I'd say 2/3 SoB is better than 2/5 conviction, SoB procs often, and it gives a lot of RP(10 per charge), 2%crit is a very very small amount really. Overall in the early blood threat talents, I'd put SoB at the top with BA and I guess 2H mastery, but everything else seems way below in terms of efficiency, especially per point. SoB specifically is much better than the tooltip says, it has no cooldown and gives 10RP per charge, so it is a huge income of RP, not as much as the old Bosanctuary obviously, but it's close enough that I'm not sure I'd like tanking without it. As for the least valuable in your 4 talents, it depends, one is a mitigation talent, so obviously it's terrible for threat. Can't say which is the least valuable between the other three, would need a good spreadhseet/TPS model to figure it out.

There's frost VotW builds, and I guess you can take RT with it, but really at that point you might as well just play Blood in my opinion, if you like impRT, Death Strikes are pretty fun, and while frost provides some better passive mitigation/avoidance, Blood provides an extremely high passive healing which compensates easily on pretty much every fight on my opinion, and is arguably even better on others.

KM is good for tanking for threat, it procs often enough and is especially good for waves type encounters(razorscale, thorim, yoggsaron P3) where you can proc a KM and keep it for next wave for a nice HB crit opener. Acclimatation is mostly trash in my opinion, if you want passive magic reduction, Spell Deflection seems like a much better choice, it procs off about everything but Plasma Beam on Mimiron and doesn't have a "ramp up" time.

About the glyphs, your questions are related. As my frost spec, I use HB glyph, it does not apply FF before the HB effect, so you don't get tundra stalker/diseased rot bonus on your first HB, it does proc iIT from what I heard though(don't spec iIT, we have enough shamans). With the HB glyph, using Pestilence glyph would be redundant since you can refresh IT in your rotation by just replacing an OB with an HB, and that's only when Rime doesn't proc. That makes the HB glyph pretty nice in my opinion. Also remember that HB doesn't do double dmg on FF mobs anymore, it does 100% of its damage everytime you cast it, so you don't need to HC before you HB unless you really want these ~20%more dmg from the other talents, which helps but isn't probably needed in most situations, considering how much threat HB is. As for IBF, it does give 10%more on your IBF, so that's a good boss tanking glyph at least.


I'd definitely get Morbidity in your frost spec if you end up AE tanking a lot, it does help nicely. In my frost spec, which is an AE tanking spec, I glyph HB and on AE packs, I just HB, DnD and Bloodboil, and sometimes fit an OB here and there. Since they nerfed Pestilence by making it do no damage, I think not relying on it is a good thing which is why I like the glyph. I use IBF OB and HB, but can replace IBF with a threat glyph(FS most likely, or RS whichever you prefer). I use Blood as my main spec however, because like you I love RT, and I'm a sucker for high hp pool and self healing.

Any thoughts on the new enchant, Blade Ward? On striking an enemy:

Apparently it stacks to 5, however I'm not sure how often that would happen. I've also been told that your next parry eats a charge, so a 5 stack would go to 4 on a parry. I'm fairly certain that Swordshattering is superior, but just thought I'd mention it since I didn't see it in either tanking thread. Could be interesting for those who want to DW tank I suppose.

Another question I have: thoughts on sudden doom from a tanking perspective? I'm not seeing many procs, and was thinking of switching it out for DRM. However DRM would likely increase the number of SD procs, since I would be HSing more: hence the paradox. I also find I DS more often than not, since the healing is pretty useful and it makes my rotation a lot looser (whereas a 4HS rotation feels pretty tight to me, what with the amount of RP I'm getting from SoB). I suppose I could move 3 points out of MoM, but I'm just not sure either would help much.

Before anyone comments on my RT Glyph, I switched it out for a KT kill last night since we were very melee heavy. Overall was very useful, and I'm liking the extra threat it generates when used after an AoE burst etc.

Well, here's the math I had done, but idk if it's right at all. There's a number of ways to think about it, and a lot of assumptions made:

SoB is doubly valuable in the case that the 10 RP / swing isn't a bug, so (for simplicity's sake) assuming you have SoB up every swing you'll get an extra rune strike every 4 swings if it IS bugged, 2 o/w. Given 25% haste from IIT and a 3.4 speed weapon [so 2.55 speed], that equates to 10.2 {5.1} seconds. Granted, that's before any other haste buffs / increases from equipment, and also assumes you always have Rune Strike available, but I'm just looking for a ballpark atm. This is where things get a bit more shaky.

Now, assuming 2/5 DC is a direct 2% increase in DPS, then (I believe) it'll also be a 2% increase in TPS. Again, for simplicity's sake, assume 5k TPS. This means we're getting 100 TPS from DC. In order to match, that, an extra rune strike every 10.2 {5.1} seconds would have to match that (or better if we're doing more TPS on average). x / 10.2 {5.1} = 100 TPS, so x = 1020 {510} threat. Given that rune strikes on average are over 2k (which means 3k threat post-RS modifiers and pre-anything else [ie frost pres.]), I'm almost positive that the assumptions that we always have a rune strike up and that we always have SoB active aren't going to triple the amount of threat needed to match the TPS from DC (well, less than triple if it's more like 7-8k, in which case you'd need more along the lines of double), but since I also feel like I didn't do the math right I figured I'd ask.

If anyone does have a spreadsheet they've been working on, please let me know. Also, I was just testing 2/3 SoB in the UH + VotTW build and noticed something very interesting that I hadn't seen anyone mention: while the talent only provides the next 1-3 swings with bonus RP, the actual BUFF is capped at 3, meaning if it procs 2-3 times in rapid succession (and if there's no ICD), it's actually more beneficial to have LESS points in SoB than have it capped at 3. This is something else I'd have to do the math on, as well as find out if SoB had an ICD, but I think that SoB as a talent as a whole for DKs is actually optimal at 2 points instead of 3 unless you're in a fight where you're not having as many hits directed against you (ie won't proc in the 7.5 or so seconds it would take to use up all of the charges with maxed SoB).

See, I like frost a lot as a general playstyle. I like FS RP dumps, HB, etc, but my guild also doesn't have an enh. shaman, so I spec frost for IIT (we're pretty melee heavy as far as overall DPS goes). I've never really been a huge fan of blood, but the amount of benefit that going up to VotTW + MoB in blood provides is really hard to overlook. Even just the 6% stam alone would be tempting enough without MoB and the expertise to make up for losing TS and RoR.

My problem is that I never notice when KM procs, so I'm not using it optimally enough. I probably end up using it on IT more than anything to keep IIT up. I use RuneHero to track runes, so I know when rime procs (although it would be better if the rime indicator extended outside of the RP indicator so you could tell when you had rime if you also had full RP, but that's a different discussion altogether), but it has no KM indicator (unless I missed it somewhere) so I'm SoL atm. I picked up deathchill basically for that on demand KM which I find to be better than procced KM (although I'm tempted to put a point in it just for the chance of a free proc). I guess I just need to play around with things a bit more and find something that fits with my playstyle...

Well, GR + TS is 35% more damage for HB, unless I'm missing something. 20% is pretty nice to have in and of itself (especially if you're pulling w/ HB, it's a much bigger difference in AE threat right off the bat), but 35% would be a bit more critical. The IBF change is definitely nice, gonna have to find a way to work that in...

I think the parry is subject to DR, making it inferior to our own runeforge.

Sudden Doom

Having death runes gives you more flexibility. I don't think Sudden Doom is an absolutely necessary tanking talent. It is a purely threat talent (~48% chance to launch a death coil every 20 seconds), but whether that is worth 3 talent points, I'm not really sure. You still want to probably DS even with death runes (multiple mobs being an exception, i.e. Razorscale/Thorim phase 1) due to the healing.


2% crit is not 2% increase in DPS. Just wanted to point that out.

Just throwing out some specs that I've had a lot of success with in Ulduar:

5/56/10

Yes, I do take Hungering Cold and Chillblains 3/3. They are very handy for the talent pt expenditure in Ulduar when you need to kite (HB glyph makes it retarded easy). I dont take any of the IIT line besides the first three, and BoTN is imo pretty worthless from a tanking perspective considering how many points you have to dump into it. My favorite tanking build.

24/5/42

Spec I use for tanking Mimiron, or any fight similar in style to Sarth +3 (read: soaking huge mostly magic hits). A lot of the stuff near the end of unholy is preference; I spec permaghoul in order to make the Auriya pull easy, desecration is nice if I have to kite adds. The Crypt Fever line is malleable depending on your raid setup; our raid always has 1-2 boomkins so I don't worry about bringing the 13% magic dmg (and on aoe heavy fights we always bring a full unholy dps). Not a huge fan of the spec in terms of playing it but 15% run speed in frost and the huge hp pool/magic soaking abilities is hard to beat for some fights.

About SoB, another assumption that is made from the old version/tooltip wording and that isn't right is, SoB actually procs of specials too, meaning you can expand all the charges in 3secs, not necessarily ~10. As I said, the ability is MUCH better than what the tooltip implies, you need to try it to find out. I don't believe it's a bug either, since it was in the patch notes, only the tooltip doesn't reflect the actual ability.

About KM, just get an addon to track it, either use MSBT/SCT to give you alerts when it procs, have Needtoknow or Tellmewhen or Power Auras or any event alert addon like this show it, it's really not hard. I use power auras to display procs like this, as well as duration left on my IBF/spec cooldown and so on, it's very useful.

Forgot Glacier Rot was that high, but yeah even though it's better to apply FF before HBing, HC doesn't work on a lot of mobs, and using IT>Pest before a HB just totally nerf your initial threat anyway.

Glyph of Disease is terrible for Frost specs more than any other because you are AoE applying a disease in the process of your normal damage rotation, and also because there are so many good glyphs for Frost. If you're speccing specifically for tanking trash then it might be worthwhile over something like the FS or IBF glyphs, but I don't think there's enough brutal AoE trash anywhere in the game right now to warrant that.

There's no need for a separate frost DK tanking guide, especially if it's going to include some of this same dubiously valuable information.

If you're missing on the KM proc's your absolutely missing the free threat. I use Power Auras. I find it simple after you set it up, and it automatically detects the buff and plays a circle animation around my character. I know immediately when I have it and begin to plan for the strike its going to be used on. For multiple mobs I resist the urge to blow rune power with FS and keep hitting OB til I proc rime (again, Power Auras helps me know when this happens by providing animation and symbols around my toon) or til HB comes off cooldown then blast them all with a crit HB. For single target I just hit FS and keep going. KM procs work best on FS and HB and I hated in 3.0 when I lost one to IT due to rotation.

@Axeurface
Adding 1 GCD can be too much sometimes. With HB glyphed, I have deathchill and use it on opening pulls of mobs with HB. This gets me the snap aggro I need so they stand in my DnD. Followed up by a BB, this insures all the aoe threat I need before HB comes off CD and I hit them again with FF attached already for the extra damage. It makes the rotation a very simple DnD, HB, BB on pull that comes clean for OB, HB, BB, BB on follow. I don't disagree with you about how your going about it with pest, but I just don't like blowing runes for no threat. The small threat you get bonus by waiting to blow HB shouldn't be the same as a single BB you could have used instead.

Without digging deeper, I can see how you would say this. However, when you have those extra Frost and Undeath runes available, you get to use an additional obliterate on each rotation. That's a huge amount of additional threat on your primary target, more runic power generated in a single GCD, and an additional chance to proc Rime and thus earn another free Howling Blast. If you don't get to use an additional howling blast because Rime doesn't proc, you get an extra GCD to use for a Frost Strike. I've been doing this for a week now and when the procs do work out the way I explained above, I am frequently holding bursts as high as 10-11k TPS for 10-15 seconds on my primary target and having no problem keeping aggro on the AoE targets.

It's a much more complex system and even though you are "wasting" a GCD dealing no damage to AoE apply diseases, it works out to be a HUGE threat boost over applying Frost Fever with Rune of Howling Blast. At least in all of my experience testing it. The benefit isn't from a better use of GCD's, but in better use of another resource - Runes.

I assume a lot of DKs use Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight? This makes Glyph of Diseases a bit useless.

Not only that, but I am perfectly able to keep disease on all mobs with 1 blood rune without using glyph of disease if its multiple mobs. All you gotta do is tab pest and it refreshes on all but your target. When thats getting low, tab and pest again, refreshing all but your new current target. I can do this with every other blood rune, saving the other one for BB and using HB and OB for the 2xUF runes.

well, I was mainly talking about stuff like the big adds on XT, the 3 mobs on freya, the defenders on the cat lady, any trash that doesnt die right away (the dozen of tiny flowers on the way to freya). it also works well on kologarn w/ his arms.

Perhaps theres something im overlooking but why isnt 24/5/42 a more popular build? here it is...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9806

I mean, you pick up Votw and MoB (gain 6% stam/str and 1 expertise) in exchange for slightly less utility, a handful of crit and 10% damage compared to a build 50 points into Unholy. Seems like a pretty solid choice.

I like that build but what about putting the points more like this http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9806

You loose 1% crit overall but gain Spell Deflection instead and some overall damage. I think I'll try that out in Ulduar tonight.

Maybe I should clarify my position on Glyph of Disease: I'm primarily MTing and am mostly concerned with my threat on bosses. My point is that it's a very nice threat buff on the boss and doesn't cost me enough in terms of AoE threat that I have any issues whatsoever on trash (which wouldn't matter anyway since we do have other tanks with significant AoE threat gen).

I was using that for progression originally, but frankly... it's extremely boring to play. No fun procs, etc. etc.

I would switch back in a heartbeat if I needed the buff, but so far my gear and current spec have been fine.

Glyph of Disease is appealing, true, but I don't see how a Frost tank can justify using it over OB/FS/RS/IBF, or maybe even HB (personally I don't believe HB is worth it unless you exclusively tank trash or adds).

For people using the HB glyph, the comparison should be a "diseaseless" rotation - i.e., no Icy Touch used and no Blood Plague applied at all, in favor of an extra Obliterate per cycle.

I'll do some testing as I'm pretty curious as to whether using the Disease glyph actually works out to a single-target threat buff - don't you need 2/2 Epidemic to make that work, though?

From 3.1.2 Patch Notes


Am I reading this right? Blood spec DS will heal me for 15% of my max health every time it hits?

Thats pretty insane..

They made the change (to improved DS) to balance blood with unholy in terms of healing since unholy gets 15% healing each DS. Doesn't make much sense really, unless blood is lagging behind unholy mitigation wise (ie blood takes more damage), because DS is now the SS of blood (so we will are using it every time), while only being an 'oh shit' button for unholy. Either way frost gets the cold shoulder.

Perhaps frost doesn't 'need' the extra healing due to their 3% extra melee avoidance and 2% extra damage reduction? I like the change, but 6k healing ds spam seems a bit strong for consistent use (as a 40k raid blood tank). I mean, perhaps this was being done in 3.08, but I've been able to DS heal my way through some heroic bosses after my group died (in 3.1). I've taken loken down from 20% alone, and have taken the first boss in H Nex down from 50% or so, alone (I pug these a lot, and these are fights where the dps has to move a bit etc so idiots tend to die).

While I'm here, any info on the threat generated by DS healing? Just healing aggro x frost presence multiplier? I didn't notice it mentioned anywhere, but may have missed something. Also how do I measure TPS using a target dummy? I can't seem to get omen 3 to work with it, and recount only gives me DPS.

Threat generated by healing is the same as normal healing, so yeah it's like healing amount /2 and spread evenly through all mobs, which is then multiplied by your frost presence. It's not huge but it makes up for the damage lost from using DS over OB pretty much. As for TPs and dummies, you don't, first because dummies don't hit back so you can't measure Rune Strike threat which makes up for like ~40% of your total threat, but omen should work for the rest, check the options, else you just take your DPS and do the math with frost presence.

I keep an IBF glyph in case I need it for a specific fight at some point, but so far have had no such need. I chose to use Disease over RS on the theory that the threat from twice as many Rime procs will be greater than the threat from 10% more RS crits.


Personally, I'm not using [Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight]. I would be picking one up now that I have a mammoth (my priorities are straight), but I would rather just wait and use [Sigil of Deflection] as my avoidance Sigil. For this reason, this has never been a thought for me.


I had been doing it with 2/2 then I changed with the free respec last week because I read somewhere about how 18 sec's was a more ideal disease length for Frost. I am probably going back to 2/2 next time I get unlazy and decide to respec. It works fine with 1/2 until a pestilence misses. I also have to wait to use Rime proc sometimes because I need to be hitting pestilence sooner. Then my rotations screwed up for the whole fight.

That sounds very optimistic. I tried to find some WMO meters for frost tanks to look at what percentage of threat really comes from Howling Blast. If you have one I'd like to view it.

First off, it's not twice as many rime procs, because you're not refreshing diseases EVERY cycle, it's every other cycle, so 1/3 more rime procs, vs 10% more threat from RS.

So, VERY rough math, but if RS is about 40% of your threat, RS glyph adds about 4%
Rimed Howling Blast would have to be 12% of your total threat, for 30% extra to be a net gain over the RS glyph.

I don't have the math to prove my statement at this point, however I'd be willing to bet that Rimed Howling Blast is not 12% of your total threat, and therefore you are at a net threat loss.

Now, that aside, I do use Glyph of Disease, and will continue to do so, NOT because I'm trying to convince myself that it's somehow better for threat, DPS, mitigation, or anything else, but because it simplifies my rotation a lot, and leaves me spare brain cells available to deal with other things.