DK Tanking Discussion - Page 45

Aquarian · 12/18/08, 1:57 PM

Sorry if this was mentioned, but I haven't seen it posted

Can our rune based strikes (BS,HS,OB,SS...) be parried and cause boss parry mechanics to cause extra attacks on us?

bigdawg78 · 12/18/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Afabar

+25 defense means you get 1% dodge + 1% parry + 1 % miss according to Defense - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
But this is also 123 defense rating that can be freed for better gems or enchant.

I too realized this, and for a while was excited about the new rune. I thought I could make up the loss of avoidance with stamina enchants and stamina gems. I'm not so sure now.

I wrote this down when thinking about it. The final conclusion is that I'll probably stick with swordshattering. Use the new gargoyle rune to help you get to 540 sooner (or if halls of stone hates you).

--------------------

The pure and simple comparison is to just put on the new rune, change none of your gear. The additional 25 defense skill will grant you 0.04% additional chance to be missed, to dodge, and to parry. That is 3% avoidance pure and simple. So the basic comparison is you lose 1% avoidance but gain 2% stamina (which is about 30 stamina). 30 stamina grants 300 health, but modified by kings and frost presence should be closer to 360 health. Is 1% avoidance worth 360 health? If you have say 70% avoidance total, then the loss of 1% avoidance effectively must increase your health by 1/30 or 3.33%. That is about 1000 health for most DK tanks. This is obviously not a worthwhile rune, and unless you change your gems and gear your better off sticking with swordshattering.

However...

What if you changed out gems and certain gear pieces for additional stamina? DK tanks have been forced to enchant most items with defense and gem for defense, many times where they'd rather just use stamina. Effective health is often better than avoidance, and most DK tanks that were tanks prior to wotlk will know that.

So how much extra stamina does 25 defense skill account for? If we assume the itemization for defense enchants are on par with gems. It takes 4.92 defense rating to equal 1 defense skill. That means the Gargoyle rune accounts for 123 defense rating. If we use +16 defense gems, it would take 7.6875 defense gems to give you this much defense. The stamina equivalent for the defense gems give +24 stamina. How much stamina does this equate to? 7.6875 multiplied by 24 sta gives a total of 184.5 stamina or 1845 health. Kings and frost presence will increase this value to 2214 health. Let's not forget the 2% stamina boost from the rune shall we? Recall it increases your orginal health by about 360 and will increase the 2214 by about 44. That's a net gain of 2618 life.

Recall that 1% avoidance is worth about 1k life. This latter approaches effectively reduces your avoidance by 4% but increases your health by 2618. It seems to me that the rune of swordshattering is superior to the rune of gargoyle.

The only argument left to support the Gargoyle rune over Swordshattering, is the extra health on Gargoyle will help with occasional magic damage. Obviously for pure physical fights swordshattering is better. For pure magical fights use spellshattering. For mixed fights, depending on how much magic is involved, the Gargoyle rune could be slightly superior or equal in many regards, but would require a total re-gearing of gems and enchants. That is not something you can do while raiding.

It seems to me if you are already at 540 defense, unless you have made horrible sacrifices to get there, you are better off sticking with swordshattering.

Darian_TruBlade · 12/18/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Namuh

So if i understand your point -

Then logically it would be prudent to DS Instead of OB when you are below 100% health ALWAYS
if you have a choice of OB or DS and both produce the same amount of threat when you are below 100% health...then what you are saying is that you should DS.

Oddly enough that is exactly what I do... OB at 100% and DS at less than 100%

It's not logical to DS when you are below 100% health. It's logical to DS when there will be no overheal. It's an important difference because if even a third of the DS heal is eaten by overhealing then Obliterate is a better option.

Additionally there are two other hurdles to using DS, timing and healers. Both damage and healing can be received at inconvenient times. You may be at full health with a second to go before OB/DS and then suddenly take 30% of your health in damage. You could be 30% down with a second to go and get some well times heals. It can be very difficult to predict how much healing you'll receive before the GCD is clear.

It's probably better to reserve DS for times where there'll be plenty of health to heal even after receiving heals from outside sources. Otherwise there's a high probability of overlap with your healers, and lost threat.

bigdawg78 · 12/18/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

It's probably better to reserve DS for times where there'll be plenty of health to heal even after receiving heals from outside sources. Otherwise there's a high probability of overlap with your healers, and lost threat.

And in those times, using a death strike (which could be dodge, parried, missed) seems unappealing to me. I'd rather use a healing potion, fel health stone, and pop some of my cooldowns to guarantee I survive.

We bring healers for a reason. If you absolutely must use death strike to survive content, your healers suck.

Suno · 12/18/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

For people that are tanking 3drake Sarth - how are you staying alive? I use BA, IBF, AMS, AMZ soley for his breaths. They are also spread out in an orderly fashion, so, AMZ first since it's the longest cooldown. BA -> AMS -> IBF if BA isn't refreshed. I found as the fight increasing, Sarth breaths more often. 2 separate occasions I had no cooldowns up, had to rely on a bubble from a priest, and then was instagibbed.

I don't use ANY of my cooldowns unless he's in ethereal mode (when an add is up "down below"), as that's when you face the 40k+ breaths. So if your DPS is mashing the adds down there, he should pull out of that mode quickly. I take the full damage on "normal" (25k+) breaths. There are 2 healers assigned to me. So far, no wipes have been caused due to my death. If I'm out of answers, I ask for a guardian spirit or the paladin whole-raid-shield-wall thing. Also, what cooldown are you using that's "BA"? It's early and very snowy up here. Bone shield is the cooldown I use where you're stating "BA".

Originally Posted by Zerath

(Bucknasty, no worries about egos. We're tanks. We're allowed to have ginormous egos. ^_^)

Truth.

Vinexia · 12/18/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

To other people: If you're breaking 35k buffed HP (no commanding) - could you please post your Armory? My guild is finding ways to scrutinize my tanking, they've already told me I should be gemming for +Sta soley with no +threat (+hit/+exp) since my HP pool sits at 34k buffed w/o commanding (it's 36/37k with). Honestly, I think I'm sitting at a very nice spot with my current gear but, in other's eyes, I guess I'm wrong.

36.5k is the right amount of hp for a tank exiting Naxx-25 to have. Sounds like your guild is trying to squeeze you out. The only way you can get more hp is to run a Veteran type build but that's another ball of yarn. One thing to present to your guild is how horrible missing or being dodged/parried is for a DK tank. It pushes back your rune GCDs, flubs up your rotations, stifles RP generation (w/o BoSanc), on top of dropping diseases (ebon plague anyone?), and overall causing horrible threat issues. It can lead to insta-gibs on big parry bosses, dropping of blade barrier, inability to pop a non-glyphed IBF and diarrhea.
Gemming straight stamina will lead to the above as the 25 man raiding gear has no where near enough hit/exp to take you up to acceptable levels. You have to be smart about your gear. If all else tell your guild that you are an avid theorycrafter and please trust what you are doing. If they don't trust their tank, well, that's more of a social issue beyond the scope of this forum.
For OS-25/3 there is a Veteran spec that is recommended to help mitigate the magical damage and increase your HP pool. I believe something along the lines of 24/11/36 IIRC. The build is pretty worthless for any boss other then that though.

Raedix · 12/18/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Namuh

So if i understand your point -

Then logically it would be prudent to DS Instead of OB when you are below 100% health ALWAYS
if you have a choice of OB or DS and both produce the same amount of threat when you are below 100% health...then what you are saying is that you should DS.

Oddly enough that is exactly what I do... OB at 100% and DS at less than 100%

Remember, if there are any other mobs which have you on your aggro table, your healing threat is spread out to them. Also remember, that using DS nerfs your DPS significantly. Unless you've lost a healer during the fight, you've brought the "right number" of healers, and thus healing you should never be a real problem... while there's (almost) never a problem with more DPS. Chances are, your DS is simply going to cause more overhealing, while the slight increase in DPS will benefit your raid in some way, albeit slightly.

That said, of course it's situational. When we lost a healer and the offtank on 10man Kel'thuzad and I needed to tank KT and his adds myself for the last 40%, you're damn right I was spamming Death Strike... anything to help the remaining healers as I get mauled. But, in general, more DPS is probably better... tanking is about adjusting properly to unexpected things.

Namuh · 12/18/08, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

It's not logical to DS when you are below 100% health. It's logical to DS when there will be no overheal. It's an important difference because if even a third of the DS heal is eaten by overhealing then Obliterate is a better option.

Additionally there are two other hurdles to using DS, timing and healers. Both damage and healing can be received at inconvenient times. You may be at full health with a second to go before OB/DS and then suddenly take 30% of your health in damage. You could be 30% down with a second to go and get some well times heals. It can be very difficult to predict how much healing you'll receive before the GCD is clear.

It's probably better to reserve DS for times where there'll be plenty of health to heal even after receiving heals from outside sources. Otherwise there's a high probability of overlap with your healers, and lost threat.

I agree completely on the Overheal statement -

My statement was more of a general assumption that you would use DS when you will benefit from it's maximum healing.

I use it as a mild buffer - always have when healing become questionable, lag, deaths or emergincies in the rest of the raid where my healer needs to send a heal to one of the other healers to prevent their death...there are Lots of circumstances where it can be used.

All that being said - YES I am glyphed and it IS OP and I hope that after the patch It will be unnecessary to use it as my mitigation and gearing will be clean enough that a buffer isnt going to be necessary - either the healing will be there or it wont.

When im in my 25 man group I have nothing to worry about.
My 10 man group - some of their gearing is sub par and that is simply a reality I have to deal with as do most of you im sure...so an extra renew tick or a mini flash-heal can never hurt when it comes down to it as long as you are benefiting from it

escariot · 12/18/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Harion

May I have a look at your Armory?

The World of Warcraft Armory

I should have linked that in the thread, my apologies. Also, my talent spec is about 3 pts different (not too different, I was trying something this morning and will probably go back to the one I listed or follow suggestions I get on this board to vary it up a bit).

escariot · 12/18/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by escariot

Hey guys, I had a couple quick questions.

First, I apologize if this is already known or discussed elsewhere (haven't seen anything about it though), but there seems to be an odd bug. I got [Rune of Repulsion] tonight and I noticed something weird: if I equip it then use it, my parry actually drops after the use effect expires (~23% before Use, down to ~22% after the effect expires). My first guess is that the amount of parry chance that my parry rating gives diminishes due to the increased rating from the Use on the trinket, and somehow gets "stuck" after the effect expires. It goes back to normal if i unequip and re-equip the trinket, but obviously mid-combat this isn't an option and really makes the trinket seem near worthless. It could be, however, that the stats displayed on the character screen do not accurately reflect the true numbers, but I waited nearly 10 min to see if it would "update" itself and no luck.

This seems similar to the way that re-gemming does not provide the set bonus on the character screen until I unequip and re-equip the piece?

On that note, my other two trinkets are [Repelling Charge] and [Figurine - Monarch Crab]. I'm sitting at nearly 40k buffed HP so I was thinking that the [Rune of Repulsion] would be better than [Figurine - Monarch Crab] for extra mitigation and threat, though also considering dropping a lot of stam for def gems and replacing the repelling charge because I like the Use effect of the monarch crab... Any thoughts?

My final question is in regards to threat: while I very rarely have serious threat issues (only EoE which is understandable), my threat is significantly lower than the other tank classes and it comes close at times. My current spec is:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

A few pts here might seem odd, I played a bit with a template to pick up some of the ones I personally like (such as Morbidity). I'm wondering if there are some other talents that are much better for threat, and perhaps that's where my problem lies. I considered dropping Icy Talons and using those 6 pts for various dmg boosts such as dark conviction, 2hd weapon spec, or other dmg talents in frost. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Upon further testing, it appears that it's a bug with the item [Rune of Repulsion] whereupon you lose all of the parry rating (including the 95 that's intended to be constant) every time you use it and the effect expires. I've reported it to a GM so hopefully it will be fixed.

Any opinions regarding the item if it worked properly vs the other 2 trinkets I listed? And any opinions regarding threat and/or my spec?

I linked it in an above post but my armory is:

The World of Warcraft Armory

A few points different than the one I described since I was trying something this morning, but nearly identical (without the couple pts in morbidity, mainly).

Thanks in advance for any input.

jacclark · 12/18/08, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Zerath

Jackclark - There's a difference between Theorycrafting and testing in-game for proper usage. I find that using DnD in my rotation (for several rotations) gives me the edge I need in single target dps before I can go in to non-DnD usage. Now, at the same time - I've used DnD through a whole boss fight because my TPS was currently higher.
(Bucknasty, no worries about egos. We're tanks. We're allowed to have ginormous egos. ^_^)

I agree. Lots of theorycrafting going on - and I have the experience and gear to match both expansions LK and BC as main tank (go read my posts on druids pre 2.0.1 patches if you want evidence). And I'll state again, I cannot get the threat / tps that you guys are generating using DnD. My *single target* rotation to build a sizeable threat lead continues to be unchanged. I think this rotation effectively utilizes my initial runes to generate a sizeable threat lead.

FYI: I do use UB but only later. I dont' use DnD. I'm too busy surviving and I never found it to generate the the threat you claim. Perhaps TPS but real threat generated - is this an instrument error? Ask your hunters to MD to you too. If you're going to critcize self-healing when you have healers, then be fair and mention hunters in the same breath.

(Repeat: Single target --- build ie. *start* a threat lead. Come on guys, you're so quick to post the latest and greatest that you're not organizing the information clearly. Build threat when? how? why? Single target vs multi-target? Begining? Middle? Re-gaining threat? Are your rotations for every circumstance? When should you vary them? These are the details that we need to work on.)

Raedix: For the following post regarding Death Strike, you misread - so please re-read. (Your wall of text is nearly indecipherable.) Death strike is for survivability not threat. (SS is what I use initially and I use it or OB with DC to pull ahead.) Perhaps my gear is advanced enough that I don't take as much damage as some of you and thus DS is an important part of my survivability. How about posting your DK armory so we take a closer look at what you're doing? I tried really hard to read your wall of text for something constructive, but I failed. My eyes aren't so good after years of reading small text in big texts.

For 25 mans, I don't use DS much -- mainly SS and OB (for threat). In 10 mans, I we run with a 2 healer, 1 ret pally combination (off-healer as needed). This allows us to stack dps - 2 hunters, 1 mage, 1 warlock, 1 fury warrior and a Druid OT. Self-healing helps.

If you're worried about threat, watch your parry guys. Better to miss than be parried. You loose threat and you take damage.

(Big egos are good, the harder we push the boundaries of DK tanking, the quicker and better we'll figure out the limits and develop into better tanks.)

PS: Escariot, you're currently the definition of a stacked tank. Nice job. I'd like to try your talent build and compare.

Arhk · 12/18/08, 8:54 PM

I'm not sure if this build has been discussed previously, but this is something that I saw posted on TankSpot and I have tweaked a couple of times after testing in 5-mans and 10-mans.

It's essentially a Frost build foregoing some of the end Frost talents in order to pick up Veteran in the Blood tree.

The build is as follows: 23/41/7 (The World of Warcraft Armory)

Any thoughts on weaknesses with this build? I've been slowly replacing the +stam gems with +expertise/stam gems to help with threat (especially since I'm sitting at literally 14 HP from being at 29k in frost presence unbuffed), but I can't help but feel like something is seriously lacking with this build, but I'm not quite sure what it is. My mitigation and overall tanking feels fine, but my threat feels extremely lackluster. Especially on fights like Sapph where I have well-geared DPS riding my butt on threat the entire fight.

My general rotation is a simple IT > PS > Obl > BS > BS > Obl rinse repeat, while including RS and FS when possible. Perhaps my rotation needs tweaking?

Also to note, this is entirely talking about single target boss fights. AoE has been a joke with Howling Blast.

Skiftor · 12/18/08, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Arhk

I'm not sure if this build has been discussed previously, but this is something that I saw posted on TankSpot and I have tweaked a couple of times after testing in 5-mans and 10-mans.

It's essentially a Frost build foregoing some of the end Frost talents in order to pick up Veteran in the Blood tree.

The build is as follows: 23/41/7 (The World of Warcraft Armory)

Any thoughts on weaknesses with this build? I've been slowly replacing the +stam gems with +expertise/stam gems to help with threat (especially since I'm sitting at literally 14 HP from being at 29k in frost presence unbuffed), but I can't help but feel like something is seriously lacking with this build, but I'm not quite sure what it is. My mitigation and overall tanking feels fine, but my threat feels extremely lackluster. Especially on fights like Sapph where I have well-geared DPS riding my butt on threat the entire fight.

My general rotation is a simple IT > PS > Obl > BS > BS > Obl rinse repeat, while including RS and FS when possible. Perhaps my rotation needs tweaking?

Also to note, this is entirely talking about single target boss fights. AoE has been a joke with Howling Blast.

If you want to increase your threat you should try dumping the points in rune tap into getting subversion (9% crit to oblit) and maxing out 2H specialization. Take the points out of frost aura and one point out of killing machine and put them into rime (cannot pass on 15% crit to IT/OB and a chance for free HB).

All of these things would up your threat without sacrificing your ability to stay alive. You would pick up about 24% crit for oblit with these changes.

Your rotation looks to be in line with your build (ie: you don't have BotN which makes you have to bs a lot).

As goes weakness to the build -

I believe not picking up guile of gorefiend is a bad idea in any frost type build. No real solution to that in your build though.

BotN will buff your BS and allow you to Oblit more often.

Tundra stalker is 10% more damage that all frost and unholy tanks have over you.

If this build is for single target boss fights deathchill isn't that useful (still a great 1 point talent though).

The added crit/ap/sta from going deeper into blood than normal may seem like a good idea, but you are destroying the frost portion of your build by doing so.

◊ Bryne · 12/19/08, 12:25 AM

Well, we've come a long way from the "defense cap should be something you strive to reach" feedback we were getting from Blizzard just a couple weeks ago. MMO-Champion has two new craftable 2H weapons specifically for DK tanks:

Titansteel Deflector
Titansteel Defender

This, combined with the new runeforge and sigil, really reduces the barrier to entry for DK tanks by a (needed) huge amount. It might actually be easier for DK blacksmiths to cap defense before heroics/raids than warriors or paladins now.

Darmon · 12/19/08, 2:58 AM

Those weapons are BoP as seen in picture, so BS only. Waiting for new PTR update to download so i can check them in game.

Lanlaorn · 12/19/08, 3:08 AM

Ugh, why is the +defense one an axe and the +parry one a sword?

Even at the defense cap the +defense one is more avoidance than the +parry one, parry has that crappy DR formula and defense naturally spreads the avoidance out to lessen DR effects as well.

I'll probably just make the sword anyway just for RP purposes, so tired of axes and maces!

norg · 12/19/08, 6:14 AM

While it’s nice to have these options now that might allow for, say, gemming for stats other than +def, or dropping that [Repelling Charge] / [Seal of the Pantheon] for another trinket, it’d be nice if they were itemized a bit better. A smattering of hit/expertise to go along with the pure mitigation stats wouldn’t go amiss. As they are I wonder if the loss of threat will be worth it compared to some of the DPS drops that are well itemized for us, [Inevitable Defeat] being the prime example.

Prinsesa · 12/19/08, 6:33 AM

I actually find those weapons to be a bit disturbing:

They're BOP, which means the barrier of entry has been lowered for Blacksmiths, but no one else.

They're the only two-handed tanking weapons in the game, which puts them in a position like TBC Feral tank weapons. An actual DPS two-hander might seem appealing given that DKs are worried about threat, but if Blizzard addresses threat the way Paladins and Warriors can generally always use a Red Sword of Courage without worrying about threat, then DKs are stuck with an ilevel 200 weapon for the rest of the expansion.

The Rune Strike threat increase and Howling Blast cooldown removal already indicates that they're aware of the threat problem, which presents an even bigger threat (pun intended) of DKs not needing a DPS weapon and getting stuck with these craftables forever.

Even if they introduced some kind of upgrade, then you're still looking at one upgrade per raid tier (if that). What's more, it's one upgrade per raid tier that doesn't require raiding, since they wouldn't put the upgrade as a loot-table-choking boss drop.

And then we go back to the issue of one upgrade per tier that requires blacksmithing.

At the very least, they should've made them BOE, in-line with everything else that's craftable in WOTLK.

Zerilan · 12/19/08, 6:57 AM

Yeah, this being BoP for blacksmith REALLY bothers me.

Asherett · 12/19/08, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

Ugh, why is the +defense one an axe and the +parry one a sword?

Even at the defense cap the +defense one is more avoidance than the +parry one, parry has that crappy DR formula and defense naturally spreads the avoidance out to lessen DR effects as well.

I'll probably just make the sword anyway just for RP purposes, so tired of axes and maces!

Agreed, this is very strange. The axe gives 90 defense rating = 18.3 defense skill = +0.732% to miss, parry and dodge. So 2.196% avoidance in total. The sword gives 90 parry rating = +1.83% parry. Can't really see how the increased DPS/TPS from parries should be worth that.

rimmer · 12/19/08, 7:20 AM

It's a bit annoying that the only source of tanking 2-H is a BoP craftable, but the dps weapons where alternatives are readily available from instances are BoE. Also the defender has the looks of an axe, but the tooltip says sword. What's that about?

Merogondinne · 12/19/08, 9:26 AM

Don't you think Blizzard is doing too much adding these weapons with new sigils and new weapon glyph ?

I mean it was hard to get your def cap before because of no 2hand with +def and the fact that we couldn't use shield/ranged weapon with def stat. But with theses news weapons any DK with blacksmith will be nearly def capped only with blue drop from quest.
It's not a BAD thing, more choices, beter it is, but these weapons are also lacking threat stats like hit/exp and are both 180 dps.

So maybe these weapons will be a good choice for a beginning DK but if you can go throug nax (and the most part of us will) you'll probably find weapon that are equivalent or better than the new ones.
i.e : for me as a dwarf Dk i see Inevitable Defeat to be the best agro/avoid weapon and with 100 str, 80 agi, 78 exp it is nearly as good than Titansteel defender for avoid.

If these are realy BoP i think a lot of DK will prefer the weapon glyph and/or the sigils for a better threat weapon and/or better weapon enchant since we have more problem in single target threat generation than in avoidance after being def capped.

PS : Sorry for the crap english i'm obviously not used to ^^'.

Kyrié · 12/19/08, 9:28 AM

Does anyone have a wws with a dk and druid tanking? I ask because comparing myself with the pally and warrior in our naxx 25 mans, while my %missed by hits is about 10% or so above them my mitigation is 20% below the obvious being we have no shield. So I wanted to see how that looked compared to a druid.

Coriolanus · 12/19/08, 9:43 AM

I agree that the weapons are not bad starter ones, and obviously DKs are tanking fine with the weapons they have once they can hit def cap. Thus, once you start getting naxx gear you shouldn't be shackled to an ilv200ish weapon when everyone else is outgearing you. However, I hope hope hope that these don't stay BoP. It makes absolutely no sense. Blacksmiths can't make anything else that is BoP, and part of their new crafting direction is to try and spread the wealth a bit.

I think the weapons are fine (even if the sword is a bit under powered) a bridge weapons for raiding, but hopefully it's just a PTR thing and they'll be BoE on live.

raei · 12/19/08, 9:46 AM

Not sure if this has been mentioned here before, but did some short testing just then (mostly by accident) and it seems as though if you have two DKs, one with Crypt Fever and one with Ebon Plague, the disease modifier actually stacks?

Full unholy's frost fever was ticking for 365, when I added my frost fever (and thus crypt) it began ticking for 474. DnD was up to ~700-1k ticks in instances too.

Can anyone who's actually better at testing confirm / deny this?

Edit: Just realised this doesn't sound very tankish - I was looking at it from the standpoint of a VotW build with another unholy dk present in raids.