DK Tanking Discussion - Page 123

Pyros · 01/15/09, 9:59 PM

It doesn't always lag other people though, I can't really pinpoint what causes this, might be another issue. Also morbidity bug doesn't affect all DK, so I guess it's natural he doesn't believe it. I mean, our main DPS DK, when he specs for whelps tanking get morbidity, because he's not affected by it. It makes things much much easier when you can chain drop DnD. With that said, it's pretty easy to handle it without, spec unholy blight or howling blast and you'll be fine. Just abuse the fact you have 2 taunts(take -10s on death grip too), and only use DnD for whelps.

Other than that well I guess you can direct him to this thread, and my posts. And if he wants some proof it's not my computer, I have some fraps of sarth 3D at 30FPS with all details/graphics to max, on 1680x1050 windowed with recount and combat log running. If I spec in morbidity though, I can't handle the whelp spawn+some blazes even with all graphics to minimum and most addons turned off, so well.

Blightmuffin · 01/15/09, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

It doesn't always lag other people though, I can't really pinpoint what causes this, might be another issue. Also morbidity bug doesn't affect all DK, so I guess it's natural he doesn't believe it. I mean, our main DPS DK, when he specs for whelps tanking get morbidity, because he's not affected by it. It makes things much much easier when you can chain drop DnD. With that said, it's pretty easy to handle it without, spec unholy blight or howling blast and you'll be fine. Just abuse the fact you have 2 taunts(take -10s on death grip too), and only use DnD for whelps.

Other than that well I guess you can direct him to this thread, and my posts. And if he wants some proof it's not my computer, I have some fraps of sarth 3D at 30FPS with all details/graphics to max, on 1680x1050 windowed with recount and combat log running. If I spec in morbidity though, I can't handle the whelp spawn+some blazes even with all graphics to minimum and most addons turned off, so well.

I had a guildie that kept disconnecting during Grobbulus encounters. DnD is kind of similar to all the poison rings he creates. During the holidays I was visiting family and playing on a substandard PC and DnD wreaked havoc with my frame rate, so I dropped details down and couldn't really see where things were, such as Grob rings. Catch-22...but I wasn't disconnecting.

I asked him some questions about his computer and the moment he mentioned he had an SLI setup, I told him to disable it. It fixed the problem. When I bought my uber machine two years ago with 2x 8800GTXs, SLI mode yielded serious stability issues despite all the attempts I made to resolve them. I really ultimately found out that 1 card performed superbly in most games. Crysis made me actually take the card out completely... and I haven't missed it. So go ahead, if you have SLI, try disabling it and I bet this will resolve your issues. WoW is not a graphically intense game.

Pyros · 01/16/09, 12:25 AM

If I had SLI, or any out of the norm config, I'd turn it off. It's obviously not related. It's even less related as I have no issue with grobbulus rings, or thaddius charges, or anything. I don't disconnect. I don't crash. My FPS drops when I cast DnD on more than 8-10targets, with morbidity. That's it, I have zero other issues with wow, in any other situation. That's pretty much the perfect example of why devs don't get the issue, if people make a post about morbidity, random other people come and mix in different problems with it. Yes DK spells are unoptimized for older systems, yes currently some people experience disconnects during raiding and such, but the morbidity issue is a very specific issue that only affect some DKs and only affect them when they cast DnD with morbidity. They might have other issues too, but those are unrelated, and other people have other issues with DK spells too, which are also unrelated. It shouldn't be that hard to understand really.

It's also pretty much a pointless subject, since there's nothing to do about it but spec out of it, so let's just leave it at that, it's enough of a derail and while it somewhat relies to tanking, there's nothing more to say about it, at least in my opinion. I've posted my tests, I've explained the issues I have in details, some people have confirmed it.

♦ forostie · 01/16/09, 12:38 AM

The graphic often isn't the issue, it's the combat logging. If you use a non standard combat log or any form of in game combat log parser you can experience issues with the spell - it's not simply damage, its an aura apply, aura remove, spell damage event and spell damage tick. 3rd party parsers may crunch the output differently.

Zurai · 01/16/09, 2:25 AM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

Rune Tap cannot crit.

Oh, yes, it can. I assure you, I do not have 40k health, and I've gotten 8k rune tap heals before. And I've never, ever been specced past Improved Rune Tap in Blood, so it's not Vampiric Blood.

EDIT: and they were while soloing old-world content, so no fancy buffs, either.

Gurtogg · 01/16/09, 5:25 AM

Originally Posted by forostie

The graphic often isn't the issue, it's the combat logging. If you use a non standard combat log or any form of in game combat log parser you can experience issues with the spell - it's not simply damage, its an aura apply, aura remove, spell damage event and spell damage tick. 3rd party parsers may crunch the output differently.

It's not a combatlog issue. It's been stated quite a few times that the problem only occurs when points are spent in Morbidity, note there is no change to the Death and Decay spell, only a reduced cooldown time.
I run OpenRDX's Omniscience as my only combat log which uses an aura cache because the developer was finding UnitBuff() and UnitDebuff() were being called upon in huge amounts.
To give an idea of how the cache improved Omniscience's performance;
Results without cache - 200K UnitBuff() and UnitDebuff() calls - 2 min AV
With Cache - 30000 hits - 10 min AV

I still get complete lockdown if using Death and Decay on 10 or more mobs with Morbidity talented.

Mulgero · 01/16/09, 6:08 AM

I don't have any issues with DnD and/or with Morbidity. At least not with initial DnD, after adding PS/IT+pest I get typical small freeze second or so but this happens only in group/raid with other aoe effects going on same time. More likely it's tied to some hw&driver combo... since if this would be bigger issue blizz class forums would be full of whine about the issue.

Kaejin · 01/16/09, 6:46 AM

I have a difficult time dealing with whelps and blazes on Sarth. Well, mostly blazes. Whelps aren't bad as long as I hold off on D&D until they're about to hatch and I place it where they spawn. That's more than enough to get them to come to me first instead of getting healing aggro, and then moving over the D&D when the Tsunami passes and going on with IT, PS, Pest, HB is enough to keep them on me until they can be AoEd down when Tenebron is dead.

The problem I have is the way blazes always spawn spread out and then go pretty much wherever they get aggro first. I usually spend most of my time after establishing aggro on whelp groups running around and using Death Grip, Dark Command, IT, and HB on any rogue adds and cursing the cooldowns they have. Dark Command is easily the most reliable because of the short cooldown and the fact that it always taunts the target. The rest aren't always so helpful, though. DG has too long of a cooldown (I'm considering running a different tanking spec on our OS EoE nights so I can grab Unholy Command and have an easier time with Sparks too, though the CD will still be too long), IT doesn't always do enough damage to grab aggro, and HB often has the same problem as IT and can't be used as often. The AoE capability of HB is only useful if two blazes are near each other which isn't always the case.

I've talked with the raid leader about it and next week we're hoping to try to enforce some better positioning (there are lots of problems with ranged DPS and healers being too spread out) so that I can utilize D&D better and so that less people die from stupid things like waves and fissures.

Is there anything else I can do to grab aggro on blazes so I can spend less time running around and getting hit from behind? Better raid positioning will help, but I can't help but think there's more I can do about it on a personal level.

Originally Posted by Mulgero

I don't have any issues with DnD and/or with Morbidity. At least not with initial DnD, after adding PS/IT+pest I get typical small freeze second or so but this happens only in group/raid with other aoe effects going on same time. More likely it's tied to some hw&driver combo... since if this would be bigger issue blizz class forums would be full of whine about the issue.

How many mobs do you typically use D&D on? I didn't think I had the Morbidity problem until I started to tank adds on 2 drake Sarth. Once a sufficient amount get into D&D when you have Morbidity, shit will hit the fan. Not that you'll be able to see it. Try going to a low level instance and make some large pulls. I went to Deathmines and pull the entire room of Goblin smelters and the hallway of Defias before them to test, and then went on making smaller and smaller pulls. My limit was somewhere around 12+ mobs. It's unlikely you would D&D that many outside of Faerlina trash and whelps in OS.

Tel · 01/16/09, 8:29 AM

One group of whelps and up to 3 blazes is fine. Add a single additional blaze to that and I completely lock up with Morbidity specced. Really annoying, as it means a respec for every Sarth3D try.

One pointer I would suggest to the person having issues picking up adds is to try unholy rather than frost. UB along with wandering plague really helps keep those mobs attached to you. If you're having problems holding the whelps then make sure you have diseases up on a blaze ready to pestilence as they spawn too. It makes a world of difference. I personally use a spec with AMZ (I drop it on our Sarth tank), Lichborne, and Bone Shield and 51 in unholy for UB along with a point in Garg (none in MoG) so i can drop my two pets on the first Drake and leave them to nuke+die for that bit of extra dps.

Dont forget you have Death Coil as an ability to pick up Blazes too. When there are only one or two up i'll use Plague Strike and Blood strike to use up those runes, saving my death runes, rp and frost runes for spamming icy touch and death coil to pick up adds when I have loads of mobs on me already. Keeping up diseases on all mobs with pest for wandering plague is important too, as that combined with UB will stick them to you like glue, especially if you can spare the CD to re-pest and bloodboil from time to time.

Suno · 01/16/09, 9:59 AM

Well I must say that either I L'd2P or the presence bug fix has helped my threat a lot. I was working on 10-man 5min Maly achievement last night, all it took was an Empower Rune weapon at the start and boom, I'm at 120k threat. I can then kite around as necessary and only pay a small amount of attention to my rotation to remain well ahead (it also helps to have Maly let you hit her with strikes while in the washing machine). Even with 4 spark stacks and my op DPS wrecking him in the air, they never caught up until about 5% before phase 2. Didn't quite get the achievement though, having a(nother) DK is pretty much essential. Give it another go this weekend.

I must admit I half-suspected Blizz was just saying they fixed the "bug" as a placebo effect on DK/warrior, but the increased reliability on threat for one of the most intense aggro fights was impossible to ignore. I was still, however, only at ~5k TPS (8k after ERW). I imagine omen's TPS meter was fooled by the bug as well.

Griefknight · 01/16/09, 10:53 AM

I'm curious as to why people believe the problem with morbidity is the game or coding. The only problems I have are based while I'm in a 10/25man raid with multiple players unloading all the AE they can. I can pull 12 enemies and drop 3/3 morbidity DnD and not have any problems with an extra DnD and a blizzard while in a 5man. I think the problem is being in a 10/25man raid, using parrot (combat text), and having multiple players using there AE attacks. That would seem like there is problem with my computer and not the coding of a spell or the game itself. I may be one of the few people who don't "experience" this "problem" but who knows.

I did notice my threat was much better last night then it was three nights ago. I was at 4k-5k TPS depending on what I was doing at the time. That was in a few 5man runs with my guild members.

Sonrisa · 01/16/09, 11:08 AM

I'll admit I haven't really tried without morbidty, because its mostly ok for me to use even with 10-15 mobs, I just get lower FPS but nothing unplayable, so I spec into it anyway. However, with really big amounts of mobs, like for example the mana wyrms in MT, Gluth zombies, Faerlina/Heigan/Loatheb trash it does get really bad and I have also DCed a couple times because of it. When it happens my computer pretty much just freezes until everything is dead or I DC.

I also did notice higher threat myself, and even higher than usual while going with our prot paladin. Just in case I changed back and forth to frost presence a lot before pulls. Guess I'm just paranoid now.

Peino · 01/16/09, 11:22 AM

Its very easy to test the Morbidity bug. Have anyone that doesn't believe you, go with you to Onyxia. Kill Ony (or don't if you already had), have the DK pull 30-50 whelps (I just jumped off the bridge and pulled the whole left side, if facing where Ony spawns). Drop DnD, anyone in the instance will DC.

I was actually going for the Jenkins achievement when I found this.

piken · 01/16/09, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Griefknight

I'm curious as to why people believe the problem with morbidity is the game or coding. The only problems I have are based while I'm in a 10/25man raid with multiple players unloading all the AE they can. I can pull 12 enemies and drop 3/3 morbidity DnD and not have any problems with an extra DnD and a blizzard while in a 5man. I think the problem is being in a 10/25man raid, using parrot (combat text), and having multiple players using there AE attacks. That would seem like there is problem with my computer and not the coding of a spell or the game itself. I may be one of the few people who don't "experience" this "problem" but who knows.

I did notice my threat was much better last night then it was three nights ago. I was at 4k-5k TPS depending on what I was doing at the time. That was in a few 5man runs with my guild members.

I have tested the issue on 4 different computers. It appears that when 3/3 morb is taken an old long standing problem from beta occurs related to the vertex shader programming in the game. Let me explain a bit.

During beta if you went into any northrend zone while there was fog in it, and I mean anywhere in the zone, the server call to the client to rendor the vertex shader for the fog would cause every nvidia user to dc with in 5 sec after lagging really bad. This problem for awhile was also seen with DnD and desicration. After a hotfix and client patch the issue went away with all but DnD if you have morbidity.

I have made a few posts on the forums about it with responses from the CM's that the devs are looking into it because it appears that with morb DnD is using an old graphics call to render is pixel and vertex shaders.

Now about my tests I have run. They have been done in low lvl 5 mans and a few old school 40 mans. My main gaming box has an Nvidia 8800. (have sli but only use 1 card for wow because of better fps, currently due to an nvidia bug that they are working on with blizz you loose 20-40 fps with sli 8800's). On this system with any more then 11 mobs and any points in morb, I lag out and dc.

Using my char with the same spec I used my wifes computer in the same instance with a pull of 12 mobs. She has a x900xt from ATI and it didn't lag or dc at all. I then tested it out on an older pc of mine with a x800 (agp) and had no disco.

The 4th system I tested on was using an old ati 9700pro. This has the same joint vertex shader engine from opengl that nvidia uses (before ati started using divix based vertex shaders) and low and behold I lagged out and dc'ed.

I ran all the tests on the 4 systems again with no morb and had not one lag/dc problem while using DnD. I passed this info off to customer service directly via email after spending about an hour on the phone with them the other day because morb is huge for aoe threat, but considering my main gaming system lag's and dc's because of the issue there is a problem.

Specs on my main box before you say lol upgrade your system.

Q6700
8Gb Corsair XMS dominator2
XFX 8800gts 784mb x2 in sli (currently disabled till nvid/bliz issue fixed)
300gb raptor2 x 2 in raid 0 with Maxtor 750gb 16 mb cache x2 in raid 1 for storage.
1000w Pc Power and Cooling power supply
Asus PGS deluxe MB.

So yeah, the system is no slacker at all. It is all pure gaming.

Edit:
Forgot to mention, the issue with Morb was fun in a raid of friends doing AQ40 the other day. We had 20 people (most alt that never did it at 60 and wanted the achieve also) in the raid and I pulled all of fanks tunnel up to him at once. Dropped a DnD with about 60+ bugs on me and insta lagged/dc'ed 16 of the 20 that all had nvidia cards leaving my wife on her lvl 71 dk and 3 74's there alone. It was a good laugh after she stopped screaming and cursing at me.

Zurai · 01/16/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Griefknight

I'm curious as to why people believe the problem with morbidity is the game or coding. The only problems I have are based while I'm in a 10/25man raid with multiple players unloading all the AE they can. I can pull 12 enemies and drop 3/3 morbidity DnD and not have any problems with an extra DnD and a blizzard while in a 5man. I think the problem is being in a 10/25man raid, using parrot (combat text), and having multiple players using there AE attacks. That would seem like there is problem with my computer and not the coding of a spell or the game itself. I may be one of the few people who don't "experience" this "problem" but who knows.

Absolutely not. I do not run any combat log/chat mods, and it happens to me while soloing Onyxia if I let the whelps build up too far. I actually switched to frost for Onyxia so I could AOE the whelps effectively. It also happens in my solo Stratholme runs, which isn't any kind of raid at all.