Geims

Zerath,

I read your post more than once and I agree on many points.

Unlike you, I preferred the AMS because having tried many times in instances, I like it. It's useful to have a good help against caster boss.

I like your spec but however there are a lot spec without Lichborne.
I read someone who said that he preferred don't give too much relax to the healer but I have confidence in my healer. =)

 

Khana

It has been said more than once in this thread that the mechanics of a tanking DK won't let you choose specific tanking stats on your weapon, but that like a Paladin, you use your weapon to generate threat, therefore you're going to choose for a "dps" weapon, with expertise.

About Gems and Enchants... what's the total agility you can get from gemming to agility? And what's the total of Str? How many defense or direct parry/dodge are you going to lose by gemming and enchanting to agility?
I'd rather go gemming dodge directly, again, it's cheaper than dodge gained with agility.
What's the point in gemming for 20 agility when in the same socket you can put a 20 dodge rating?

 

Rejju

This is actually a spec I listed, or very similar to, on page 12. It's a solid unholy tank build. Wandering plague is nice, but there are more important things to get. It's a chance equal to your crit, which in tank gear, is usually pretty low compared to dps. Desecration is also very nice for the 5% boost, but there are plenty of fights that you need to be mobile and you won't be able to stay in it all the time.

 

Asmadai

Well, I mean isn't one of the highlights of taking 3/3 Ebon Plague the fact that we bring a 13% magic damage increase to a target over say, Curse of the Elements which is only 10%? If you are only going 2/3 Ebon, that's only a 9% increase, and given that Curse is 10%, and Earth and Moon from Boomkins is 13%, that kinda negates the whole point of putting any points into Ebon Plague, save for the +crit chance. Sure, it's still easier for us to apply the %damage increase to a group of mobs than a Druid/Warlock can, but I'm looking at it more from the single target point of view.

(This is under the assumption that Ebon Plague/Curse of Elements/Earth and Moon do not stack, and I'm almost certain they don't.)

 

Feverdreams

Very good point and one that I completely overlooked. I recant

 

Geims

Now...

I have to main-tank in 5man heroic instance and off-tank in 10man raid.

Could be better spec like 10/51/10 than mine 9/11/51?

In blood tree I taked talent that give me much damage on Obliterate (like subversion and 2h specialization) and in unholy tree I taked dodge, +6 sec on frost fever and strength (parry).
The frost tree is like any frost tree that you can see here.

Frost tree could be harder to kill but I can't AoE tank like Unholy.

I don't know how to do... =/

 

Rejju

Frost has no issues AoE tanking. Essentially, all you gain is outbreak and UB and you cannot open up with UB anyway. Pestilence, boil blood and Death and Decay are what you really need for AoE tanking. Frost gets howling blast to help and unholy gets unholy blight to help. Also, this is a bit better frost spec than the one that you have. Subversion is a dps talent.

 

Hrank

The tree is estimated as sub-par for end-game raiding right and left. The main DK Tank thread focuses on frost and Unholy builds and compares some of the talents obtained in these two trees one to the other.

Before throwing considerations about Blood around, I'll take the occasion to indicate my spec of choice in Unholy. Looked more amusing. Also, knowing how good paladin can get at tanking AOE, it seemed to me like a better choice than Frost. At least more appealing. One of the selling points being Bone Armor of course.

It's way easier to tell what Frost and Unholy are good at than Blood. I'd rather think through its talents before dismissing it entirely as a serious tanking spec.

Since Blood doesn't have the mitigation of either Frost's Unbreakable Armor or Unholy's Bone Armor, if Blizzard has done the job correctly, there's some thing or other in the tree that supposedly should make up for them. The question is identifying what and how.

The talents in Blood, in additon to the ones genereting threat, revolve around regaining some HP one way or another. However it is similar in a way to mitigation, not taking as much damage is probably better than regaining the damage that happened.

The principle remains viable though, as long as the damage taken doesn't exceed the tank's current health. Even if it provokes epidermic reactions, regaining health still is a form of mitigation.

What I think should be determined follows:
How much HP should a Blood Knight regain over a duration equal to Unbreakable Armor's in order to equate its mitigation?
Do they at Tier 7?
Is there a point where it will ever become possible? Is this point something realistic to reach in the game?

A side question to that would be: is there ever a point when taking a Blood Death Knight instead of another tank allows to switch any number of healer(s) into any number of additionnal DPS?

Death to Omni! Long live the Clans!

 

Rejju

There are 4 things that a blood dk really brings to a raid. Mark of Blood, Abomination's Might, Aura of Blood and Hysteria. Unfortunately, a Blood tank, brings nothing that a Blood dps brings. A blood dps can still OT with the right gear. I feel that there are serious mitigation issues to blood and the self healing they are able to have, just doesn't make up for that loss.

 

Fenwick

Howdy all. So I'll be switching my DK over to a tank spec soon-ish here, and I've perused the thread for much valuable information. One thing I haven't seen (or at least I hope I didn't outright miss), however, is word on the best runeweapon enchant to use for tanking. I'd like to assume it's a no-brainer and we should be getting the +4% parry to 2H (swordshattering), but I figured I'd pose the question in case it is a brainer. So. swordshattering or fallen crusader? Or something else?

 

Rejju

I would say that the passive bonus from the 4% parry is greater than the chance to heal and increase strength.

 

Geims

Fenwick,
+4% parry is the top for a lot of tank but if you got equip with much strength (over 800) the fallen crusader should be better.


Rejju,
You think that unholy built is better fot what I need?

 

Suno

Subversion is a TPS talent that gives a much needed boost to Frost's eventual issue: single target TPS. Once casters and warriors get very well geared, rest assured that threat will again be a concern. On beta, I was frost tanking trash flawlessly, yet single target threat lacked. I very much like morbidity, but inexperienced frost tanks have much to learn about the problems they'll face at the EoE25 gear level. Our TPS scales poorly and it forces us into subversion. Don't inaccurately discount that talent.

 

Rejju

Higher base damage is better than potential crit damage. You'd be better off putting those 3 points into bladed armor to raise all your abilities TPS rather than 2 abilities potential TPS.

 

Nethris

Is that including the non-100% uptime of fallen crusader and diminishing returns on the parry rating from the bonus strength? If not, I suspect that hitting a point where fallen crusader is better mitigation in tanking gear will be almost impossible, though for content not in danger of killing the tank it may be the best option as a threat enchant.

Though very situational, on very heavy magic damage fights, or in fights that silence frequently, spellshattering is probably worth considering. Heroic Nexus trash for instance has places that silence while you need to be AoE tanking, and being unable to refresh death and decay, icy touch, use either taunt, cast UB or deathcoil, etc can be really annoying with a 5 or 6 second silence - though with so few situations like this, I suspect that unless you need it for a boss fight that leaving spellshattering on your second or third best tanking weapon would be sufficient once you have multiple decent ones.

 

Darial

Can someone confirm which fights AMS is truly needed? I'm finding I can tank easily without it. I think it may be more of a pvp-based talent.

 

Raspyn

When Fallen Crusader procs, it gives a +30% strength bonus over 15 seconds. As far as I understand, its proc rate is 1 PPM.

With 800 strength, Fallen Crusader would give a bonus strength of 240, and increased parry rating of 60.
At level 80, 49.18499 parry rating = 1% parry chance
Therefore, 60 parry rating = 1.22% parry chance.

You must also recognize that Fallen Crusader's uptime is about 25%, assuming an ideal proc rate of 1 PPM (15 seconds of every 60). As such, the effective mitigation benefit of Fallen Crusader is 25% of what was stated above. In other words, at 800 strength, Fallen Crusader is worth 0.30% effective parry chance.

The final nail in the coffin for Fallen Crusader vs Runeshattering is that the parry rating through the strength bonus is also subject to diminishing returns, further reducing the mitigation benefit of Fallen Crusader.


For fun, I did some quick calculations to see exactly how much strength would be required to give Fallen Crusader a parry rating equivalent to 4% parry. These quick calculations ignore diminishing returns on parry rating.

Considering that Fallen Crusader's proc rate and duration, the bonus would have to yield 16% parry to equate to a constant bonus of 4% (where 16% * 15 seconds / 60 seconds = 4%).
16% parry = 786.95984 parry rating.
To achieve a parry rating if about 787, a bonus strength of about 3,148 is required. Considering that Fallen Crusader is a strength bonus of 30%, you would need to have a strength value of roughly 10,493 (i.e., not happening this expansion, or for the next 12 expansions).

Long story short, sword shattering is much, much greater than fallen crusader for mitigation.

 

Tilted

While you're dead-on regarding your conclusion of which weapon enchant is better, this statement is pretty far off. Assuming Fallen Crusader procs off special attacks, the uptime would be much higher than 25%. Consider a 3.6s weapon, which would have a 6% proc rate assuming 1 PPM. If you only look at auto attacks, you'll average 16.67 attacks per minute, with 1 proc per minute. But if you consider specials, which can add 30-35 more attempts per minute, the uptime is much higher. Consider a case where you get 50 attacks over a 60 second time frame, and the uptime jumps to a potential 75%.

All that out of the way, Fallen Crusader is clearly a DPS enchant, and stellar for PvP. For tanks though, don't bother.

 

Suno

Did you read my post? I said morbidity, not bladed armor. Feel free to reread the post the OP was built on, found here.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the OP is not current.

 

Rejju

Personally I don't like morbidity for Frost tanks, simply because AoE pulls should die faster than needing to use it again. Spamming pestilence, boil blood and howling blast on cool down should be sufficient with out spending those extra runes on DnD. That and frost tanks don't use death coil. I prefer bladed armor over subversion for tanking builds. Once again, it's all about personal opinion.

I do on the other hand, see a huge advantage in picking both up. I looked at your spec with imp icy talons, and I like it. The one "floater" point in morbidity could be spent in a lot of places, though. I don't feel 1 point in morbidity is very worthwhile. Once again, an opinion. Getting both bladed armor AND subversion have potential for sure. Actually, I feel the sudden need to respec again.

The only thing that I disagree with is not picking up frost presence. That's a hard talent not to get. So yeah other classes can nerf their dps to give totems, aura or aspects, but if a DK and do that with out sacrificing as much, shouldn't we do that?

Edit: The biggest question that I have for bucknasty is, why subversion over 2h weapon spec? I could justify going this spec I suppose, but isn't 2h weapon spec better? Personally, I'd say increasing all melee attacks by 4% is better than giving 2 of my abilities 6% more crit.

 

Zerath

Geims,

There's a difference between having confidence in your healer and just plain outright being a [mean person]. I have all the faith in my healers but starting next week when I'll start OTing 10mans and possibly some 25mans, when Patchwerk is punching me in the face (which is a healing intense encounter already) - I'd like that extra cooldown so my healers don't go "Wow. That was a lot of damage we couldn't heal through" while we're running back in.

I honestly don't know why raid tanking Unholy DKs are skipping a needed talent since people are weary about Unholy tanking without a decent avoidance rate already.

AMS - I can count on one hand how many times I've used this ability (meaning to, mind you, I accidentally fat finger it) in instances. It's never been a "Must have!" for me and seems it won't be from my take on Naxx/Obisidian - negate a flame breath once a minute, I'll give you that.

It's just not worth the 5pts you're taking out of other talents, in my opinion. (6 pts because of AMZ.)

The answer is another question - where else would those 2 points be spent otherwise? Paladin aura is worth more than our Presence, correct?

 

◊ Eej

It's been said before and I'll say it again. Imp MOTW gives you 75 resist all and does not stack with Frost Aura.

 

Rejju

MotW rank 9 is 54 resist, the talent increases is by 40% giving it ~75 resist all. Frost presence is 80 at level 80. Pally auras will only do shadow, fire and cold. Hunter aspect does nature. Totems do all but shadow. None give arcane. Frost presence is the only resist buff that does 80 resist all. And it's worth mentioning that it cannot be dispelled. In addition to that, you can allow your druids to spec other things to min/max their builds since you have 80 resist all anyways.

 

Zerath

You're forgetting the other stats it buffs, also. Thus making the talent even more likely to be specced in to instead of out of.

(I'm a being ignorant and thinking of a different talent?)

 

Mild Confusion

I can confirm that a Rune Strike crit can proc Killing Machine.