Vinexia

On Crit Rates:
5 base + 1.5 horn + 9 sub + 5 conv + 3 anni = 23.5 for Heartstrike and Obliterate.
Rune strike has similar crit rates if you glyph it, especially now that it has no additional cost.

If you have a fury warrior or feral druid that's a 28.5% chance to crit on a very large portion of your damage. This is not insignificant or low.

Additionally on the topic of Deathstrike replacing Obliterate:
If your dps is geared you will need to Obliterate. As we gain more gear the value of Deathstrike as a threat move is reduced less and less. Additionally the DS glyph just got a significant nerf. The Obliterate glyph just received a very substantial buff. DS and Obliterate for threat moves aren't even in the same ballpark and having Blood Gorge bounce up and down over the course of a fight while using even (rough figures) 1300 pt DS's raid buffed cannot compare to 2500 pt Obliterates.

 

Pyros

The blood build I was looking at was something like this
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
You definitely want Sub, it's excelent for threat. I was hesitating between switching the 2points from 2H spec into Bloodworms, or from Blood Vengeance, but worms tend to die a lot so not sure it's worth it. That lone point in worms could be put into blood aura or whatever.

I do not take Abom's might because there's always a DPS providing it, either an enh sham or one of our 3 blood DKs. Blood aura for the same reason. I do take spell deflection because I think it's one of the bonus of being blood spec, and a lot of bosses actually use spells, but I'm unsure about how efficient it'd actually be, since my guess is it doesn't work on stuff like dragon's breath, since it says Direct Damage, and breaths are cone AEs. I take hysteria though because it's totally free, and it's a good boost to cast on a DPS.

Overall I'm a bit excited about trying to tank as Blood, because it seems pretty different than what I did before. That and I don't really feel like playing frost, and with bone shield nerfs I'm not sure it'll be that viable anymore, but might be. Between this and all the def I can get on sigil+weap letting me regem all my gear, I'm really eager to get this patch.

 

Coriolanus

I'm excited about a blood tank's viability in the coming patch as well, though I'm still a firm believer in unholy because of it's ability to pick up lots of adds with UB and reduced cooldown on DnD with Morbidity.

Of course, any tanking spec, with a few sacrificed, can pick up morbidity too. I noticed you don't have it in your build. Have you not found much of a need for it at this point? Frost has HB to pick up extra adds (of course, you have to pestilence first), and I've already discussed unholy. How does Blood do it, or is it just the weakest of the three in terms of AoE tanking? (BB spam!)

I particularly like the possibility of single target tanking with Blood, especially between the massive amount of stat increases compared to other builds and the nice half uptime of increased heath through vampiric embrace. The Will of the Necropolis change puts it over the top in my mind though (in light of the IBF nerf). I loved that talent as a pally, as that's a really significant amount of damage you're reducing. That can be the window between getting that extra heal in (on yourself or from your healers) and not.

 

Pyros

With Pestilence on no cooldown, HS hitting 2 targets and improved bloodboil(I think?) it shouldn't be an issue. The reason I don't get morbidity however isn't because I don't like it, but because I can't use it on some fights. As I explained a few pages back in this thread, for some people, myself included, having Morbidity will make your DnD on massive AE drop your FPS to 0. For example, even though I'm on add tanking on Sartharion(with a basic unholy spec), I do not take morbidity because it's impossible for me to use DnD when I most need it(whelps spawn) with Morbidity. Why, I have no idea, but I've tested with and without in onyxia lair on whelps, and it's definitely morbidity killing my framerate. With 0/3 I can AE all the whelps in the room np, with 1-3/3, I freeze for the whole DnD duration or until mobs are dead. That's why I tend to try to make builds without it until it's fixed. It's not a big issue however. I rarely need DnD for sustained AE threat, in AE situations, you only need enough threat to pull ahead of AErs for like 10secs then everything dies. 45s cooldown is ok in those situations.

As I said however, I'm eager to TEST blood, and my build is definitely not the final version, I'll see how it goes with actual tanking experience. I have like 4-6different unholy tanking builds that I switch depending on raid compo and what we're raiding, and I'll probably do the same for Blood. I'm lucky enough to have an alt pumping titansteels everyday for like a 150g gain in 30secs(the time it takes to AH the mats, run to the mailbox, craft it and put it on AH, <3 Thunderbluff), so respec costs are a non issue and I respec almost everyday. I will definitely end up with one blood build with morbidity, because even though it lags me, it's only on massive AEing, and it's fine for speed clearing heroics or naxx trash.

 

Griefknight

I am curious to see how blood will do versus frost in an AOE situation. I would also like to see Hungering Cold receive something along the lines of [ 30% of AP ] frost damage added to the affect.

 

◊ Eej

Uhh, Hungering Cold is already very good at what it's designed for. Adding damage to Hungering Cold would not only be excessive, but it would also begin impinging upon Howling Blast's role. They're already considering removing the cooldown on Howling Blast so if that's not enough AE for you, well, I'm not really sure what to say.

 

Metapod

Hungering cold is useless outside of PvP and 5 mans.
Do you have a citation for this, I have never read anything about the removal of HB cooldown. I know that GC has said that they didn't want to remove the cool down because they wanted to balance it with obliterate.

On a tanking discussion; I for one, with the new patch, will be going back to frost. Mostly because of the buff to glyph of unbreakable armor, glyph of obliterate, and another glyph that might be buffed.

I hope they do something with hungering cold to make it a little more worthwhile for PvE tanking.

 

Neddie

Late tonight I finally figured out what was bugging me about Smaug's analysis here. The problem is that the assumption is that the DK is at 540 defense and is trying to decide whether to use swordshattering or stoneskin gargoyle.

The trouble is that that getting to 540 defense typically involves a lot of sacrifices, like ignoring socket bonuses to gem for defense, using any defense enchant you can find, and obtaining a somewhat rare blue-quality trinket. I'm at 540 defense exactly in my current tanking gear, but to get there I have to use a defense enchant on my cloak, bracers and chest, and have to ignore a few socket bonuses so I can use 16 defense rating gems in them.

What stoneskin gargoyle does is allows you to choose the most appropriate gem/enchant for a slot, instead of focusing purely on defense. Stoneskin gargoyle lets you get stam to chest instead of defense, stats to bracers instead of defense, agility to cloak instead of defense, and choose (at a minimum) 8 dodge/ 8 defense, 8 str/ 8 defense, or 12 stam / 8 defense gems instead of 16 defense gems.

So, the question really becomes "Do you get more benefit out of 4% parry, or out of freeing up the need to find 123 defense rating from gems and enchants?"

If you're in best-in-slot naxx-25 gear, you will probably find it very easy to hit 540 defense while maintaining socket bonuses and choosing non-defense enchants. At that point, stoneskin gargoyle loses its lustre. If you're just barely able to make 540 defense by socketing and enchanting almost exclusively for defense, then gargoyle may be your better bet because being crit immune at 515 defense allows you to keep socket bonuses and use enchants other than the defense enchants.

 

Clandestine

The avoidance granted by the defense from Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle does not appear to suffer from diminishing returns. I'm working off the assumption that the total percents displayed on the character stat summary (not those displayed under the defense tooltip) correctly reflect diminishing returns. If this is true (which, from my limited testing, it appears to be - to test, I removed a piece of gear which only affected my dodge through defense, then re-equipped it and subtracted the values shown under the defense tooltip and on the dodge portion of my character screen, and the difference between the dodge values was different than the difference shown under the defense tooltip), then Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle is not suffering from diminishing returns, which raises its value considerably.

Without Stoneskin Gargoyle:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1...8023702jj8.jpg

With Stoneskin Gargoyle:
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4...8023713gu5.jpg

 

Davia

There's no reason that Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle should suffer diminishing returns. It isn't adding a rating, it's adding straight Defense skill just like Swordshattering adds straight parry percentage. As I understand it, only avoidance gained through rating and stats is subject to diminishing returns.

Blood tanking really seems quite compelling to me with the PTR changes, with the big drawbacks being worse AOE threat and that the spec I prefer doesn't have Lichborne or improved IT.

 

ptRkgo

Hello, first time poster long time reader anyway..

I just wanted to get a few ideas on a spec I made up for blood tanking next patch:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pretty much after collecting most of the tanking talents/cooldowns the only choices I see are how many/which DPS talents you would take or whether/whether not to pick up annihilation/epidemic (as one seems pretty pointless without the other).

I've decided (obviously) to try this one out first before I test without epidemic/anni but it seems this build offers a much more forgiving rotation in regard to raid dynamics. The DPS points have been allocated according to the DPS% value per point as per the compendium.

 

Shadai

I'm no expert on blood, but I see several things that make me go.... hmmm....?

Like why 5 points into blood gorged? I know decent healers should keep you around 75% all the time... but sometimes this just isn't possible. I feel that this is mainly a DPS talent, as DPS aren't taking the hits and when they do, its mostly splash or they pulled agg. However, if this is a tank build, then your job as a tank is to take the hits, so you may not always be at or above 75%. For a tanking talent, I think the 5 points are better spent elsewhere to get more return.

Second, I see you spent points on Annihilation but you didn't buy the points in blood that specifically buff Obliterate, those being Subversion and Might of Mograine. I get that tank crit rating isn't all that, but its an easy 9% and the bump you get from MoM means more damage and thus, more threat.

Why Hysteria? I absolutely HATE this talent for a tank. Your not going to use it when your tanking. Why would you use it on your buddy? So he can do that much MORE damage and maybe surpass your threat? If you've read the thread it seems that some of the high end raiders are having problems staying up on threat and high melee dps like fury warriors and ele shaman are riding them right to the ceiling. I just don't see a use for this talent in a tank build.

I think your loss of Morbidity is a error as well. It appears at first glance that Unholy is the best at AOE tanking, Frost a close second, and Blood is third... I would think taking Morbidity for the cooldown reduction on DnD would be a top priority to a Blood tank. Furthermore, it chains with the blood ability Sudden Doom quite nicely, if you have the points to spare for it.

 

Siawn

I agree with most of your points, but I think your dismissal of Hysteria is a bit short-sighted. Toss it to a rogue, and they can vanish off the threat. Admittedly, rogues are less than ideal because so much of their damage comes from poisons now, but it would be an impressive dps increase none-the-less. I'm afraid I don't know hunters well enough to say for certain, but from the wording it sounds as though this would buff hunter damage as well, since other than SS/AS I believe their damage is considered physical. To any class with a way to wipe hate, or on any fight where threat is not an issue, Hysteria is a very useful buff, and well worth one point in my opinion.

 

Shadai

Granted, but I think your getting situational here. Is it a point your going to use all of the time? Probably not. And I believe that there are too many talents that are going to waste that should have points in them that will help ALL of the time. Remember, we are trying to min/max with effectiveness, and spec'ing a point to help your rogue friend do more damage is not max'ing your ability to tank.

After all, this thread generally frowns on things that dupicate effort like IIT and Frost Aura because there are already established raid areas that have these things in place thru other classes. Lets not reinvent the wheel here.

I did do some easy math on Hysteria just for fun.

Take a 30k raid buffed, blood spec'd tank who pops Hysteria (on himself for some reason)

30000*.01=300

Thats 300 damage per second hes going to take in addition to the boss hate. The enrage last 30 seconds at 300dps:

300*30=9000 damage total over 30 seconds

Granted, its over time.

9000/30000=.3

Essentially, using the talent on yourself you just lost 30% of your HP over 30 seconds. And thats in addition to the boss hitting you for whatever your not mitigating. And that math works no matter what the HP total, its always a 30% loss. Easily figured out if you take the 1% times the 30 seconds of the talent but meh. It may not seem like much, but I'm certain it would be a noticable loss to the healers who are trying to heal you thru it.

 

◊ Eej

DRW is mostly useless for tanking as well. A lot of talents are useless for PvE yet they still serve their purpose very well. Hungering Cold does what it's designed to do very well so there is no reason to change it.

Hysteria is not a duplicate of any other ability. Taking one point to "help your physical DPS friend do more damage" isn't "maxing your ability to tank" but it's certainly maxing your ability to clear raid content by increasing raid DPS at a minimal cost to your own threat and mitigation capabilities.

It is, in fact, a point you will use all the time. Hysteria does not invoke GCD, nor does it cost any runes or runic power so when would you not use it?

 

Flamingcloud

As for a blood tanking spec I would be thinking something along these lines.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If you don't get Annihilation you basically have to get death rune mastery. Basically at this point, you don't need epidimic, you have no need to get an extra death strike in before doing IT/PS, and pestillence being no cooldown means that keeping diseases aoe is quite easy without it.

I think Vampiric Blood is by far the best of the three cooldowns with the bone armor nerf and the new vampiric blood glyph. The UA glyph will eventually not do anything now, and is a nerf in my opinion as with inspiration + ua we are going to be at the armor cap.

If Will of the Necropolis works like any hit that would put you in the 0-35% range is reduced by 15% then blood is pretty much the undisputed best single target tank survivability wise. As to single target threat, I have no idea if it is better or worse, I am sure it's aoe threat is down a lot, but thats probably ok.

 

MissnL1nK

I have to ask why none of you are including Lichborne into any Blood tanking specs. The mitigation in that spec is already somewhat small so I would think taking Lichborne would be almost obvious.

I am no expert on these things but here is a spec that I created for Blood tanking if anyone wants to give an opinion on it.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

My better smells like french toast.

 

ptRkgo

Well It's threat - it should be up most of the time and the expertise bonus is up all the time. I believe expertise is essential for DK's especially while tanking as it indirectly provides a small amount of mitigation but more that it's great for threat. Dropping the points still wouldn't allow enough for frigid dreadplate while considering the rest of your feedback.

Annihilation wasn't taken in the sense that it would "buff obliterate" more that it allows blood rotations to be more forgiving in terms of the raid dynamics - you take epidemic to increase the duration but annihilation so that it's worthwhile (3% crit is decent too!). I was looking at including MoM or Subversion but it still turned out a bit iffy, I couldn't really get any more than 1/3 MoM without dropping the annihilation/epidemic standpoint so I checked the compendium for its DPS% increase per talent point (translating to threat for me in this case) and it gave higher values for Abom's Might and Bloody Vengeance than subversion + 1/3 MoM which made sense too since they affect all of our damage.

I believe Hysteria is a great addition to the raid, especially for one point. This appears to have mixed viewpoints but I think that the damage increase provides warrants just one talent point even in a tank spec. I don't know whether you've tried building a tree yourself but I felt it was worth it when looking where else to place a point. Of course with all this I mean for it to be cast on someone else and not oneself. If the high end/geared raiders are having trouble on threat it's more to blame on the design, until I personally encounter threat issues I'll keep hysteria (and as mentioned it can still be dropped onto a class that can control their threat, not as beneficial but beneficial nevertheless)

I thought about morbidity and haven't really discarded the idea I felt I needed to try blood AoE tanking with the cleave/pestilence/outbreak change as that shown spec before really deciding whether or not to take it. There's no real need to recast DnD in 5 mans typically it just allows for quicker chain pulls but is can also be very awkward to cast; with respect to raids if there are add rush fights people just tend to throw paladins at them (we have a great paladin tank that usually lands those jobs) although it may see better use in 10 mans IMHO. I guess I had more in mind single/double target tanking when putting this spec together I plan to roll with the VB glyph so the short cd/long uptime plus IBF, rune tap, trinkets and lichborne seem like enough buttons to push for mitigation/staying alive




Thanks for feedback though - still looking for more!

Edited: Meant frigid dreadplate instead of unbreakable armor

 

Flamingcloud

If threat/dps was a non-issue I would agree with you that lichborne was the right choice, but quite frankly your giving up either might of mograine, blood gorged, or morbidity for lichborne and I would rather any of those.

I just don't see how you could do sufficient aoe threat as blood without morbidity.

Your giving up so much single target threat with your spec that I doubt you could hold aggro, no bloody vengance, no might of mograine, really don't know why you would not get bloody vengance. Even with tank crit you will have 0 problems keeping it stacked at 3. Bloodworms are not helpful, their healing is trivial especially in 25 man, and the threat from their damage doesn't go to you.

The constant mitigation differences between frost, blood and unholy is that frost has 3% miss and acclimation, unholy has 5% magic mit, and blood now has 6% stam, 30+% to reduce direct spell by 30%, and whatever will of the necropolis does.

Cooldown wise you have differences but in the end blood wins over easily due to the ridiculousness of the vampiric blood glyph.


Like the other poster says,

You take both epidemic and annihilation, or you take neither. You aren't going to get epidemic so you can deathstrike once more per 20 seconds.

 

MissnL1nK

So you are suggesting that I drop Epidemic and Abomination's Might, put another point in Imp. Rune Tap and max out Bloody Vengence.

Something like this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

My better smells like french toast.

 

Flamingcloud

That is exactly the build I posted, so yes I am suggesting that spec. It has about close to the best threat you could get from blood both single, and multi-target, and still have all the big mitigation things. I'd try to fit abom's might in if I wasn't expecting to have a enh shaman or was still running a lot of 5 mans, but if that was the case I probably would just go frost to provide windfury anyways.

 

Clandestine

Well, every single post on the subject of Stoneskin Gargoyle has been assuming that the avoidance gained through the defense would suffer from diminishing returns, including one quoted directly above me, so forgive me if I didn't know that this has somehow become common knowledge.

 

Lanlaorn

Actually I don't think anyone knows, and it really should be tested by someone with some free time on their hands.

 

Griefknight

This may seem like an outrageous question but I am new to tanking and I need some help. Do I want to lean towards avoidance or health when it comes to tanking, I do realize both has its advantages over the other. For example, would I want [Essence of Gossamer] or [Valor Medal of the First War] (2.13% dodge, 8.51% dodge from use)? I will most likely drop my [Seal of the Pantheon] and get both of the previously stated trinkets due to all this new defense I get from my runeforge and sigil but this was just an example of what I'm trying to figure out.

 

Metapod

I am currently debating which is better glyph of icy touch or glyph of ice bound fortitude or glyph of rune strike

I plan to go frost spec with the upcoming patch because of the glyphs. +20% weapon damage to oblit (More threat), Glyph of unbreakable armor(+40% more armor when activated).

Now icy touch gives more RP and more RP = more threat
Ice bound fortitude is probably the worst of the three.
with the new rune strike(150% damage, 150% threat, about a 12% threat increase) critical strikes will threat exponentially compared to the old.