSG and I was dualwielding two good pre-naxx +defense 1handers. I was using a frost dualwielding spec that put out 4+k threat per second on single targets and had good survivability. It was totally possible to tank at 520 defense because I had 34+k hp buffed but now that we have RSG there should be no DK without a 2h weapon. RSG Should almost always be used because 25 defense is equal to +125 defense rating. 4% parry is equal to around +164 parry rating. So I guess when you look at the avoidance math SS is better. But dont forget the 2% Stamina, and also you need 540 defense period, there should be no reason you dont have it.

Static-KT · 02/20/09, 4:00 PM

Looking to get my Questions answered. If anyone has got the know how.

My guild MT's are pulling 8-10k threat as prot pali, bear etc. I'm only pulling 7k at best. I'm looking to make sure I min/max.

1. What trinket(s) are best for threat?

2. What piece of Valorous or other gear should be subbed for a dps/expertise item for threat? Has anyoone crunched the numbers perfectly yet?

krapniknil · 02/20/09, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Static-KT

Looking to get my Questions answered. If anyone has got the know how.

My guild MT's are pulling 8-10k threat as prot pali, bear etc. I'm only pulling 7k at best. I'm looking to make sure I min/max.

1. What trinket(s) are best for threat?

2. What piece of Valorous or other gear should be subbed for a dps/expertise item for threat? Has anyoone crunched the numbers perfectly yet?

7k is very good (single target). If you are getting 7k on patchwerk, be proud.

DWeidman · 02/20/09, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Static-KT

Looking to get my Questions answered. If anyone has got the know how.

My guild MT's are pulling 8-10k threat as prot pali, bear etc. I'm only pulling 7k at best. I'm looking to make sure I min/max.

1. What trinket(s) are best for threat?

2. What piece of Valorous or other gear should be subbed for a dps/expertise item for threat? Has anyoone crunched the numbers perfectly yet?

1. If you are at a spot to min/max - you shouldn't be asking this question. Tanks (generally) don't trinket for threat - and those who do don't ask this question.
2. Without specifics about your char - this is a (nearly) impossible question to answer. Your linked char is a 61 shaman.

The threat mechanic is pretty straight forward.

Static-KT · 02/20/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by DWeidman

1. If you are at a spot to min/max - you shouldn't be asking this question. Tanks (generally) don't trinket for threat - and those who do don't ask this question.
2. Without specifics about your char - this is a (nearly) impossible question to answer. Your linked char is a 61 shaman.

The threat mechanic is pretty straight forward.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Played a resto shaman (that 61 shaman was the original) from vanilla to sunwell (61 obviously not the sunwell one). Now looking to tank. Trinket seems to me to be the easiest and biggest upgrade of threat atm. (Been getting slightly owned by droprates of some other gear)

And if not trinkets then, what item is "best". And although normally sure it depends on other gear etc, there is normally, or at least there was for resto shamans pre wotlk, a set item slot (LW resto chest or one from Muru) that is 100% better than the tier piece and is normally used in coordination with the other tier peices on how to keep 4pc bonus and offset one item.

and by "normally used", I obviously don't mean end all be all. But what are the best choices generally accepted by these here forums.

I'm doing fine. Just looking to min/max with the best. First time registering for a forums to double check myself, but since it's a fairly new class I have no previous knowledge on my own gathered over time.

Edit: btw, Only reason I was comfortable with threat trinkets is because our healers are amazing. I didn't feel the need, especially as a DK, for another real "o shit" button.

Zerath · 02/20/09, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by guy6

A very broad question.

Guy6,

There's a *lot* of information you've missed if you've only read 45 pages. The reason you've seen this slow down is because the majority of us moved over to http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-b...nking_updated/ to continue our discussions.

We've all agreed upon the MT specs for every tree. From there, it's a preference of a few points here and there.

Gear is whatever you're needed in. Threat. Avoidance. Stamina.

Ask specific questions, please, not such a vague question that I can't even begin to fathom a response.

Originally Posted by Static-KT

Looking to get my Questions answered. If anyone has got the know how.

My guild MT's are pulling 8-10k threat as prot pali, bear etc. I'm only pulling 7k at best. I'm looking to make sure I min/max.

1. What trinket(s) are best for threat?

2. What piece of Valorous or other gear should be subbed for a dps/expertise item for threat? Has anyoone crunched the numbers perfectly yet?

1. Several of us use Mirror of Truth and Monarch Crab (gemmed with either Stam/Exp or Stam/Stam). I've also come to change out one of my "tank" rings for a "DPS" ring with EXP to push my EXP even higher for additional TPS.

I have yet to regem some pieces for TPS, I'm doing that this weekend.

2. Whatever you have and/or want to do. Test it. It's how we're getting our opinions.

Originally Posted by krapniknil

7k is very good (single target). If you are getting 7k on patchwerk, be proud.

I run 7k TPS on normal bosses. Notebook runs just sub-10k TPS on Patchwerk. 7k is low for 1.5-2m kills, so low that your DPS will surpass you rather quickly.

zeroavix · 02/22/09, 1:43 AM

Quick question that I haven't been able to find while searching on here, so I'm not sure if its been discussed already. Ive seen the cookie cutter frost spec without Imp. Icy Talons, and since it basically has what I want, I modified it a little bit, but my question is about Subversion vs Death Rune mastery. Im not sure which one would be better, because 9% to Oblit/BS would be nice, but the death runes would allow me to be more flexible, which helps alot while tanking.

Zerath · 02/22/09, 6:26 AM

Originally Posted by zeroavix

Quick question that I haven't been able to find while searching on here, so I'm not sure if its been discussed already. Ive seen the cookie cutter frost spec without Imp. Icy Talons, and since it basically has what I want, I modified it a little bit, but my question is about Subversion vs Death Rune mastery. Im not sure which one would be better, because 9% to Oblit/BS would be nice, but the death runes would allow me to be more flexible, which helps alot while tanking.

Depends your build and rotations. And within that rotation - what are those death runes going to do for you?

DRM impacts OB and DS (FU abilities) - in a deep Frost spec...what are you going to us from B-only talents? BB is the only thing that comes to mind but you have HB which can be used twice in a rotation (with waiting, of course.)

To answer your question flat out - Subversion is the superior talent.

(FYI- I use a Deep Frost non-IIT build.)

OccasusTuralyon · 02/22/09, 5:35 PM

Mmmm, i'm running as blood tank spec atm (ignore armory) and have been providing aboms might etc to guild who lacked it.

Anyhow, since we have a new 10% ap giver, i was thinking of spending my points elsewhere, and was curious as to how effective bloodworms are, in terms of healing provided

• Unsubtle · 02/22/09, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by OccasusTuralyon

Mmmm, i'm running as blood tank spec atm (ignore armory) and have been providing aboms might etc to guild who lacked it.

Anyhow, since we have a new 10% ap giver, i was thinking of spending my points elsewhere, and was curious as to how effective bloodworms are, in terms of healing provided

Threatwise, they don't cause any threat to you, but only damage based threat on themselves.

Healing wise, effectively useless. Highly unlikely that the measly healing output they give is useful in a raid environment. Also, unlike Rune Tap, the healing is not on demand, so can be at a time when your already at 100%.

Inamorata · 02/22/09, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

I run 7k TPS on normal bosses. Notebook runs just sub-10k TPS on Patchwerk. 7k is low for 1.5-2m kills, so low that your DPS will surpass you rather quickly.

That is simply not true. Here is a list of the fastest Patchwerk kills that been uploaded there.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

Quickly looking through the top 10 kills you will find that there is not a single dps breaking 6k tps, infact there is only a handful of dps doing more than 5.5k tps. Anything above 6k tps is not needed on Patchwerk.

Zerath · 02/22/09, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Inamorata

That is simply not true. Here is a list of the fastest Patchwerk kills that been uploaded there.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

Quickly looking through the top 10 kills you will find that there is not a single dps breaking 6k tps, infact there is only a handful of dps doing more than 5.5k tps. Anything above 6k tps is not needed on Patchwerk.

I have an issue with WoW Meter showing TPS incorrectly. A few of our WoW Meters showed me at 1.5k-2k TPS on the majority of bosses in Naxx when Omen showed 5-7k (during my Blood Tanking phase). Just an FYI about WMO.

Also, I don't use WMO or WWS to compare myself to other raids, I specifically watch my raid since they are what I need to throttle to. This week, if there is a 25man Naxx I'll watch our Enh/Fury Warriors they push 6k-7k dps (iirc), to see how much TPS they are pulling. Normally, they are riding our tanks very closely.

czokalapik · 02/23/09, 11:00 AM

Hi again, i remember somewhere on DK forum thread about tanking sarth 3d but can't find it atm, so i thing i can ask this here.

I was MTing Sarth3d in frost, but after Shadron lands and boss gets buff increasing his fire dmg i'm getting pretty hard hits (i have about 40k hp buffed before Vesperon's debuff), so i respeced into Unholy with AMZ, Bone Shield, SS, and some points in blood (imp rune tap, spell deflection, VotTW), i must say it was relief for my healer.

But i'm also thinking about Blood Tanking Sarth, 50% uptime of Vampiric Blood, better heals on me and higher hp pool, that's really good imo because keeping me on 100% while Sartharion have boosted Breaths is pretty much priority, and with VB it's little easier. IBF for 1-2 breaths, AMS for 1, Will of Necropolis as extra backup along with imp Rune tap and Spell Deflection (i've picked rune tap and deflection in my unholy build, so it doesn't make much difference).

My next sarth3d is in couple of days, so i hoped maybe some of you tried this already and can give me reasonable advice about blood and unholy tanking experiences on sarth3d

Thanks in advance

ZaoZao · 02/23/09, 1:44 PM

First: Please take BCB out of a Sarth MT sepcc, it doesn't belong there.

I'm tanking Sarth in the VottW/Lichborne/BSh specc, but I've heard enough about Blood tanking to know that it is effective enough to tank Sarth without major problems.
There's a more or less ongoing discussion about that in Buck's Thread so I won't elaborate too much about that.

Tl;Dr: Both are viable, pick the one you are comfortable with and/or check Buck's OP.

Mindaika · 02/23/09, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Inamorata

That is simply not true. Here is a list of the fastest Patchwerk kills that been uploaded there.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

Quickly looking through the top 10 kills you will find that there is not a single dps breaking 6k tps, infact there is only a handful of dps doing more than 5.5k tps. Anything above 6k tps is not needed on Patchwerk.

In addition, TPS =/= (necessarily) DPS. Many classes have some kind of built in modifier, or else reductions through talents. I believe (and may be mistaken), than in unholy/blood, DKs do 80% of DPS as threat, and 55% with Subverssion. Rogues do something like 75% if I remember correctly.

Trifle · 02/23/09, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by krapniknil

RSG Should almost always be used because 25 defense is equal to +125 defense rating. 4% parry is equal to around +164 parry rating. So I guess when you look at the avoidance math SS is better. But dont forget the 2% Stamina, and also you need 540 defense period, there should be no reason you dont have it.

Just to comment on this, 4% parry is actually about +196 parry rating. However, the really important thing about swordshatter is that the 4% parry ignores diminishing returns. So while 2% stamina is nice, generally speaking swordshatter is a much better runeforge for most things, assuming you can get the defense in other ways (which you should be able to)

Megaera · 02/23/09, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Trifle

Just to comment on this, 4% parry is actually about +196 parry rating. However, the really important thing about swordshatter is that the 4% parry ignores diminishing returns. So while 2% stamina is nice, generally speaking swordshatter is a much better runeforge for most things, assuming you can get the defense in other ways (which you should be able to)

SS is not "much better...for most things", it is (and will always be) better for exactly one thing: maximizing avoid. For other applications (EH, threat), other runeforges will be better.

Further, with the items currently available, "getting the defense in other ways" means either a) using inferior survivability items or b) gemming for defense. It is not immediately apparent that SS is better for survivability at the moment, nevermind "much better" in this respect. There is extensive discussion of the runeforges starting around page 80 of the thread and continuing on well into the 90s. The upshot is that they're both quite useful currently.

Kashir · 02/23/09, 6:52 PM

Just for an example, feel free to check my DK profile (Kashnite, Frostmourne). I'm sitting on exactly 540 defense with Gargoyle, because this allows me to equip double stamina trinkets and gem mostly for +sta. Hitting 32k (33.5k with VottW) health unbuffed in mostly 10-man gear is well worth the trade-off for certain encounters; Sartharion obviously.

If I were to go for a max avoidance set (at the expense of stamina), then I'm well over the defense threshold and can swap to SS. They're both useful in different circumstances.

Inamorata · 02/23/09, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

I have an issue with WoW Meter showing TPS incorrectly. A few of our WoW Meters showed me at 1.5k-2k TPS on the majority of bosses in Naxx when Omen showed 5-7k (during my Blood Tanking phase). Just an FYI about WMO.

Also, I don't use WMO or WWS to compare myself to other raids, I specifically watch my raid since they are what I need to throttle to. This week, if there is a 25man Naxx I'll watch our Enh/Fury Warriors they push 6k-7k dps (iirc), to see how much TPS they are pulling. Normally, they are riding our tanks very closely.

WoWmeteronline do take talents into consideration. Basically the bug you encountered is wowmeter thinking that you are dpsing and using the dps threat modifier instead of the tank threat modifier.

I think a Fury warrior got a 0.7 tps/dps modifier so a fury warrior doing 7k dps will only do 4.9k tps. Enha shamans got 0.7 tps/dps on physical attacks and 1tps/dps for Spellattacks. A Enha shaman doing 7k dps would be doing a little above 5k tps. If they are riding your tanks threat your tanks are crap and are only doing about 5k tps.

Swentik · 02/24/09, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by Funky

I just wanted to post up this build;

23/5/43

It's the spec our DK MT has been using for 25m Sarth 3d.

It maximizes HP and magic mitigation, and is highly specialized for heavy magic based fights. He has also used it on Malygos 25 man to great success.

Here's a link to his armory: Tsz

I highly respect him as a tank, and that's why I'm posting this here.

That is a very interesting spec for tanking casters, but i do not like it for several reasons. There are also several points in the unholy tree i think need to be changed.

First i would like to ask why you would get Outbreak over Ravenous Dead when you skipped every other AOE tanking skill in the tree?

Picking up talents other than Unholy Aura like OaPH even seems like better use of a talent point. Maybe even pick Dirge for the extra RP for threat or Gargoyle/Master of Gouls.

I feel the allocation of points into the Frost tree for Lichborne would also be better for survivability.

I am only 1 week into being level 80 and already have 28k HP, so it would seem the best part about the extra points in blood (the HP) does not seem hard to make up for with gear.

czokalapik · 02/26/09, 5:41 AM

Making up hp by gear is not the case, DK tank is best when builded for EH tanking (effective health) due to lower avoidance (no block).
Avg DK with 10ppl gear will have about 60-65% avoidance, that's 20-25% less than warrior or Paladin, so what you have to do is stack up stamina and stamina talents, so every 1sta will give you in frost presence 11,8 (or so) hp.
Atm i have 40k hp raid buffed (in 10ppl) and about 65% avoidance also raid buffed, and i'm only gemming for stamina (or exp for threat). In this way i am very good tank on bosses like Faerlina when doing achivement, or Sartharion 3d as a main tank.

High HP pool is better choice than any other tanks stats, and that's for most DKs and DK's healers.
I was healing in TBC, and it was always better for me when i was assigned for Druid, as he had really high hp, but lower avoidance, same goes for my healers in wrath, they say dmg on me is more predictable than on avoidance tank, and so it's easier to heal me.

You want lichborn for survivability, but to be honest it's not really "oh shit button" skill, this one is not predictable, and so it's good for lowering dmg by some amount, but not for surviving critical situations.
And when you want go for Veteran of the Third War (really good talent, and often frost or unholy tank builds have it) you can boost your tps (2h weapon spec, dark confiction, bladed armor, or subversion when you are in frost), or survivability (spell deflection - great for some encounters, imp rune tap - my personal talent of choice for Sarth 3d along with spell deflection).

Vengeful · 02/26/09, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by czokalapik

You want lichborn for survivability, but to be honest it's not really "oh shit button" skill, this one is not predictable, and so it's good for lowering dmg by some amount, but not for surviving critical situations.

I beg to differ.

As a NE Frosty, with Fridged Dreadplate and Sword shattering you can easily reach 63-65% avoidance raidbuffed. Blade barrier stacks another 10% Parry on top of that putting you at 73% to 75%. Lichborn gives you another 25% miss.

On a physical damage fight, like Faerlina achievement or Patches, Lichbourne is amazing if not completely overpowered.

Ranghar · 02/27/09, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Trifle

Just to comment on this, 4% parry is actually about +196 parry rating. However, the really important thing about swordshatter is that the 4% parry ignores diminishing returns. So while 2% stamina is nice, generally speaking swordshatter is a much better runeforge for most things, assuming you can get the defense in other ways (which you should be able to)

As far as I know, avoidance resulting from SG rune defense ignores diminishing returns as well.