Writhe

Short answer is: Both. Build two sets, 3 if you have the loot resources. Warriors have been doing it for yonks.

Effective health set: maxing AC and HP this takes more overall damage, but is good for big slow hitting fights and is easier to heal through
Avoidance set: requires heals to watch for spike damage but reduces overall mana spent on healing you.
Max Threat: think Broodlord and fights that push enrage timers, max threat generation pushes the threshold that dps'rs get capped at. - Not really sure of the relevance of this set since wotlk threat / damage changes to tanking classes.

A lot of warriors usually built an avoidance set and merged in high dps pieces into it for higher threat.

Who pulled the surger with the core hound?

 

Platostotle

Is there any evidence for this, or just made up numbers? I only ask because Ghostcrawler has stated otherwise. Is Ghostcrawler somehow mistaken? Have I misinterpreted something?

Also, has anyone done any testing to conclusively show DnD is better for single target TPS than the OBs it keeps me from using?

 

Pyros

Max threat is still a very valid issue, at least as unholy. When the patch comes and blood becomes viable, it'll rock for these fights, but currently, I'm getting pushed by my DPS on threat on Sartharion if I tank the first drake. I simply don't have the tools to generate enough threat. All my gear is gemmed and enchanted for def to get the cap even though it's all epics(I do have 2free sockets, from being a smith) so no expertise, no strength. I use Rune Strike everytime is up, and use a solid rotation but I can't mix in DnD because I can't take morbidity because of this stupid bug I wish GC or anyone would aknowledge and start looking into, which makes DnD drop your FPS to 0 if you use it on a big pack of mobs with morbidity(and the same DnD won't if you don't have morbidity). So I have literraly no options to improve my threat in any way for single target tanking, but respecing to a blood unholy hybrid which can only tank these specific fights.

Next patch will be a gift for these situations, even though morbidity still won't be fixed which irritates me to no end, having DnD on 30s cooldown is really annoying. But at least I'll get to choose how I gem my gear, which is a pretty big improvement.

 

Zaroua

In practice, this is false in the vast majority of cases; unless your healers are stopcasting which opens up room for error and which is fatal with high avoidance and low HP/AC.

Also keep in mind that if your raid brings Blessing of Sanctuary, an avoidance set will become a pretty damn good threat set if you're binding Rune Strike to every key on your keyboard.

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Rufia

ok, i binded rune strike to pretty much every strike and move before reading this thread. and i must say its my number one dps ability on recount because of it, most of the time haha. depends what im tankin obviously, but yea. anyways, ive been getting an issue that keeps popping up and saying my addons are causing a high amount of lag or somethin and asking if i want to turn them off. i'm going to assume the problem is actually the macroed rune strike since its not ready for use everytime i hit a button. is this correct? do i have the wrong macro and just need to get a new one for the lag issue? btw my macro is something like:
#showtooltip Scourge Strike
/cast Scourge Strike
/cast runic strike
/script UIErrorsFrame:clear()

as well. while on the topic of macroing it to all your moves. i find it very problematic in some situations, such as aoe pulls, i find i cant possibly get enough RP to cast UB (though its going down to 40 instead of 60) because of all the rune strikes i'm doing. i've been thinking that it's possibly better just to have it macroed to a few buttons that i use often, but not every button, perhaps scourge strike and blood strike would be best as i use them mainly when im only tankin a few mobs or one boss, etc, for threat. and leave all of my aoe moves unmacroed. just a thought to all those who have been macroing it to every move :P.

 

Ghaash

As an Unholy Tank i macroed Rune Strike only to non-pull/aoe related skills, which are Blood Strike, Death Strike, Scourge Strike. This guarantees me 60 RP (with Icy Touch glyph) for Unholy Blight on my usual opening on packs: dnd-it-ps-pest-ub
and still gets most if not all of the Rune Strike procs for single target threat/dps.

Maybe you want to try a macro like this, which handles error messages a little more elegant.

#showtooltip Scourge Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Rune Strike
/cast Scourge Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/run UIErrorsFrame:Show()

 

Lurne

I'm currently leveling up to be an frost OT with the following spec. After reading up on rotations, the only thing that confuses me is the use of Oblit vs HB. I keep reading about the using HB only after Rime procs yet this seems like a tailor-made AoE threat ability while Oblit would be single target, yet rotations I see keep using Oblit over HB. Is DnD/Pest enough AoE threat to allow the use of Oblit over HB except when HB is free or am I correct in thinking that AoE rotations use HB?

Also, any comments on spec would be much appreciated - I got to a spec I liked and had three points left over - put them in Dark conviction for the dps/threat increase as Acclimation seems to not be in most Frost tank specs I've seen.

All advice is much appreciated.

 

Zerath

Put /cast Scourge Strike first otherwise you'll only get to use SS when RS is available. Learned that the hard way.

You're starting to read a lot more on single target threat due to we're tanking bosses more often than not now. It's indeedly correct that HB > OB when the mob count is greater than 1. DnD/Prest/BB/HB are your AoE abilities, don't confuse OB in there. :p

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of Killing Machine. At the greatest, we're talking 1 proc every 9-10 swings (including RS).

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This allows your shamans to be a little more flexible since you're taking the WF buff and applying it now. This also increases your melee dmg slightly. There's technically 3 points to play around with (2 in weapon spec). It's a fantastic raid utility - I've tried it but it wasn't for me quite yet. I find Unholy to win with the whole tanking situations. AMS/AMZ/BA are ungodly at times.

(AMZ is *very* situational but I tank Sarth frequently enough now, it's worth it.)

**Edit: Read over what I posted, a few typos. My apologies for the sub-par grammar.**

 

Ghaash

Definitely not on my machine. I can walk right up to a target dummy, press this macro one time and do a Scourge Strike.

 

Zerath

I never go to the target dummy so, I'm not sure about that. In mob pulls the first time I started macro'ing RS in to my 4 base abilities, I was unable to use BS/PS/IT/SS because Rune Strike was first.

Makes me wonder if the macro was just fail completely. I'll check this when my server goes live.

Thanks.

 

urotas

Surely the Unbreakable Armor glyph is still very good? Inspiration doesn't have anything close to 100% uptime in typical fights, and priests are often better suited for aoe healing anyway. As long as the glyph doesn't bring me over the armor cap with no other armor boosting effects, I'll use the UA glyph.

That being said, which 2 glyphs of Rune Strike, Frost Strike and Obliterate would be the best for threat generation as a frost tanking spec? With the buff to Rune Strike it'll be an even bigger part of our threat generation, so Rune Strike seems like a good choice. I'm not yet too familiar with frost tanking, so I can't really say which of the other two would be better after the patch. I often run with a protection paladin, but Blessing of Sanctuary isn't something I'll always have in 10-mans.

 

Raedix

Well, GC didn't specifically state that we couldn't get to the armor cap by stacking temporary skills, etc. I think he was merely stating that even with the best armor available, the new modifiers wouldn't push us close to the cap. Maybe not (and maybe Inspiration doesn't stack or stacks with only "natural" armor, not with the modified armor values), guess we just need some more info (or practical experience).

Well, we know the threat values of both DnD and the Obliterates. DnD has a 0.0475 dps attack power coefficient, and a 1.9x threat modifier. Personally, my DnD ticks for around 150 (I'm frost, so no boost to the attack power coefficient) and my Obliterates are for around ~1700... so DnD does 1500 damage (6000 threat) and Obliterate does ~3400 threat in Frost Presence. Blood Strike is around ~900dmg, so the three-rune total is comparable (assuming my numbers are reasonable, I'm at work, so they may be a bit off), although DnD still wins out. That said, I'm using [Black Ice] now, so I have a high top-end weapon damage and a relatively moderate attack power value in tank gear. That said, all the DK coefficients are on TankSpot, so feel free to do the calculation for yourself...

Now, I think the anecdotal evidence shows that DnD has superior threat primarily because it's easier. People don't have their rotations completely tight, and using DnD liberally makes it easier to "fit everything in". Effectively, it becomes a question of whether you need more DPS or TPS at this given time in a fight...

 

Telluride

I don't know if this has been posted anywhere (reading through the last several pages of this thread indicate to me that it has not) but for Unholy DKs, the Scourge Strike glyph (and of course using Scourge Strike with the reaping talent)does wonders for threat.

People can post all they want about DS > SS for threat and maintaining your complex rotations. My experience actually tanking pretty much all 25 man bosses for a highly competitive guild couldn't be more contradictory. I started off using DS and trying to stick to rotations (partly based off the "advice" given on these forums) but found SS to be vastly superior for threat. I've also found that trying to stick to a rotation, as a tank, is a lost cause and have since switched to a priority system. Icy Touch and Plague Strike if diseases are about to drop, Scourge Strike if it is available and Blood Strike if it is not. This also allows me to be flexible with runes when I may need to hit DnD, or Bone Shield or some other ability. With a priority system the Scourge Strike glyph can do no harm - on the contrary, it is absolutely amazing for threat.

 

Kyrié

What she said. I macro'd rune strike to "most abilities" and this will for sure ruin any sequence you hope to keep up. Yet I am not having the threat issues you all seem to be having. I also took dps glyphs with the exception of bone shield. You have to bare in mind this content is weak.

Provided you are defense capped and have a reasonable amount of health and AC your healers should be able to keep you alive.

I also did not have any of the issues discribed in posts about hitting the defense cap. There are 2 trinkets and numerous faction items with a ton of defense on. Grind rep and run heroics.

In raids keep bone shield up and use IBF / trinkets to stay alive through those oh shit moments.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/wsig.php/8344033BphjX.png

 

Karede

I found the same to be true. AE threat has never been a concern for me as with a D&D down once I spread disease with Pest. there is little chance they will be pulled off of me. Single target was more problematic and less forgiving as my guilds top DPS just keeps getting richer with drops for warlocks and hunters left and right. I then changed out my glyph for DS for the SS glyph. My TPS on single targets jumped quite a bit. 4400 TPS without the glyph up to 4800 TPS with it.

I also find that my DPS as a tank increased a bit from this as I get more damage out of one SS then I will from a combination of IT and PS. That said, if my diseases hit the 3 second mark without having been refreshed from SS then I will manually re-apply them, because there is no excuse for ever letting them fall off. But not having to constantly reapply those frees up runes and a GCD for things like refreshing Bone Shield, IBF, trinkets and whatever else I need them for.

 

Platostotle

Yes, because of the threat modifier I would expect it to be even for a single use, but also taking into account that DnD doesn't convert Blood runes into Death runes the question is more about the extra obliterates I'm not using spread out over length of long fight.

 

Shadai

You are hitting on a point that I feel is worth highlighting. I've found that having priorites rather then rotations is also the way to go.

I used to play a shadow priest in a raiding guild. If you've ever played a shadow priest, you know its all about rotating your skills for max dps, and if you are slightly off, your timing comes off and all the dps you've been building goes for naught and you have to essentially start over. (well, not entirely over, but if you mess it up its going to be several seconds before you get it humming at max efficency again).

I'm finding the DK to be like a strange combination of warrior and rogue with the rotations of a shadow priest.

Let me explain. As a shadow priest you have not just a rotation but Priorities. SW:P has to be up. Vamp touch and embrace has to be up. SW: D has to be used once it comes off Cooldown. MB has to be used once it comes off cooldown. There are several things your keeping track of (and if your not using Quartz, you really need to), disease up time and cooldown timers on the key, large damage strike abilities. Eventually you get into a rotation that works, VE, SW:P, VT, SW: D, MB, flay, flay, flay, VE, etc etc etc

My point is any rotation to be effective needs to have 100% application ALL the time. If you miss once and are stuck in a gcd, you've just thrown off the carefully adjusted rotation.

As a shadow priest its easy, you just stack +hit to the point nothing is resisted or missed anymore. Then it becomes a mind numbing rotation that you can probably macro.

However, I've found as a DK, this isn't always the case. It is IMPORTANT to know rotations and to know them so well that you can do them in your sleep. However, it is not the be all end all. I've found that having priorties is by far the better way to go.

For Example, here are my frost build Priorities:

1. Diseases are top priority to me. If its a single target, it needs both diseases at all times. For multiple mobs I prefer both but at the very LEAST each mob needs Frost Fevor.

2. DnD is a HUGE threat generator, its been proven in the field as well as mathmatically several times here in this thread. If DPS is riding my coattails then it becomes a use every time its off CD, every 15 seconds. If they are lagging behind I still try to keep it down, but it becomes less important. If I skip it and pound the boss with a couple of extra OB, eh, so be it.

3. RS. Learn it, live it, love it, tell it to a friend. In fact tell it to the boss. With the pointy end. Everytime its up.

4. Blood runes are NOT your friends. They are guests who get drunk, trash your place and have sex in your bed. Kill them whenever possible. Bloodboil for multiple mobs, BS for single target. Pestilance whenever necessary to keep #1 happy.

5. Howling Blast for muliple mobs every time rime procs or everytime its off CD. If its a single target, OB til the cows come home or something happens to #1 or #2. Helps with #4 when those pesky things come back cleverly disguised as death runes.

6. Locate, Anticipate, Annihilate. Always be looking for where the adds may be coming and position yourself and your abilites accordingly. If you know more mobs are about to show up... just relax a bit on that last OB and wait for one more blood/death rune so you can DnD appropriately or spread the love of disease.

I think having a rotation gets people too focused on whats next rather then whats happening. It's important to know whats next. Its vial your paying attention. If you miss with something you've just lost that time for the "perfect" rotation and its in that ensuing chaos that gets alot of people in trouble.

 

raei

I have a question regarding glyphs. At the moment I'm using DnD + Dark Command + Bone Shield/Unbreakable Armor. DnD glyph I love because it's just ridiculously good for aoe mitigation (although it does bug on certain mobs, making them run away, which sucks.) The shield is preference, and I'll probably switch that for a dps glyph now that my gear is getting better.

But what about Dark Command? I'd have thought that would be practically mandatory, but I've almost never seen it mentioned in this thread. Is a non-miss taunt really not that important? Am I completely wasting a glyph slot on this?

 

Kyrié

In a raid situation at least how often do you use DC ? I use it only on fights which require multiple tanks with stacking debuffs. Beyond that I'm using threat gen from my other abilities. I also found out that death gripping the wrong mob ... ie the boss ....gets his attention right away even though they are immune to it in general.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/wsig.php/8344033BphjX.png

 

Karede

I don't personally have DC glyphed (I went with Bone Shield, Scourge Strike and Pestilence) but I do find that I use it a decent amount of the time. More on trash than bosses though. The only bosses I really ever use it on are Gluth (either to switch the MS debuff or if I'm tanking adds to make sure they run to me and not a healer), T4H for obvious reasons and sometimes on Maexxna right after an enraged web wrap to give the healers a second to heal the other tank (assuming I'm not MT). I have enough hit couple with my Dranaei racial bonus that I have never actually seen it resisted in a raid setting. I'm not saying that it won't be, but it doesn't really seem to be an issue. Honestly, it's almost more useful if you're pugging a lot of heroics where you're more likely to get trigger happy DPS and need something to peel a mob off of them. Though personally I pick up the first one, let them die the next time to learn a lesson and usually don't have much trouble from them after that.

 

raei

That's a good point; Grip makes a great second taunt if DC gets resisted ... although it's probably worth noting that the mechanics are different and if your threat was behind it won't put you on top the way DC does. Regardless I guess that means I'm better off switching for a dps glyph since single target is so meh right now. DnD + OB/SS + BS/UA I guess, for my preference at least.

Edit: Having a 4hm resist does kind of scare me though ... although with the joys of ranged taunts Grip would probably delay them reaching the other tank long enough for DC's cooldown to refresh... hopefully. Then again there have been plenty of times on Gluth where the other tank's taunt has resisted and it hasn't really been any sort of problem for me to just hang on to doggy for awhile longer.

 

Raedix

Maybe I just have some preconceived notions that need to be drilled out of my head... but I don't see any reason a Frost tank would take Blood of the North. It's 5 valuable talent points, it buffs Blood Strike damage, but then provides a means to not use it! Even without that buffed damage, my Blood Strikes hit, on average, for about 50 damage less than half an Obliterate, and that's only due to Obliterate's higher crit rating... if I had to give up Rime to grab Blood of the North, two Blood Strikes would do more damage than an Obliterate.

I see why a DPS DK wants Death Runes... Death Runes = more FU abilities = more GCD freedom = more RP abilities. I see why a PvP DK wants Death Runes... flexibility, burst damage. I can see why a Blood tank might want Death Runes. I just don't see why a Frost tank would take that talent.

Unless you have BoSanc, you're dumping nearly all your RP into Rune Strike, and the rest is relatively easily dumped with a Frost Strike during your one free GCD (in a IT->PS->HS->HS->OB rotation). If Rime procs, then the RP can be dumped the next set of runes, since you'll be double-FU'ing (or DnDing) anyway.

 

Valhalla

After playing dps as blood for some time, I have changed guilds and am tanking now. I really enjoy the playstyle of blood over the other 2, but went frost because it was a better tanking tree. Now with the changes to the blood tanking talents, I was wondering how viable the spec I have been looking at will be. One benefit of this spec I see is that it is very healer friendly with all of the self healing in the tree. Between the 30 sec cd on imp rune tap and the 1 min cd (20 sec duration) on vamp blood i can see 1 of these being up 50 of 60 secs. Any feedback experienced tanks can give is more than appreciated. we currently have all content on farm, and are working on sarth +2, +3 drakes.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=121311050401

 

Karede

I've done 4H several times and never had a resist. I usually just DG as he's coming over to get attention on me and then I DC. Understandable that you don't want to risk a resist, but it seems like the chances of that are so small that the threat generation from something like SS glyph (single target), Pest glyph (AE) or the added mitigation in Bone Shield/Unbreakable Armor seems to be a better use of that glyph slot.

 

Prinsesa

I actually came up with a theoretical gearset that brings you to the armor cap with a Glyphed Unbreakable Armor + Inspiration, but it was something ridiculous like ilevel 213 epics in all slots, the 2% armor meta, armored necks, rings, cloaks, both trinkets, and of course UA and Inspiration, which won't always be on.

It MIGHT be possible to reach the armor cap with currently available gear and both those buffs going, but it's simply not something that's going to happen very often until the next tier or so.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler