That wasn't an unncessary lecture. I was explaining how best to use the ability. Most tanks probably don't even monitor their incoming heals. I call those bad tanks. Obviously the best way to use RT is to put you out of threat range, but you are most vulnerable after you dip AND your heals havent gone off and it only comes up once every 30 seconds. I would say most 30 second intervals have at least one good time to use the ability, but its stupid to argue you're doing 0% overheal. All your doing is pushing overheal off onto someone else. Overheal isn't a bad thing at all unless you should have been healing someone else in the first place. Not so, when you're talking about MT healing.

I switched to DK tanking after doing hardmodes on my resto shaman getting up to 4/5 t8.5, I've seen both sides of the scenario.

So.. when selecting gear for a death knight tank, one should be looking for pretty much the same stats as would be good for a warrior tank, yes? And would the same stat weights work?

I don't think that stacking expertise as much as warriors do it is an effective way for a death knight for one, since for frost and unholy builds most of the threat is going to be magic damage unaffected by it. Another thing I can think off is the way rage generation works and is diminished by stacking avoidance, having your dodges and parries prevent rage increases from incoming damage(?) when as a death knight you are free and meant to avoid as much as you can increasing both your survivability by obvious means and threat generation due to scent of blood and rune strike procs.

That's inaccurate. Most damage from Frost and Unholy still uses the melee hit table.

Runestrike, DnD, both diseases, IT, frost strike, deathocoil, howling blast, UB aren't. Don't know about you but for me RS is top damaging ability when i tank.

Every once in a while things like these come up..
Runestrike replaces next white hit, and it can miss just as any attack, it's obviously using melee hit.
Frost strike also uses melee hit, since it's a weapon strike and not a spell. It doesn't matter that it deals frost damage instead of physical (same applies for Scourge Strike).

Maybe I wrote too soon, but I didn't think these last posts were just about expertise but about threat stats, and hit is on the melee hit table too. Both hit and expertise are valuable threat stats.
Of course that RS and FS can't be dodged or parried. However, dk tanks of all specs still have a great use for expertise in other strikes.

I'd say your thinking is being limited by the notion of a firm rotation which is a horrible thing for a Death Knight to be using. As a Death Knight Tank, the term "rotation" should only imply the period in which we use all six of our runes. If you have a firm rotation (meaning casting order) that you stick to every time instead of prioritizing your abilities and adjusting which spell you are casting based upon this and effective misses, you will get the exact result you're getting.

Pestilence doesn't have to happen at the same point in every rotation, nor do you need to use your runes in the same order every rotation. I don't expect anyone who's been playing the class using a stiff rotation based on theory crafting to be able to run off to the PTR and get the results I proposed you will get. Also, where on the PTR did you test this?

In regards to the individual with the "rough math," there is extra threat being generated by additional obliterates *and* additional FREE howling blasts (which wouldn't have been used at all if not for the rime procs). Not all of the additional threat comes from Howling Blast. Also, if 12% of your threat comes from Howling Blast and you cast Howling Blast 30% more, that does come out to 4%. Unfortunately, rough math isn't theory crafting and definitely isn't live testing.

Edit: I don't mean any offense to anyone, it's just that sometimes it seems like we're missing the fundamentals of the class and some pretty basic facts as we continue to TC and "test" things.

Pestilence does not need to be cast at the same time each rotation, but doing so serves two purposes. First, it ensures that Pestilence is cast before diseases drop (assuming 2/2 Epidemic). Second, it ensures rune efficiency; refreshing sooner both reduces the duration gained per refresh and by extension the damage per rune.

To break from a set time of refresh requires appropriate circumstances or some other quantifiable gain.

More or less. And Axeurface suggesting his rotation worked with 1/2 Epidemic means he'd have to be holding a blood rune open to refresh every time. Saving those runes and using them only once per rotation rather than twice means that not only are you never using two death runes on an Obliterate, but you're only getting half efficiency out of your blood runes. It's going to be a net DPS/TPS loss whichever way you do it.

Always keeping a blood rune is not a good idea also because you will never have Blade Barrier buff.

Hey... I've read alot here, and decided to have two specs at hand; a blood tanking build and an unholy tanking build as well... The reason is that it is my own experience that unholy can be very nice for aoe threat as we all know, but is weak on single-target threat. And vice versa with blood... Both of my specs provice good utility for a raid.

57/5/9 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

5/13/53 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Comments on my decisions to the blood spec:
First of all, I can't decide if I want DRW+Blood Gorged, just Blood Gorged, or neither of them - to put points into talents such as "3/3 Imp. Icy Touch" (which is also great to reduce incoming dmg)+ "3/3 Ravenous Dead" (3% str = parry/dodge = yay).
Secondly, I picked Subversion because of DRW, which (with glyph too) can last pretty long, plus the fact that Death Strike will be solid part of my attacks/threat. Having alot RP with the Glyph of Death Strike makes DS itself hit for more.
I don't think having Rune Tap (thus spending 4 points) is ideal - not for me at least - I'd like to spent those points elsewhere). I also feel I lack "Black Ice", but again... Can't have it all.

Comments on my decisions to the unholy spec:
This spec lacks Dark Conviction IMO... But I think "Black Ice" buffs alot (Blood Boil, Scourge Strike, Unholy Blight, DnD, Blood Plague, Plague Strike... etc, etc.)... I took Rage of Rivendare, because Exp is generally very good for tanks. I might remove it/consider it as my gear gets better, though. But the +10% dmg isn't bad, right? If I would remove anything from the unholy tree it would be the Magic Suppresion+Anti-Magic Zone (but that isnt possible, unless I spent points somwhere else in the tree). Dirge can be questioned... I just like having plenty of RP for RP-Dumping (especially Rune Strike, which I really love).

Glyphs...
Both specs I picked Rune Strike, because it procs all the time when you tank, and it is a nice off-GCD threat builder. I haven't picked Icebound Fortitude, because with about 540 def, it will reduce dmg taken by 35% anyway. DnD for unholy of course together with Scourge Strike (but I really doubt between SS glyph and Bone Shield glyph)... For blood I dont see any better than Vampiric Blood + Death Strike (which is essential).

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

I've picked up pretty much the same spec, except I took
3/3 Morbidity (you have 2/3, point from DRW)
3/3 Scent of Blood, incredible source of RP (points from MoB and IBP). I think this is pretty must have for all tanking specs, at least if you're having threat problems.

I think maxed out Subversion and Morbidity are great for extra TPS, and you only lose some pretty worthless self healing stuff.

I'm very happy with my build and had some great results with it. Done so far the following 10man hard modes as tank without a problem; Iron Council, Thorim, Freya and Vezax. Threat and survivability are great, healers are saying I take much less damage than our MT warrior (we both have pretty much full t8.5 gear). And no aggro problems with elemental shamans and mages pulling out 9k dps on Vezax while interrupting him (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis).

Hey all, lurker for a long time, first post though.

Question, as a blood tank w/ all the relevant damage to both heart strike and death strike, with a sigil of awareness equipped, which is a better use of 2 death runes, 2 heart strikes, or one death strike? In terms of pure threat output. (I'm ulduar 25 geared and just moved over to a blood tanking guild and alot of DPS in my guild are putting out 6k+ TPS so I need to be the best I can be.

Heart Strike, Death Strike when you don't need to do max TPS

Just one question about blood tanking:

Having 3 talent points to use, should I put them on Improved Icy Touch or in Sudden Doom? Which produces more threat?

You should put them into IIT (unless IIT will always be overwritten). However, IIT doesn't produce any threat, so SD will produce more threat. That is an accurate answer to what is probably the wrong question.

The talent tooltip says: "Your Icy Touch does an additional 15% damage..."
So the talent does create additional threat even if it's not anywhere near Sudden Doom.

This is because Inspiration put us near the armor cap in ilvl 213 gear. 25% armor is huge. Being at 70+% physical mitigation all the time is amazing.

Specs -- lots of talk still. I still don't understand why the lack of interest in the build Ovp first discussed. As discussed, he just wrote off EJ for being closed-minded. Ironic, as this is suppose to be a place to flesh out new ideas.

If you could make your tank have 7.5% expertise, hit to ~8% with 2 handed weapons (which makes taunts nearly guaranteed as week), extra stamina and give you extra cooldowns for dealing with special attacks from bosses wouldn't you consider it? We all know avoidance is king... we have the physical mitgation with Inspirations -- sorry druids, blame the developers -- and we push 50-60% avoidance in top ilvl 213 gear (20+% over top druids). And we have better cooldowns and mitigation buttons on demand.

VOTW/Unholy gives up frost's armor which works out to 2% physical mitigation for extra expertise, passive magic avoidance and extra stamina. As you know, there are no longer crushing blows. Rather every boss has a special ability which is, except for General Vezax far as I know, usually magical damage. The key thing is then not to build for physical mitigation, but to gear for magic mitigation.

In the end, it's the feel of a healer that tells you if you're easy to keep up or not, if you compare better or worse against another tank. Mine say I'm the easiest versus warriors, paladins, druids and blood / frost dks.

The numbers as listed pre-frost presence:

* Health 31256
* Strength: 1050
* Agility: 219
* Stamina: 2304
* Intellect: 35
* Spirit: 59
* Armor: 14195

* Armor: 14195
* Defense: 539
* Dodge: 26.18%
* Parry: 20.05%
* Block: 0%
* Resilience: 15

* Damage: 1261 - 1550
* Speed: 3.40
* Power 2714
* Hit Rating: 250 (7.62%) -- ~10% spell
* Crit Chance: 14.69%
* Expertise: 29 (7.25%)

Sigil -- Unfaltering Knight for consistant extra avoidance.

Using the total avoidance macro I'm at 60% total avoidance with horn of winter. I'm not sure if the macro takes into account my Night Elf racial. I think even higher with Sigil proc'ing -- I should check one day I'm not concentrating on tanking!

The World of Warcraft Armory

Spare poinst - 2 points in desecretion -- whichever you like.. IMO, I'll put them into On a Pale Horse to deal with the trash stuns in Ulduar.

Glyphs: Flexibility here -- choose your own.

Runestrike -- Threat
DnD -- Threat
Bone Shield -- Unholy Requirement***

Raise Dead, Horn of Winter, Pestilence -- usual minors.

Blood Benefits
1. VOTW : expertise and stamina -- maximize your gems and enchants for stamina. Extra expertise reduces parry gibbing plus increases threat.
2. Spell deflection : magic deflection 15% chance to take 45% less magic damage all the time. Then you calculate your frost presence, reduce spell damage helm meta gem, and Unholy 6% less magic bonus.
3. Blade barrier : reduction damage (standard)

Unholy
1. With high avoidance bone shield last longer.. And if you time it you can have it up during a special attack.
2. Night of the dead - not a huge thing considering that most bosses in Ulduar take 20+ minutes to get to, but this talent ensures that almost every attempt on a boss you can use your Army -- which, IMO, is a 10sec 50% less damage shield wall sort of button.
3. Unholy blight is just for threat / aoe threat
4. Magic Supression: 6% less magic damage all the time, increased strength of magic shield
5. Anti-Magic Zone: another cooldown for magic
6. Ebon plaguebringer : 13% extra magic dmg (which you do as well as all casters)
7. Wandering plague : 1 point allowed for extra aoe dmg and threat.

Total magic resistance / mitigation abilities:

1. spell deflection
2. improved magic suppresion
3. anti-magic zone
4. army of the dead
5. bone shield

When tanking Emalon 10, you can solo tank it by rotation Magic shield, Anti-Magic Zone, Bone Shield, and IBF on the aoe blast. Same with 10/25 Brundir. On Mimiron, you go Magic Shield for the first plasma, AMZ second plasma +/- IBF, and AMZ 3rd plasma - time your boneshield for best mitigation - I usually put it up and rotation it between my trinkets (Repelling Charge + Figurine Monarch).

The key issue with this build appears to be threat as I have to keep a DnD down with diseases up consistently.

I'm pushing stamina for Ulduar while trying to maintain 60% total avoidance.

Give it a try and make sure all your abilites are hot-key'd.

Good luck everyone.

(PS: I feel a bit vindicative having stumbled across my pvp "idol". The World of Warcraft Armory)

Just a small comment jacclark, you don't have two great threat talents - Scent of Blood and Dirge. That would give one extra Rune Strike every rotation.
The 3 points in ghoul talents don't give any threat or mitigation, and his dps is only usable when soloing old raids.
No toughness? That talent is not optional.

Couple threat questions, fellow Bloodies.

As of now, I run 56/5/10 (The World of Warcraft Armory) and my rotation is:
IT PS DS HS HS
DS DS HS Pest

and I was wondering if that was ideal.

Are Death Rune Mastery specs putting out more TPS? I've been noticing Hunters usually right up on my ass on TPS lately, and pretty much everyone else on cheese fights like Hodir / General (casters). If DRM is the key to higher threat, what's the rotation for it?

AoD really provide a very good mitigation (50-60% depending stuff&co), but the thing is that during the channeling of the spell, you won't dodge/parry anymore and eat every boss attacks. Were AoD could really help is with boss spells requiring long channeling (like mimiron's plasma blast) because the boss won't hit you with physical attacks while you're channeling AoD and taking 50% less damage. On the other hand, you won't make more aggro while you're channeling, and even with 10' cooldown you're not sure to get it whenever you want it if your raid is quickly chaining the tries.

In my opinion, it's really expensive to put 2 talents point juste for one very specific mitigation-talent that make you loose aggro and could be remplaced by every paladin/priest around here.