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Old 01/29/09, 5:34 AM   #2401
Indicate
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Shadowmoon
The way i see it is, if DW tanks are viable, then 2 handed tanks with BCB isn't an issue.

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Old 01/29/09, 6:47 AM   #2402
Volrath50
Piston Honda
 
Volrath50's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moon Guard
Originally Posted by Désespoir View Post
Not directly linked to your question, but BCB is a terrible talent for a DK Tank
I understand the "risk", but in actual gameplay with current content, my own death hasn't even been close to being an issue. My healers don't go OOM, I don't die, heck, except for Patch, my health doesn't even dip much. I understand the reflexive "parry is bad", but, like all things, it's only bad if it's an actual threat.

As it is, it's something like 4% or so more damage. Eh, I like it.

"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."

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Old 01/29/09, 9:34 AM   #2403
MissnL1nK
Piston Honda
 
Pandaren Shaman
 
Kel'Thuzad
My rotations is relatively simple and much like the one posted here on EJ, if not the exact rotation. The only thing different is that I do not use DnD on single targets at all. I find that breaking my rotation for an DnD is not worth it, imo.

IT-PS-BS-BS-SS_Runic Dump
SS-SS-SS-Runic Dump

The weapon I choose is because of the top end on it, and the fact that I haven't gotten ID yet.

My better smells like french toast.

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Old 01/29/09, 10:21 AM   #2404
Griefknight
Banned
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Detheroc
I thought we dubbed BCB a bad talent for tanks near the beginning of this thread, since the talent hasn't changed I don't see why that would change.

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Old 01/29/09, 10:56 AM   #2405
Okuno
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Hyjal
This is more for the end game DK's fully geared but :

At what point should I switch from getting avoidance to threat generation, or am I pretty much topped off?

Right now I sit around 60-70% not getting hit by a boss. (Last night Patchwerk 75% of hatefulls never landed with 74% mitigation)
My threat generation is around 5k tps. (Give or take but average 25man tps in Maly/Naxx/Sarth)

Is that all I should expect? Or is there more for me to improve on?

Personally I have a feeling the only way I can alter the numbers would be switching my spec to Unholy or Blood. From reading these forums I get the feeling that with my gear level being as high as it is I could go probably drop some of the frost talents in favor of threat generating ones.

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Old 01/29/09, 10:56 AM   #2406
Minister
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Kel'Thuzad
I've been searching this thread but can't find it: has anyone theorycrafted pawn/ep/equivalency point values for DK tanking?

"I'm sorry, honey, but since I stopped playing WoW it appears that there has been some sort of expansion to the game. Unfortunately, it appears to be quite good." -- Me to my Wife

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Old 01/29/09, 11:11 AM   #2407
Griefknight
Banned
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Detheroc
Originally Posted by Okuno View Post
This is more for the end game DK's fully geared but :

At what point should I switch from getting avoidance to threat generation, or am I pretty much topped off?

Right now I sit around 60-70% not getting hit by a boss. (Last night Patchwerk 75% of hatefulls never landed with 74% mitigation)
My threat generation is around 5k tps. (Give or take but average 25man tps in Maly/Naxx/Sarth)

Is that all I should expect? Or is there more for me to improve on?

Personally I have a feeling the only way I can alter the numbers would be switching my spec to Unholy or Blood. From reading these forums I get the feeling that with my gear level being as high as it is I could go probably drop some of the frost talents in favor of threat generating ones.
You generally switch from avoidance to threat generation when your DPS pull off you or get close. I generate as much if not more TPS as you in a 10man, which isn't good. I would say get rid of your parry/defense gem, all your defense gems, and repelling charge. I would then gem for either 8hit/12stam or 8exp/12stam, preferably 8exp/12stam until the soft-cap of 26. I also don't see why you have ice walker, 16agi to cloak, 20hit to gloves, and no arcanum. I'd get the essence of gossamer from H AN to replace the charge.

EDIT- If your DPS isn't even close to pulling off you then just put in 8dodge/12stam gems or 24stam gems for the most EH and/or avoidance.

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Old 01/29/09, 11:14 AM   #2408
basto
Von Kaiser
 
basto's Avatar
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by gorsameth View Post
The logic behind it is that BCB can be parried so it increases the chance to get a bad parry string. The relevence of this and the actual risk is something opinions vary on.

Tho in my opinion increasing the chance for little gain (note i'm not 100% sure of the tps benefit of BCB but i doubt its major) is a bad move.
That is a pretty weak argument against the talent. By that logic you should be looking for only 3.8 speed weapons because a 3.4 speed weapon will hit more often and cause a greater chance for a parry.

BCB adds additional TPS which is needed in an unholy build.

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Old 01/29/09, 11:15 AM   #2409
Suno
Never challenge the throne.
 
Suno's Avatar
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
You can get away with BCB if you like, but if you're depending on it for threat then parryhasting is the least of your concerns. Lots of tanks outgear the possible consequences of grabbing BcB and probably would not notice any negative effects.

I plan on being on the competitive edge for Ulduar, and I don't consider BcB a necessary risk in terms of min/maxing for new content.

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Old 01/29/09, 11:29 AM   #2410
Okuno
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Hyjal
First I should have stated threat this way - I have never had a DPS pull anywhere near my threat (DW Warriors / Mages / Locks).

The gloves I heard mixed reviews on getting the %2 threat versus 20hit, your saying drop that and get the threat enchant?

16 Agil to cloak until I decide to pony up the gold for the titanweave.

Is the Gossamer going to give me any threat? I have it but the extra health but loss of cooldown and dodge seems a high price. When I ran the numbers I saw an increase in hits that far out-weighted the extra health, especially when getting hit by the 25-Man level bosses. 10-man / Dungeons makes sense though.

I will start looking at some re-gems.

Thank you for your input.

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Old 01/29/09, 11:44 AM   #2411
Griefknight
Banned
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Detheroc
Originally Posted by Okuno View Post
First I should have stated threat this way - I have never had a DPS pull anywhere near my threat (DW Warriors / Mages / Locks).

The gloves I heard mixed reviews on getting the %2 threat versus 20hit, your saying drop that and get the threat enchant?

16 Agil to cloak until I decide to pony up the gold for the titanweave.

Is the Gossamer going to give me any threat? I have it but the extra health but loss of cooldown and dodge seems a high price. When I ran the numbers I saw an increase in hits that far out-weighted the extra health, especially when getting hit by the 25-Man level bosses. 10-man / Dungeons makes sense though.

I will start looking at some re-gems.

Thank you for your input.
Yes, I'm saying that the 2% threat/10 parry to gloves is better.

I would personally use the Gossamer over the Charge just because I find that there isn't any reason to have more then 540 defense. I also don't find 3k HP for 15 seconds on a 3 minute CD to out-weight ~1.1k constant HP. I don't think that any of this current content besides Sarth 3D require any real min/maxing in the survivability section of tanking if you just gear yourself properly before jumping into the content so if you prefer the Charge then I'd use it but I still recommend using your sockets for threat or EH instead of defense.

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Old 01/29/09, 12:09 PM   #2412
Okuno
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Yeah I have a whole assortment of gear from the Heroic 5-Dungeons.

I like the cool down only because I use a macro for Pot / Cooldown / HerbSkill , its my ultimate I am gonna die button. It buys me that .5 second I need sometimes, often I find healers get used to me not getting hit. I wish they would make an epic version of that trinket. I would be all over it if they did.

I will have the badge bracers soon as Military / Mob drops have not provided me with any upgrades for my bracers those will get enchanted as soon as I get em.

I will be enchanting my gloves with the threat enchant today.

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Old 01/29/09, 1:02 PM   #2413
Dasex
Glass Joe
 
Troll Death Knight
 
Dunemaul
Hooked

I have spent the last week absorbing all this WONDERFUL information! Thank you all who did the number crunching! That being said, I shall continue to the point. . I have rolled frost since before the patch, and enjoy it alot. My rotation is usually: Single target, IT-PS-BS-BS-OB Multi, (usually drop DnD and DG them to it, so runes are otw to refreshing) IT-Pest-HB-PS-Pest for snap AoE (if theres an arcane mage or two I toss deathchill on it). The cd removal on pestilence allows (in multi mob situations) for no more need to cast IT or PS, thusly I OB on the dps target and HB whenever possible. I also have RS macroed to all my attacks (accept DnD and FS). This is a bad choice in the eyes of some, citing that leaves little RP for things like IBF and AMS. With my spec I don't have RP issues. Since I PUG all my raids, I never know if there is going to be a shaman to drop windfury or not, so I took the Icy Talons batch. I have played without it and can see the difference in damage I take because of the attack speed debuff. My concern and reason for this post is, with all these benefits of frost, why would someone take unholy or blood? I have no threat issues either single target or multiple. I realize that this is a game, you should have fun, and DK's were designed to tank in any tree, but it just seems like an easy choice. Once again, thank you all for taking the time that I don't have to theorycraft.

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Old 01/29/09, 1:28 PM   #2414
EvilNuff
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Detheroc
Originally Posted by Griefknight View Post
...I find that there isn't any reason to have more then 540 defense...
To Quote the FAQ thread about using the SG rune:
BOTH SG AND SWORDSHATTERING ARE NOT EFFECTED BY DIMINISHING RETURNS.
...
If you want to go in that direction, remember you have to keep your defense at 565 to be as close in avoidance as 540 with swordshattering.
This is what the [Okuno, the person Griefknight is replying to] appears to have done. Are you disagreeing with the FAQ's advise?

Edit: I didn't mean the original poster in the thread, sorry for the confusion. I meant the original person Griefknight was replying to. I edited for clarity.

Last edited by EvilNuff : 01/29/09 at 4:19 PM.

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Old 01/29/09, 1:37 PM   #2415
Okuno
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Hyjal
Personally I have tried over 15 specs starting with Unholy (Pre-Patch 3.0.8). All of them are effective at tanking. Key word is effective - by that I mean viable. Most raids have 2-3 tanks so filling that role can be different on different fights.

Unholy seems the best for buffing raids with valuable (Increased movement is worth its weight in gold imo) buffs. It has an increased effect on multiple mobs and one AoE pulls its can put out incredible damage.
Unholy seems to favor casters with its buffs (+13% Magic damage)
Second highest health buffs

Blood seems the best for single target and has highest health of the 3 specs. Also provides valuable buffs to melee that stack with other similar buffs. Highest expertise through talents. Very good survivability.

All the trees have their high points and low points. Its a matter of play style and personal opinion. Any good player can make any spec work(To that end I mean barring gear/computer/lag/broken arms).

Please this post is a general statement if I left anything out its not to favor any one tank spec over another.

Hope that helped with perspective.

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