DK Tanking Discussion - Page 168

huntcaudata · 02/05/09, 3:11 PM

Why wouldn't you use Faerlina, Maexxna, Grob, Saph? Sure, on Maexxna you aren't generating threat for 20 seconds of the fight, but that should be accounted for in WWS, on Saph for a little longer. On Grob all you do is tank and backpedal.

Raedix · 02/05/09, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by Megaera

You could use it for benchmarking I suppose, but it would change the way you play the fight. Once all the DPS is spore-buffed my attention turns a bit and I start focusing on making things easier on the healers. Making sure I reapply diseases just before Necrotic drops so I can Death Strike through the gap, chaining cooldowns as cleanly as I can, etc.

It's not a particularly hard fight, so if you wanted to LOLTHREATLOL your way through it to get a stable benchmark that's certainly an option, but it's not as if we can look at someone's Loatheb numbers on any given clear and get menaingful information unless that was their intent.

But seriously, Patch isn't much better. I know I need to just IT/RS/autoattack for half the fight to prevent myself from ripping threat off our warrior MTing him. Plus, you don't need to pay attention to anything except building threat.

I do think that any "benchmark" needs to account for some degree of movement, since a tanking spec that lets you pull good threat only while standing still might not be the best for the many fights where you need to move. Movement makes GCDs more valuable, and thus makes Blood, for example, less attractive. I would probably say that Grobbulus is a pretty good benchmark, or Sartharion (without drakes, of course) for a less-movement-intense example.

Montegomery · 02/05/09, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by huntcaudata

Why wouldn't you use Faerlina, Maexxna, Grob, Saph? Sure, on Maexxna you aren't generating threat for 20 seconds of the fight, but that should be accounted for in WWS, on Saph for a little longer. On Grob all you do is tank and backpedal.

WWS considers DoTs as DPS time. This will artificially depress the stated TPS or DPS of any class with a DoT during periods of downtime. Thus, a DK's diseases will skew their TPS numbers. Faerlina has adds which can potentially skew the numbers as well. Since WWS counts DPS done on multiple targets in your overall DPS, I'm sure it does the same for TPS.

The same issues effectively exist in any fight that isn't tank and spank.

Originally Posted by Raedix

Movement makes GCDs more valuable, and thus makes Blood, for example, less attractive.

I don't understand this point. Movement makes using one's abilities more difficult, but that seems more a function of one's keybindings than one of the GCD specifically. Unless the tank actually escapes the boss entirely, one would expect a competitive tank to be able to continue their rotation even while moving (if slightly less precisely).

Pyros · 02/05/09, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

I don't understand this point. Movement makes using one's abilities more difficult, but that seems more a function of one's keybindings than one of the GCD specifically. Unless the tank actually escapes the boss entirely, one would expect a competitive tank to be able to continue their rotation even while moving (if slightly less precisely).

I think he meant moving out of range, which happens a lot if you actually have to move fast. Backpedalling works fine to keep a full cycle while moving, when you strafe to avoid a lava wall on drake tanking however, you're out of range for a sec or two depending on how far you go, which tends to throw the most complicated rotations out of the window, and blood is probably the most heavy GCD. As frost, you just howling blast or IT if you're out of range, and the rotation has no particular order and lower disease requirements(1IT every 18secs when you usually cast it every 10secs anyway).

meero · 02/05/09, 10:28 PM

As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.

All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.

Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.

Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.

Foundry · 02/05/09, 11:16 PM

You answered your own question though.

Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks

Raid was stacked in their favour, and they had damage multipliers. You had no synergy and no multiplier to your threat. It's the way of malygos, dps will catch you in that circumstance.

Veets · 02/05/09, 11:45 PM

The only relatively viable "tank-spank" mobs for comparison would be Loatheb or Sarth (no drakes). Even still, both have their flaws (Loatheb won't register heals outside of the healing-window, Sarth can have periods of no-contact-time depending on how careful you tank him). So, while I know people are giddy linking their TPS vs. "x-raid-mob" with "x-spec", the only real use is for us to analyse anomalies in your reports. ie. "My TPS was insane vs. Maexxna, what's going on?" or "I couldn't push more than 2k vs. Malygos, I'm not doing anything different... what up?". Link results if they have something interesting to contribute like demonstrating a synergy we've not yet considered, but otherwise they're just a wasted post =\

Ghaash · 02/06/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Veets

The only relatively viable "tank-spank" mobs for comparison would be Loatheb or Sarth (no drakes). Even still, both have their flaws (Loatheb won't register heals outside of the healing-window, Sarth can have periods of no-contact-time depending on how careful you tank him). So, while I know people are giddy linking their TPS vs. "x-raid-mob" with "x-spec", the only real use is for us to analyse anomalies in your reports. ie. "My TPS was insane vs. Maexxna, what's going on?" or "I couldn't push more than 2k vs. Malygos, I'm not doing anything different... what up?". Link results if they have something interesting to contribute like demonstrating a synergy we've not yet considered, but otherwise they're just a wasted post =\

Every boss that grants the same conditions for threat to every tank should be a worthwhile benchmark. Not for benchmarking THE threat of a given spec/gear, but comparing specs and gear on the same bosses. Yes, Patchwerk hits fast so Runestrike is at its maximum, but other bosses hit slow and/or do other things that favor a spec, a weapon or a special group composition. Obviously, deaths on Thaddius, aoe-threat on Faerlina/Maexxna/Noth and other things skew the possible single-target threat in reports.
I don't think it's that bad to get an overall idea of what certain specs are capable of while tanking all of naxx. And for the "interesting to contribute"-part: i still have to see that single-target threat superiority that blood claims to have.

Merogondinne · 02/06/09, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by meero

As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.

All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.

Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.

Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.

Try a frost spec with 3 demo you should benefit from Coe who's just great for frost DK, if your second DK has Ebon plague it will also increase your magic damage for 13%

Frost is for me the best mono target build for the moment because it take adventage from physical buff ( +AP/Str will increase your disease and spells damage ) and a big part of magic buffs ( +x% magic damage etc ... ) and it will just become godly after the 3.1 if gargoyle and UB switch place in the skill three.

Personaly i'wont consider Patch as a good threat benchmark because you'll probably be under the effect of buffs for an half or more of the fight you don't have in other situation ( heroism 50% of the fight time on saph is not realistic, nor it is on sarth ).

Ps : again sorry for my crap english

Frostblood · 02/08/09, 5:46 AM

I have a question, if i'm allowed, even if it's not on the subject the previous posts are talking about.
I see none of the favourite tanking builds prefered on these threads, including the spell deflecting talent 3/3 from blood tree. I really dunno why ppl are not including that, because usually the parry chance of a normal DK tank is arround 18-20 %, and with blade barrier is 30%. That means 30% to avoid 30% of an incoming spell attack. That alot i'd say, and it's even better then those 6% increased stamina and +6 expertise from VotTW. Am i the only one to think deflecting is an awesome talent wich is a must have?
For the comparison, use the values of avoidance a DK usually has: arround 45 % rough avoidance for melee; put on top of that 30% of spell deflecting. That beside the magic dumpage the DK has from the start.
I'd like some comments please.

liquidox · 02/08/09, 5:55 AM

We now have two threads discussing DK tanking, I don't really see the difference between the two, shouldn't we be closing this one? Since the other one has an OP that is planning to keep it up-to-date.

Siawn · 02/12/09, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by meero

As a blood tank how much threat are you losing TPS wise by having no source of sunder etc.. in the raid? And if you run with a mainly caster dps group where can't be assured of good melee buffs is blood maybe a bad choice.

All this stemming from tanking a 10man malygos with basically all range where struggled with threat and DPS had to back off a fair bit in phase1. Group makeup a bit weird 3locks, mage, 2dk, resto priest/druid, hunter, ele. Sparks were done pretty well so most of the time they had 2 sparks.

Had just completed a 10man Naxx with same group with no real problems, only real difference is had no lotp for malygos and no vortex phase where locks dots still ticking.

Wondering if worth worrying about, Im more sorta interested though if any real numbers out there on how badly lack of group synergy hurts for TPS and if maybe if mainly do 10mans Frost/Unholy is a better choice.

Yes, as a Blood tank you are a bit more dependent on things like Sunder Armor, but you are also more dependent on gear. Blood has the tightest rotation, and therefore is far more affected by misses, dodges, and parries. On top of this, Blood is more dependent on having solid expertise because it does not have Frost Strike as an attack that cannot miss, assuming you're hit capped.

Looking at your gear, you're low on hit (263), and low on expertise (26 MINIMUM). Trade out your def gems for hit, since you're over uncrittable as it is, and consider going Frost until you get a bit more expertise on your gear. All the mitigation and hp in the world is worthless if you can't hold the mobs on you.

czokalapik · 02/12/09, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Siawn

...you're low on hit (263)...

it's low? sorry, but hit cap for 2h is 8%, so 263 is EXACT hit required to be capped.

Siawn · 02/12/09, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by czokalapik

it's low? sorry, but hit cap for 2h is 8%, so 263 is EXACT hit required to be capped.

If you bothered to look at his armory, he isn't hit capped. I was listing the amount he needed.

Bloodscape · 02/13/09, 8:24 PM

I'm curious what rotation are you guys using for the 23/45/3 spec.

I'm wondering about doing without ps as it doesn't contribute much.

IT/BS/BS/HB/FS/FS
HB/OB/IT/IT/FS/FS

Or mabe something like

IT/HB/BS/BS/FS/FS
HB/IT/FS/HB/IT/FS

Any tips?

Also any word on acclimation? It totally bugged out and not worth taking?