Oculus

Thanks for the advice about dealing with adds without Morbidity. I will put them to the test next 3dSarth night !

Several pages back people began trying to put together a decent Blood tanking build for the next patch. I'm intrigued by the idea of having +50% healing every 30 seconds, and I'd like to try it out for a few raids. Something interesting I see in these builds however, is almost all the ones posted have Rune Tap. For the same reason we all discussed how Death Strike isn't good for threat, I would caution the same things about dumping 4 points into Rune Tap. Yes, it is amazing for healing and the like, but it should never be relied on for TPS. I feel the points are much better spent elsewhere.

A more proper build in my eyes would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Taking Sudden Doom is debatable by some, but I would argue that yes.. you will have more RP than you know what to do with. However, Sudden Doom is not just a free DC - its also a guaranteed crit. That's a pretty healthy spike in TPS when you typically will only be running with about 25%-30% crit in Tank gear.


If you have the means, why not get an additional weapon to put Spellshattering on? I'm considering crafting the Axe for specific fights with caster bosses/ heavy magic damage. If you are tanking 3dSarth, you probably have enough threat leeway to even switch to your Spellshatter weapon when he breathes.

 

Namuh

Still bugged as of today - i like to farm the deathknights in Icecrown that congregate in big pacs (lotsa good drops and they have about a min and a half respawn rate)

But yes the framerate issue increases as you increase the # of mobs being affected by it.

I have NO problems when i am speced out of Morbidity - i am currently keeping Morbidity and will simply main tank single target bosses until patch as DnD on a 15 sec cooldown is amazing.

Icecicle - Human
Frost DeathKnight Tank

 

Namuh

Taking Sudden Doom is debatable by some, but I would argue that yes.. you will have more RP than you know what to do with. However, Sudden Doom is not just a free DC - its also a guaranteed crit. That's a pretty healthy spike in TPS when you typically will only be running with about 25%-30% crit in Tank gear.

as far as your spec goes I like it very much.

that being said I would remove 1 point from Sudden Doom and put that Into Lichborne.

4% chance to proc sudden doom vs another oh shit button that also has a pvp trinket effect.

Lichborne is fantastic specially on avoidance fights and makes a great second anti fear if you are human or first and only built in antifear.

Icecicle - Human
Frost DeathKnight Tank

 

• Furiosa

Sigh at the morbidity. It's a huge handicap sometimes and it pisses me off. When doing 2 drake sarth I was on the whelps, and when I got the huge 0.2 FPS lag a void zone spawned under me ;__;.

As for spellshattering, I would test it myself but quite often its easier to tap the knowledge of those who have tested it before :P. I'll mess with it next reset, see how things go. (QQ's at how 25 and 10 man raids are all cleared 3 days into the week)

 

Zerath

Well, I don't have hard math so I don't want to post it as a "fact" or anything of that sorts. Depending how you do 3dSarth - once he pops ethereal, you're starting to take ~50k+ fire breaths. I assume how Spellshattering works is that it negates after your BS/IBF/AMZ/AMS, so, avereage 30k breath -> 1.2k dmg. Which is fantastic. But, do to the loss of 4% avoidance we're taking in more melee, BS has a lower uptime caushing more over-all damage in from breaths, also.

Maybe RNG just hates me? That's always possible. =p

 

Oculus

Well done, that rounds off the spec very nicely. It will definitely be something fun to play around with and see how it matches up with the other specs.


I don't see why you can't just switch weapons mid-breath cast and then switch back to your +parry% weapon afterward. Unless I'm missing something crucial about enchant mechanics the only downside would be a GCD delay on abilities - not a big deal at all for Sarth since you have him to yourself for so long to build threat.

 

Artemis

For the record, everything I had calculated (or whatever you'd call what I did) was based on current. I was rather hoping the build might transfer smoothly into the new patch as well, though. It should probably also be noted that I forgot to factor in the weapon when determining stats, which would add a good bit of STR/STM and maybe even some other stats.

That does seem like a pretty solid sheet; to the point where I'm rather disappointed that I overlooked the obvious benefits of including Heart Strike in the build to allow for Sudden Doom (which, combined with a mouseover macro, could very well generate an abundant amount of additional threat on multiple targets at no cost whatsoever). When I was creating my spec, I tried to focus around talents that, as I said in the post, would reimburse my HP more than it would completely mitigate damage.

I included Rune Tap because it seemed to follow my theme for the build quite nicely. Many times I've heard healers complaining that the only thing harder to heal than a Druid (with their massive levels of HP) is a DK because of their propensity for taking large amounts of damage, due to the inability to properly mitigate it currently. Granted, a lot of that can be attributed to a lack of gear on the part of the tank, most likely, for not having enough of the DK-tanking stats to properly mitigate damage, but I thought that having a free self-heal button and centering on the use of Death Strike during the rotation would greatly help lessen the burden on healers.

Perhaps I'm looking too much at the bright side of "what could have been", but I included a lot of talents that help to regen HP.

Rune Tap: 20%/30% HP every 30 seconds (30% during the 20-second window every minute where Vampiric Blood will be up)
Blood Aura: DMG * .02 converted to health; anyone doing 2K DPS would be getting a theoretical 40 health per second
Death Strike: Currently this ability (when glyphed) has a high yield on diseased targets. After the patch, this might become less the case, and I suppose that's one point where my build might take a huge hit in addition to its already apparent flaws.
Mark of Blood: This ability could be useful on bosses who swing frequently to mitigate some of the overall damage being done, or on those who have painful AoEs, since each affected player would be healed by each hit incurred.

Between those four abilities, I'd imagine a large amount of HP being refunded over the course of multiple fights or particularly long fights.

Now, here's one of the main problems I'm seeing as I type this post. Is one of the big problems about my build the fact that I'm gimping personal DPS for healing that would be better provided by the healers in the group/raid (if this build were to ever hit the raiding scene on 10-mans), or are the problems with my build so phenomenally outstanding that mentioning DPS-gimping seems trifle in comparison? Is it really more worthwhile to take the extra DPS from Heart Strike (especially once it becomes a two-target strike) and, consequently, free-crit Death Coils than to pad the tanking seat with some self-heals?

I honestly don't know that much about raiding mechanics, so if anyone wants to contribute a "This Is How It Is" to dismiss or counter my points, I would be much appreciative.

 

zang1983

In regards to Blood tank spec, I've been thinking basically the exact same spec as Oculus posted, except I removed Sudden Doom alltogether, and took Morbidity, Lichborne and Mark of Blood.

 

Funky Junky

Hey guys it has been a while since i dropped in and i just want to get a quick eval on my gear and see if anyone has any opinions on things I have goin on

I am not entirely sure from a tanking standpoint where I should have my melee stats but I never seem to notice misses at all, and I do not know if there is any way i can get big boosts to my threat gen

I usually tank in Frost but in a previous Naxx 25 we had a Prot pally who while being decently geared above my level, seemed to have pretty awesome threat gen. Idk if this is their strength but it left me kind of in limbo seeing as I may have been playing poorly at the time, tired and what not, but it seemed like his threat was marginally above mine in both AoE and single target areas

I don't know if this is how the classes are designed to be balanced or if maybe I have been doing something wrong on some minor level

I do not really wanna go into details of my rotations and what not, I am mainly looking for a gear evaluation and not a play style check

Thanks for any opinions or pointers people have to offer and I appreciate civil debates in response to my topics

 

Zerath

First thing first, I don't know how you live with that low of Hit. I'm pushing ~220 and want to cut myself with my miss rate. And that's roughly 7% hit.

Your second trinket...why? There's so much better than that. Repelling Charm. The +111stam one. Patheon. Those are 3 main trinkets right there that would benefit you, the first and third would let you upgrade your wrist and gloves in order to have more avoidance and stamina.

Stamina is lacking on your end. My guild is giving me a hard time for hitting 36k buffed, you're most liking hitting 30-32k buffed which is rather low.

We receive "more" out of Dodge over Parry. Just an FYI since you seem to be gemming for Parry.

Other than that, I like it. Def cap w/o trinkets but avoidance/stam is hurting because of it.

Looking at your spec - you should drop Ravenous Dead and Virulence for Necrosis which would up threat (and damage). While on the Frost side you should take Black Ice over Icy Reach. It's a slight up in TPS. Very slight.

 

Funky Junky

Yea actually trust me, over 20 runs of normal HoL now with no Pantheon, twice downing thaddius with no repelling charm. I hate being locked into what I am right now, those gloves are so horrible imo. Usually in my guild we had been getting shafted on healers for our 10 mans but we finally got things organized and thaddius will be weekly and my MT basically plans to pass it to me so its nice to know I will have it, other than that I haven't noticed much trinket wise, I run a pretty good amount of heroics and never see any trinkets that strike my fancy.

Like I said about the melee stats I wasn't quite sure what direction I should be going in, and I kind of assumed that dodge overall is good but I havent discussed it with many people and since I dont know entirely too much about DR on dodge and parry I thought it was a good idea to stack both to a pretty good amount.

So what I am gathering here is I should go for some hit and some stam? I have been kinda comparing my health to other tanks I've seen, and realized soon Stam is gonna have to be higher on my priority list than where I have it.

I'll have to do some roaming of other people's gear and what not but at least I have a good direction to head to.

As for the whole unholy thing It isn't something I usually stick with, by next 25 man I will probably be back to my frost spec, especially if the patch hits Tuesday

Thanks for the insight


Edit-

I also just noticed looking at your spec it seems like you fall a little behind me in avoidance, Is this simply because parry is that ineffective for us that you neglect it to 17% or is it something you have found you simply have to do because you require so much health. I havent stepped into 25 man malygos nor gotten extremely far in naxx 25 but I haven't had any situations arise where a healer could not handle me, I often find healers confident in how little healing I require to give the ok to have no extra attention on me. The hp WAS an issue with me trying to be involved in patchwerk but i simply took a dps role through that fight (painfully) this is where I start to wonder if really the extra health is all that necessary when really my avoidance and mitigation talents seem to give so much breathing room for healers.


As for the hit I really do not know how to gauge if it is a problem. You say you get misses but I don't understand how.

In a fight my pestilences always spread, diseases always hit first time except for the occasional parry, which I definatly do not mind for the exchange of a rune strike. Blood boil always hits and maintains aggro. I never notice the word Miss ever appear on my screen

So do you actually miss or is it a damage difference type of thing.

Sorry if I am wording these vaguely but it is pretty late and I can't think of the best ways to voice what I'm trying to figure out

 

Artemis

Unless I'm completely mistaken on the mechanics, Rune Strike becomes available after you parry an attack, not after you have an attack parried. It's kind of the opposite of Overpower. In addition, getting parried is never a good thing. Even if it did lead to a Rune Strike, the fact that you're getting parried also means you're taking more damage and losing out on more threat, since the two are invariably linked for DK tanks.

Mind you, I'm not exactly an authority on the subject. That's just what I've gathered thus far, and I figured I'd make a short answer that someone else will likely branch off of before the day's over.

[Edit:] In terms of the miss-factor, it may be worth noting that Zerath is (if current spec defines) dual wield tanking without spec'ing into Nerves of Cold Steel. That's essentially a triple threat of: higher chance to miss; more opportunities to miss; more likelihood of being parried. If that is Zerath's tanking spec and gear-set, missing and being parried would be more notable. At least, I think... Again, not at all the expert on this stuff.

 

Siawn

Will someone please explain to me why every theoretical Blood spec that people are considering for the next patch includes Spell Deflection? There are only a handful of fights in the entire expansion thus far that it is even marginally useful, and only one, in my opinion, that it is even remotely worth the three talent points. It only mitigates direct damage, so Sartharion's breath and Malygos' breath are both out. Other than that, the only thing I see it being useful for it KT's frostbolts, and I really don't think that fight is enough justification for three points that could be better spent elsewhere.

This is what I'm considering post-patch. It's virtually identical to the build mentioned above, but drops Spell deflection for Morbidity which, bugged or not, I feel is essential for any kind of ae threat, and drops Sudden Doom for Lichborne and Rune Tap. I love Sudden Doom, and believe me I tried to find a way to keep it, but dropping one point for Lichborne is a no-brainer.

The four points for Rune Tap, I will admit are debatable. In a perfect setting, you would never need it, because it is the healer's job to keep you topped at all time. However, I feel it is one more cd for when things go wrong, and tanks can never have too many of those. I tested it on PTR, and in my current gear unbuffed, it was healing for aproximately 12k with Vampiric Blood up. That number will go up significantly with raid buffs. That is sizable enough to give heals time to land, and prevent a RNG-induced death where an unlucky string of boss abilities would otherwise mean death, if used judiciously. Add to this that is can be used every 30 seconds, and it becomes a powerful tool for managing the damage that I feel Blood will be taking over, say, Unholy since Blood gains more hp to absorb hits through Vampiric Blood, but does not mitigate like Unholy does with Bone Shield.

All that being said, it is impossible to say how useful it is until I've had a chance to actually raid with it. If it's something that sits on my bar unused the majority of the night, I'll cheerfully pick up 4/5 Sudden Doom.

 

Illundai

Spell Deflection works on both Sartharion and Malygos.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Siawn

Interesting. With the wording I assumed otherwise. Three more points I have to carve out now.

 

Asari

So I was looking at unholy and frost specs to see if I wanted to switch to frost with the new HB change...

One thing I noticed is that with unbreakable armor, I have 70% mitigation for 20 seconds... vs. a 20% damage reduction on bone shield for however long the RNG decides it'll stay up.

As frost I get 61% avoidance against 58% with unholy (assuming I swap out all my +def gems for 24 and 41 stam gems)

As frost I also get the base 18 second IBF vs the 12 second unholy version.

So as frost I get 41 seconds of reduced mitigation every minute (with 4pT7) and as unholy, assuming a 30 second uptime on bone shield, I get 45 seconds.

But does the move from 65% -> 70% physical mitigation provide more damage reduction than the 20% from boneshield? Eventually UA will result in my armor capping out at 75% in future raids.

 

◊ Bryne

Isn't Spell Deflection still bugged in combination with Anti-Magic Shell? Was this ever confirmed by people tanking those fights?

 

Sonrisa

It is indeed. Just last week I had to spec out of it on 3 add Sartharion cause I would only absorb a very small percentage of the breath instead of absorving the whole thing whenever I used fully talented AMS. I wasn't able to 100% absorb a single breath during 15+ attemts either, which makes spell deflection pretty worthless until it gets fixed.

When I first noticed it, I googled about it and found this post on the official forums:
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Really dangerous bug with Spell Deflect

The same guy also posted about it on the upcoming changes thread here:
Upcoming Death Knight changes

 

ptRkgo

Edit sorry, my query was answered whilst I was typing this post.

 

Zerath

I'm right around where you are. Those two weapons are just for leveling skill purposes. Didn't change back to my Titansteel. My normal avoidance, unbuffed is ~55% just like you.

A little insight behind why I'm leveling sword/mace (and soon to be axe when I get one). There was a point brought up about Frost spec will use Rune Strike and FS as our MH attack which can't be parried. Now, granted, we'll still have to put up with OH parries but I'll be testing it in Naxx 10man to see what TPS and insta-gibbing I can get.

 

• Furiosa

Yeah, that 4% avoidance hurts :/. I think I'll put spellshattering on another weapon and do a quick swap to it like people are saying, probably much easier and threat really isn't a problem at all.

Zerath, I can see how rune strike would make dual wielding a good option, hmm, grab a slow MH to minimize white hits, hmmm. I'm going to have to try that out myself .

 

Vinexia

One thing I believe we glazed over is for unholy tanks Necrosis is going to be hit by the nerf bat just a minuscule tiny bit. 150% weapon damage works out as follows for Rune Strikes.

Weapon: 203.6 dps
Speed: 3.6

203.6 * 3.6 = 732.96

Assume 4000 Raid buffed AP (yes this can go up and down but this is a baseline):

Now Rune Strike Hit: (732.96*2) + (200*4000*10/10000) = 2265.92

After 3.8 Rune Strike Hit: 732.96*1.5 + (200*4000*10/10000) = 1899.44

Necrosis Follow Up Hit: Modified by Ebon Plague
(Rounded)
Before: 2266/10 * 1.13 = 256
After: 1899/10 * 1.13 = 215

Difference:
41 damage per Rune Strike Necrosis proc OR 16.2% for attacks that are generated by Rune Strikes over white hits.

White Hit to Rune Strike Mix:
For Fun WWS of Insomnia @ Patchwerk Death shot.

The following numbers are relevant to this WWS only:
Here I was OT'ing with an Unholy spec and about 65% pure avoidance.
My rune strike to white hit ratio was 38 to 46 or about 45%. As avoidance increases with gear this mix would change.
Necrosis in this parse also accounted for 5% of my damage.

28088 * 45% = 12640 Damage from Necrosis as part of Rune Strikes.
12640 * 16.2% = 2022 Damage OR 8.25 Dps for this fight that will be lost as a side effect of the Rune Strike adjustment.

Conclusion and TLDR:
This equates to a .36% Damage Nerf on a fight where we constantly are using Rune Strikes.
We must fight this great injustice!!!

 

Funky Junky

Alright so I am getting some sold hits here on explanations. It really is my bad that I assumed Rune strike was Overpower, although that just simply means I am confusing my getting parried with me parrying the boss. Really an amateur mistake that I did not follow up on being clear on that but it has not been anything that ruins me, in that case I can't say how much I get parried myself.

So in the long run should I be looking to drop some of these parry gems and rework with hit and stam? Like I said where I am in raiding which is not particularly far, my damage intake seems to be very minimal, and how far off am I in thinking that its better to try and evenly split between parry and dodge because of diminishing returns. I tried reading a couple DR threads but a lot of them just pull in random numbers and when it comes to me looking at other peoples formulas I just kind of find myself in Limbo. I myself also do not have enough grasp of how to look at formulas and what not, hopefully it will be something I can focus on more once I start GSP math classes but for now I have to go off of what feels right, and aside from getting smoked by a pally tank one time, I seem to be doing very well granted I know there is a lot of better gear choices I could work out

 

Zerath

Some thing that you need to remember is the +stam on your weapon, if you change mid-breath to a different weapon, make sure you aren't nerfing your HP pool or even your avoidance since Sarth is notorious for cleaving immediately after breath.

 

• Furiosa

Yeah, course not, although im going to nerf my health pool slightly because i use inevitable defeat, but ill probably craft me a titansteel destroyer for that purpose. 15 stam shouldnt be the difference between living and dying. I have 30.4k unbuffed anyways.