That is similar to my build and I favor 1 in Epidemic and 2 in SoB. SoB is very nice and I don't think Morbidity is worth it for Frost unless you go 3/3, but an extra 3 seconds on diseases is always handy.

Let me state this again. I have no problem holding threat with this build.

I just tanked 10 man OS as the MT. Had our top dps pulling mid to high 3k dps. On the pulls of dragon guards I was able to easily keep all four on me using AOE and rune strikes. Nobody pulled aggro off of me during these pulls.

I simply used the example of soloing heroic bosses to show the survivability increase, not to indicate that the pug group I happened to be with during that run was inadequate. We finished the rest of HoS without another wipe.

If you are against this build, please offer some contructive feedback and alternate specs with the math to back it up because this spec is keeping my healers happy, and myself and my raid alive. Threat levels are good, and it takes a rather terrible healer to let me die.

"Top" players in an Ulduar raid can be putting out two, maybe three times the amount of DPS that the players in your 10-man OS were doing, more on some fights.

As long as you are healing bosses to death at that level of gear, your spec will be sufficient. As the DPS in your raid gets better and gets more gear upgrades, the threat provided by that build will be insufficient to hold threat off of them. This is the type of raid we're talking about in these threads.

Your build has two problems:

First, your distribution of talents between the trees makes no sense whatsoever.

Second, your talent choices within the Blood and Unholy trees make no sense whatsoever.

You aren't helping yourself by then bragging about how you can hold agro over someone doing 3k DPS. People use this forum to find out how to hold agro over a mage pulling 12k+ dps because of some encounter specific buff. The fact that your build is sufficient to overcome dated content doesn't mean it is at all well thought out.

Edit: You should also replace the STR and Parry gems you are currently using in your tank gear.

Let me state what everyone else is saying:

You will have threat problems with that build.

You aren't talking to a PuG who doesn't know DK tanking mechanics -- we all Tank as DKs -- and we can tell you that you *will* have threat problems with the build you are running.

Hybrids builds took fatal blow with dual specs - because there is a better build out there for whatever your hybrid is *trying* to do...

Sorry.

Your spec is trying to do too many things at once.

On a Pale Horse and Night of the Living Dead shouldn't be in your build - the former is good for a farming build, and the latter is good for a DPS build. Ravenous Dead and Necrosis don't add anywhere near the threat that Dark Conviction, Might of Mograine, or Blood Gorged would add. You should find that the cleave from HS, combined with a glyphed D&D, 3/3 morbidity, and some Blood Boil is just peachy for holding AOE threat - you don't need UB at all.

Butchery is not necessary; you get enough runic power from elsewhere. Mark of Blood is bad because it both scales negatively with avoidance, and because it provides insufficient healing overall, if you think it through logically. Imp. Blood Presence is similarly useless. If you really wanted to reduce incoming damage, you should pick up imp. icy touch (6% reduced damage on you for 3 points is huge).

Enchant the rest of your gear. Never gem with parry gems or strength gems in a tanking set (actually, never gem with parry gems ever, in any gear set). Work towards getting defense capped, so you don't need to rely on the proc from your sigil. Get rid of the Dark Command glyph and pick up the imp Rune Strike glyph (you shouldn't need the DC glyph, and since you should be mashing RS, the glyph will increase your threat a bunch). Get rid of the Rune Tap glyph and pick up either the Vampiric Blood glyph, DS glyph, or IBF glyph- all are much better bang for your buck.

As a blood tank I usually struggle a bit with the initial aoe threat, special if the dps start to aoe right of the bat.
Pretty much every one suggests a DnD > IT > PS > Pest > BT > BB together with a glyphed DnD and 3/3 Morbidity.

Unless I'm reading it wrong Morbidity doesn't actually add threat but it allows you to DnD more offen, from a threat point of view wouldn't 3/5 Black Ice be better, since it would boost DnD, BB and Blood Plague?

Being able to use DnD twice as often should get you more threat than increasing its damage by 6%. The 6% extra damage isn't going to prevent DPS from pulling agro if they go nuts on the pull anyway.

Maybe TankadinTPS may fill your needs.
I'm not sure if it is 100% accurate since the addon-programmer plays a paladin (obviously from the name =)), but it gives me very similar result like Rehfelds TPS-Calc.
The latter is to analyze threat based on a WWS-log.

The best solution really is to have another spec to do AE tanking if you're gonna tank bosses as blood. You can work around that somewhat, but overall blood is still crap for AE and I found it better to specialize. If you want a spec that does everything, you probably should switch over to frost or unholy, their base AE is usually solid enough without requiring additional tricks/talents(for frost, you do need to go 51 for HB though, which arguably is additional talents).

Thank You Belzi.ET.. i will try it soon...

for instance with my Hunt i'm nearly twice the threat per second of our best Tank...

2 conclusions :
1. I rox hunting... but I don't think so
2. My Tanks suck... but I don't Hope so

I have serious doubts (based on my own experience and theorizing) that Blood is anywhere near as good as some people make it out to be, but as far as Blood builds go, yours seems mostly fine to me. I would however drop Spell Deflection for Sudden Doom. Spell Deflection is very RNG, and it also doesn't work on things you'd really like it to, like Fusion Punch or (iirc) Plasma Blast. On the other hand, Sudden Doom isn't amazing, but you do have DRM, so I assume you are Heart Strike spamming, and it's extra threat.

So I'm thinking of trying a frost tank or unholy tank spec.. how would you critique these two?

Frost http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...3&version=9757

Unholy http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9757

They both have their advantages. Frost has alot more "oh shit" buttons, while unholy obviously is superior with multiple mob threat (which is what I like doing best)

Actually, if I were to respec I'd probably drop Death Rune Mastery. That was more of an intellectual holdover from when I used to tank with Frost or Unholy specs, which absolutely need death runes. I find that the only time I ever Heart Strike spam is in phase 4 of Mimiron and when we're killing trash.

Spell Deflection could probably stand to go, but I don't really know what I'd replace it with. There aren't any other tanking talents in range with just those 3 points. I could do Bloodworms, I guess, but I'd rather not because this spec is my soloing-instances-for-cash spec too and I can't do Hakkar with Bloodworms.

Those points could go into Morbidity/Epidemic for AE threat situations/quality of life, or Butchery/Subversion for minor ST threat increases. Ravenous Dead is also probably viable. Spell Deflection is an aggressively mediocre talent in my opinion.

About Spell Deflection, bosses in Ulduar where it might help:

Ignis:
# Slag Pot - Charges a random target and incapacitates them, inflicting 5,000 (Heroic: 10,000) Fire damage every 1 second for 10 seconds. If the target survives, they will gained 100% (Heroic: 150%) haste for 10 seconds. (maybe? Only if you are offtank and very minor anyway.)

Razorscale:
Phase1
# Devouring Flame - Inflicts 8,788 to 10,212 Fire damage to a player, and additional 8,788 to 10,212 Fire damage every 1 second to anyone within 6 yards of the initial impact, for 25 seconds. (First hit)
# Fireball - Inflicts 12,025 to 13,975 Fire damage.
(these are both random targeted)
# Dark Rune Watchers - Cast Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt, hitting for ~10,000 and ~5,000 Nature damage respectively. (interruptable)

Phase2
# Devouring Flame - Inflicts 8,788 to 10,212 Fire damage to a player, and additional 8,788 to 10,212 Fire damage every 1 second to anyone within 6 yards of the initial impact, for 25 seconds. (first tick, random target)

XT-200:
none

Iron Council:
# Fusion Punch - Inflicts 18,850 to 21,150 (Heroic: 35,000) Nature damage to his target, and deals additional 15,000 (Heroic: 20,000) Nature damage every 1 second, for 4 seconds. (maybe??)

# Chain Lightning - Inflicts 4,625 to 5,375 (Heroic: 6,013 to 6,987) Nature damage to its main target, and arcs to nearby players, dealing 50% (Heroic: 20%) more Nature damage to each successive target. (interruptable)

# Lightning Whirl - Inflicts 4,713 to 5,287 (Heroic: 7,069 to 7,931) Nature damage to random players every 1 second for 5 seconds. (interruptable)

Kologarn:
# Focused Eyebeam - Two of those will be cast simultaneously, each inflicting 2,775 to 3,225 (Heroic: 4,163 to 4,837) Nature damage, and following their targets. (Not casting on melees, afaik)

Auriaya:
none

Mimiron:
Phase1
# Proximity Mines - Drops 8-10 Proximity Mines around MK II. The mines will inflict 25,000 damage to anyone who walks over them. (You shouldn't hit those anyway)
# Napalm Shell - Inflicts 7,540 to 8,460 (Heroic: 9,425 to 10,575) Fire damage instantly and an additional 4,000 (Heroic: 6,000) every 1 second, for 8 seconds. This spell will always attempt to hit targets farther than 15 yards of MK II. (melee range...)
# Plasma Blast - After a 3-second cast, MK II will channel a stream of plasma for 6 seconds, inflicting 20,000 (Heroic: 30,000) irresistible Fire damage every 1 second to his target. (This might work)

Phase2
# Rapid Burst - Inflicts 1,414 to 1,586 (Heroic: 1,885 to 2,115) Spellfire damage to a random target every half-second for 3 seconds.

Phase3
You should take no spell damage here.

Phase4
# Mines again
# Hand Pulse - Inflicts 4,242 to 4,758 (Heroic: 6,598 to 7,402) Spellfire damage to a random target and all enemies between the caster and the target. (Not sure about this, looks like aoe spell)

Hodir:
# Frozen Blows - Reduces Hodir's physical damage by 70%, but grants each of his attacks 31,062 (Heroic: 40,000) additional Frost damage, for 20 seconds. Enemies take 4,000 additional Frost damage every 2 seconds for the duration of the spell. (Great for this, if it works)

Thorim:
Phase1
# Runic Lightning - Strikes an enemy with a blast of runic lightning, inflicting 7875 to 10125 Nature damage. (10 player: 6563 to 8437 Nature damage) (interruptable)
# Holy Smite - Smites an enemy, inflicting 7650 to 9350 Holy damage. (interruptable)
# Lightning Brand - Shocks the target for 3500 Nature damage to the target, and increases Nature damage taken by 40% for 20 sec. (Stacks to 99)

Phase2
# Chain Lightning - Strikes an enemy with a blast of lightning that inflicts 3700 to 4300 Nature damage. The bolt will arc to additional nearby enemies, inflicting 100% more Nature damage to each successive target.

Freya:
# Storm Lasher - Attacks with Stormbolt for 6,013 to 6,987 (Heroic: 8,788 to 10,212) Nature damage. Also casts Lightning Lash for 5,088 to 5,912 (Heroic: 6,938 to 8,062), which hits up to 3 (Heroic: 5) targets

General Vezax:
none

Yogg-saron:
Phase1
# Dark Volley - Hurls missiles of dark magic, inflicting 8500 to 11500 Shadow damage and wounding nearby enemies, reducing the effectiveness of any healing by 25% for 10 sec. (might work since they seem like direct hit)
Phase2
# Malady of the Mind - Inflicts 5000 Shadow damage and causes the enemy target to run in horror for 4 sec, then attempts to jump to another enemy within 10 yds. Also reduces Sanity by 3%.

Algalon:
Seems to do only AoE damage

# Phase Punch - Massive blow that inflicts 8788 to 10212 damage and slowly fades the target to another plane of existence. (maybe arcane)
----

That should be about it, please correct me if I missed something or was wrong with something. But looking at this list, 3 talent points for Spell Deflection seems very wasted.

Edit; failed a bit with naming and added Algalon

Those are both on Yogg-Saron. Spell Deflection would be useless on Vezax. Its main benefits would come from avoiding aoe and minor raid damage, which applies to most fights (Hodir/Thorim/Freya/Mimiron/Yogg/Ignis/Council). Afaik it does not work on Frozen Blows or Plasma Blast; it may help against Fusion Punch though.

Sorry, fixed the naming typoes.

About AoE, the talent clearly says it only works against a DIRECT damage spells, but I haven't tested it in practice so I might be wrong.

It does work on most AoE damage spells (Sarth's breath, Ignis' flame jets are the only examples that come to mind atm). The question is exactly what it counts as spells. I don't believe it works on DoTs, but the initial damage on something like Fusion Punch might be a different story.

It doesn't work on Fusion Punch(initial hit, might work on dot but always dispelled so hard to tell), Plasma Beam and Hodir frozen blows melee attacks, which are the 3bigs you'd want it to work on. However it works on about everything else, the wording is just bad, it works on pretty much any source of damage that's magical and hits you. It works on Heatwave for example, which is a dot. It works on blizzard(sif on thorim) which is a random AE. It works on the AE part of frozen blows(the 2k ticks) etc. It's not a life saver ability because it doesn't work on the huge magic dmg attacks some bosses have, which I guess is intended, but it works on a lot of smaller things that will hit you at some point.

On yoggsaron for example, if you're tanking the Guardians in P1, it works both on their AE and their explosion when they die. Also work on ticks of Sara's debuff, on the green beams during P2, probably on the tentacles curse of doom(can't say I've noticed that one since it's quite rare a curse ticks to the end). On vesax it does nothing because there's like, no magic damage(it can work on the fire stuff if your melees suck at interupting, but the dot isn't the dangerous part on this debuff anyway). Mimiron is another good example of it working on tons of things. It doesn't work on Plasma Beam and might not work on Shock Blast(can't say I have tested), but it works on Napalm Shell, Heatwave, Land Mines, Bomb Bots and Barrage even though that's not very useful to know(you'll absorb a tick but you get killed by the 4 other consecutive one in the same second ^^). Might work on rocket but won't save you.

For arguments sake, that Rune Tap that is 0% overheal probably resulted in 90% overheal for the healer that was casting on you. The proper way to RT is to watch your incoming heals well, then pop it if a bunch of heals land and you dip immediately after. Its about threat assessment. Just because your low on HP doesnt mean the heals not coming. If the heals JUST landed and you get punked and end up at half health immediately, then pop it... its way more effective that way. Don't overuse it to boost your self-healing though, if you do that it'll be on cooldown when you really need it.

Thank you for the patronizing and entirely unnecessary lecture. What makes you think that isn't what I was talking about?

And, for the record, if you're low enough on health to die to the next hit but high enough that a Rune Tap will take you out of the immediate threat range (a larger range than it sounds in most cases), it's far better to eat a little overheal from the healer than it is to risk death from a just-slightly-too-slow (or too weak) heal. The healers would agree.