Feorthas

It may be possible but just think about the ludicrous amount of expertise needed to pass the 15-16% parry that bosses are theorized to have these days; you'd probably have to gear expressly for expertise, at the expense of any/all tanking stats and, even then, still come up short.

Even covering all but 7% of the parry, there is a 25.2% likelihood that one in four swings will be parried and a 52% likelihood that 1 in 10 will be parried. A 2H wielding DK will reach this 52% point in 30-40 seconds whereas a DW DK, assuming a best case of slow/slow, will reach 10 attacks in about 10-15 seconds or about 65% sooner (avg). Admittedly, we're looking at autoattacks only, so let's expand upon this:

Caveats: I 'know' Frost so I'm going to assume a Frost tanking rotation for the 2H with 18 second diseases (and assume no lag and perfect execution).

2H rotation (20s): IT PS BS BS OB FS -> OB OB OB FS (9 parriable)
DW Rotation (10s): PS IT BS BS HB DC (3 parriable)

Ok, that gap is actually rather surprising; let's continue though--over 20 seconds, we see the following:

2H: 6w + 9y = 15 (~66%)
DW: 16w + 6y = 22 (~80%)

So, simply because it relies more heavily on non-strike rune usage, DW is better off than we thought (which surprises me as well); however, this goes pretty far out the window if BCB procs can be parried so... *shrug*

I thought it would be relatively easy to close the door on DW tanking but, aside from probably having a lower threat output, they only have a 14% higher expected parried chance at 20 seconds, so they may not be absolutely horrible; very possibly sub-optimal but not always horrible. Additionally, over a long fight, the 2H user will catch up to the DW DK because he simply has more parriable yellows; I'd argue that DW isn't an absolutely horrible setup except in those worst case scenarios where the boss decides to go on a parry spree.

 

Crax

In that vein, here are some basic numbers:

• Boss Dodge - 6.5% estimated
• Boss Parry - 15% estimated
• 1 expertise = 0.25% less dodge/parry
• 32.79 expertise rating = 1% less dodge/parry @ lvl 80
• Source: wowwiki

So, with zero expertise from talents/racials, it would take 492 expertise rating to cap. With 5 expertise from talents (Frost or Uholy), it will take 451 expertise rating to cap. With 11 expertise from talents (Blood), it will take 402 expertise rating.

Now, every tank spec should have at least 5 from talents. If we take the most generous "free" expertise example (dwarf/orc Blood spec), you'd have 16 expertise and still need 361 expertise rating.

With a Dwarf, using Inevitable Defeat, the full Tier 7 Heroic set, and "best in slot" after that, you end up being 189 expertise rating short, before enchants/gems. Filling all available gem slots in that set with +20 expertise gems, you'd get 180 and be just 9 rating short, but that's giving up a *lot* of mitigation/avoidance/stamina and speccing Blood to tank, which conventional wisdom at the moment doesn't support.

I think this is similar to debates melee DPS classes used to have about Hit Rating. While is was certainly possible to cap it, it really wasn't the best way to maximize DPS. You had to balance the various beneficial stats. The same is bound to be true of tanking, while it's possible to max expertise, it's likely not advisable. And since it's not, it's equally inadvisable to dual-wield tank.

 

Crax

You are forgetting that FS can't be parried. That means the 2H rotation only has 7 parry opportunities from strikes, or only one more opportunity every 20 seconds.

 

Feorthas

I wasn't certain about that but I had a feeling it might be the case; I wanted to err in DW's favor to give it the best chance possible and counting FS was one way to get there.

I'd edit in the changes right now but I'm limited to an iPhone at the moment so I'll wait until later and put up with the redundant "FS can't be parried" posts after this one until then :P.

 

• Bad Luck

The problem I found with not using Death and Decay at the start of a pull means if Plague Strike or Icy Touch miss and you don't get that full Pestilence off in time then mobs tend to go everywhere and it's really hard to recover from that. I found it much more effective working around DnD's prohibitive Rune cost and just waiting for the Blood runes to refresh for a couple of quick Blood Boils.

I am kind of torn about Master of Ghouls in an Unholy Tanking build. I know they can be useful as sort of an off-tank and such, or even for Stunning something off of a healer with Gnaw, but I find I'm not able to manage him that well in the middle of the melee. I may try dropping MoG and just use the pet as Dark Pact fodder once I hit 80, since he's still great while leveling.

Butchery I'm torn about, too. It's also very nice while leveling, the Runic Power after kills is great, but I don't know how much of a contribution the 2/5s Runic Power tics in combat will be later on; stuff dies so fast in instances and I haven't had many Runic problems yet. But then again, I currently have On a Pale Horse and Unholy Aura factored into my considered build which could be taken out and moved over easily (2 floating talent points, if you will). I would probably lose On a Pale Horse before Unholy Aura just because I like running faster, dammit!

Then there is Night of the Dead to consider. This could be useful for even quicker Dark Pact fodder. Maybe just 1 point there could even be worth it (Dark Pact is on a 2m cooldown).

Of course, I can have my cake and eat it too by taking out Virulence (7/11/53) since it only affects Icy Touch and Death Coil for me, correct? (Or if I really need that 2% hit to insure IT Frost Fever application I could take out On a Pale Horse for it, which I may prefer since Lichborne and Icebound Fortitude should be able to manage all my Stun/Fear needs - I hope. There's also Pestilence application to consider as well!). I think I might like to keep Virulence is some form if this is the case, since missing a disease application is so annoying.

So maybe something like this: 7/11/53 (Updated: Switched Glacier Rot for Black Ice, thanks to Cambriel's advice - an oversight on my part, heh)

I will admit I've only tanked twice so far and am only level 71, so I'm still learning from trial and error and harassing higher level DKs (oh god, the constant respeccing has already started. This is going to be the end of me!). DK tanking can be quite hectic compared to what I was used to as a Druid tank; one flub up in your cycles and you sort of scramble on figuring out how to fix it. It's quite fun!

 

Cambriel

Not going to dissect that build entirely, but just as a minor point, Black Ice is inherently better in that build than Glacier Rot, so you might as well move those two points. You don't have Frost Strike or Howling Blast, so the only skill Glacier Rot will affect for Unholy is Icy Touch, and it will only add the 10% damage on diseased targets. Better to take 2 points of Black Ice and get 12% extra frost damage all of the time to your Icy Touch instead.

 

feistus

I almost always use a variation of Option 2 in the instances that I have tanked thus far with my Unholy build (currently lv 74)

Since this is Wrath of the AOE king, noone bothers to use any form of CC and expects tanks to be able to simultaneously hold aggro on the world. To that end my standard pull looks like this:

1) Death Grip a caster. If multiple casters LOS around a corner
2) IT > PS. At this point the rest of the mobs are generally there
3) DnD
4) Pestilence

If mobs are dying really fast, reverse 4 and 3.
This method generally cements threat to me without too much difficulty.

One of the things that I would ask from the community is a good reference for tanking gear. What are some decent target numbers for the avoidance stats? Defense stat?

 

Stoical

Edit: I fail at reading comprehension and didn't see he was picking up Lichborne.

So I don't completely waste the post, though - I personally wouldn't waste points on quicker Death Grip in Unholy, I'd rather put them anywhere else, for example some increased damage/threat. Slightly faster pulling and a fake-taunt don't seem worth 2 points for me in an already heavy tree.

 

Rosenrott

Alright...I read the replies to my spec and looking it over again (I was at work when I worked it out), I realize what was wrong with it.

Recently I've also tried out an Unholy tanking build, and was able to tank Azjol-Nerub with very little problems while at the same time am comfortable soloing as that spec. Wanting to get a bit of input on it, as there are quite a few intelligent people here that I'd value pointers/advice on.

The build at 80 will be: 7/11/53.

To briefly explain the idea of this build:

Has the basic avoidance talents from each spec, plus the 4% two-hand weapon damage from Blood for threat, improved icy touch, frost damage, and Lichbourne as an added panic button. The rest is Unholy stressing AOE tanking with longer diseases and Wandering Plague, along with Unholy Blight. EB and BCB is for added threat, and Pale Horse for the 30% stun reduction. I needed to place an extra point somewhere to get to the next tier so I got the 2% str/stam talent, even though I can see being annoyed with turning into a ghoul at death (prevents any druids from BRing me quickly should I drop, although that hasn't happened yet).

I skip Obliterate since it takes two runes I'm normally using for other things (I try and keep DnD down when available, and IT my main target to follow up with PS and Pestilence), and frankly if I have the two runes open I'd rather use SS as it averages about 1k non-crit damage a hit.

Pretty basic tank spec, so far my rotation is to pull (normally with IT, but DG if it's a caster), PS, Pestilence, DnD, then Bone Armor (so that Blade Barrier is up before BA goes up, and it doesn't get eaten right away). By that time UB is available and I keep that up until they're dead.

So far at 72 (tanking an instance with mostly 73-74 mobs) I had no problem taking on Azjol-Nerub. Any thoughts? Hopefully not as weird as my last spec?

 

crimsonsentinel

The prot warrior section has a great beginner's tank gear thread.


My take on DK tanking: Right now, the focus is on generating threat, and that may be because most people are still doing 5 mans where mobs are dying very quickly and dps generally outgears the instance. However, at least for the forseeable future, threat is not an issue for raid boss tanking so I think the proper discussion we should be having is which spec provides the best survivability for a DK. In this vein I think any build that doesn't include bone shield is severely underpowered. I'd expect a DK entering Naxx to have easily 40%+ avoidance counting blade barrier.

Because of the way bone shield scales with avoidance, I think a build that emphasises avoidance (a tri spec taking all the avoidance talents) woud be the best. Bone shield is also unique in that it has the side effect of indirectly scaling our mitigation with increasing levels of avoidance. That is, as our avoidance goes up, the damage we do take when we don't get hit goes down.

Now, when we're doing Arthas and DPS has skyrocketed, maybe we should talk about building threat. But I really don't see a point in doing so at the moment, when DK's clearly are the tanks atm that can be most easily bursted down.

 

Amaelalin

I believe the expertise required is identical. As I understand it, dual-wielding doesn't affect the percentile chance per swing that a boss will parry; the increase comes from (a) swinging more quickly (as most one-handed weapons are faster than most two-handed weapons) and (b) swinging with a second weapon, together increasing the opportunities for a given mob to parry within a static timeframe.

 

feistus

Thanks! I didnt want to assume that itemization was weighted the same for DKs as prot warriors.

 

Crax

I generally agree with your sentiment, though I disagree with the specific point about the need for Bone Shield. Bone Shield *is* tremendous, and compared solely against Unbreakable Armor, it's a pretty clear cut victor, particularly glyphed. However, comparing it against Frost tanking as a whole is a bit more accurate. A Frost tank will also have Frigid Dreadplate (3% miss) and Guile of Gorefiend (+6 sec on Icebound Fortitude). This brings Frost and Unholy much more in line, albeit with Frost having an advantage against non-Melee fights. Additionally, a Frost tank only needs to spend 5 points in Unholy; and Unholy tank probably needs to spend 11 in Frost. Combine that with a Frost DKs need to only take 50 points in Frost, compared to a likely 53 in Unholy, and the Frost tank also has more room for the tasty, early Blood talents.

To your point about emphasis on survivability, I completely agree. The art of DK tanking seems to be all about when and how to use our cooldowns. Without our cooldowns we are probably the "worst" of the 4 tanks at the moment. With judicious use of them, we are arguably the best. At the cost of one rune and 20 (or zero glyphed) runic power, we have ~40 seconds of each minute of *very* high survivability. Combine that with two "on use" trinket abilities that have 2 minute cooldowns, and we have a very nice "rotation" of survivability. Stack a chunk of those cooldowns, and we are probably the best tank in the game for dealing with an "enraged" boss. I think the real key for us is going to be determining the "best" usage of those abilities.

 

Rejju

Personally, I am not a big fan of On a Pale Horse, I'm not to sure the stun reduction is a major factor. Also, why spend 5 points in Magic Suppression and not get AMZ, seems like a waste to me. I'd also max out Impurity if you have a focus on AoE tanking as your threat is gained through magic damage. I'd go something like this. It focuses more on the AoE abilities and improving them. I also feel that improved death grip is a waste of talent points for anyone. And last but not least, turning your blood runes into death runes just owns.

 

Saabik

For those that care (someone asked this earlier in the thread), I was able to OT Naxx-10 as this unholy spec with quest greens and a few reputation blues:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I took hateful strikes on Patchwerk. Most of the AE I was able to tank without any issues, provided my healers were ready. Having bone shield for the start of any AE pack is simply amazing.

 

Rosenrott

I did 5 points in MS for the permanent 5% damage reduction in spells and an additional 25% spell absorption with AMS, meaning 100% resistance to spells for 5 seconds. I can see your point with AMZ, however I'm not a big fan of it personally. I know it affects you as well, but it looks like an ability that relies on the knowledge that your party will be taking spell damage...and if that's the case you're not doing your job.

I also concede that 10 seconds off of the CD for death grip isn't really worth the 2 points after running an instance with it...you don't use it nearly often enough anyway. Still a bit weary of Outbreak since I only use Pestilence once or twice in a battle anyway and it's not the damage I use it for, but for transferring diseases to other targets. And honestly I just don't see the big deal about Blood Boil. I can spend that 1 blood rune on much more useful skills.

Is corpse explosion any good, or has that really just been shelved for DPS specs? I can see it being a nice burst of AOE threat once the first target goes down, and it only takes 1 unholy (and 1 talent point). Otherwise alternatives (since at the 19 point mark you need to put a point somewhere to get to the next tier) are Outbreak (which I voiced opinion on above), Ravenous Dead (which is, needless to say, worthless for tanking), Necrosis (too many points for too little return value), On a Pale Horse (and I agree of it's questionable usefulness now), or right back to Unholy Command.

And while looking a bit further into Frost tanking, I came up with: 15/51/5, utilizing IT-->P/HB to keep aoe threat (with DnD thrown in of course) and Obliterate on the current target. I realize Death Chill (or Runic Power Mastery) isn't the greatest but I'm weary of using those points for Icy Talons instead, and I'm just not sure what Hungering Cold can really bring to the tanking table (aside from refreshing IT on all targets, but Pestilence does that just as well while also transferring any other diseases). With the one point left over that I ended up dumping into Deathchill it was either that, another 10 runic power (which I can see being useful if you're wanting to continue to macro Rune Strike to every disease and still have enough RP for Frost Strike and everything else, but everyone here seems to have concluded that it's not worth it), or Rune Tap (which a base 10% is again something most have concluded to be rather useless by itself).

Regardless I'll keep chugging at it, and any input is again definitely appreciated. My respec cost is already up to 50g =\ but such is the life of a new class.

 

Groggan

Ravenous Dead is not useless, %increase of STR is always good for us, since STR is our primary DPS stat and a secondary tanking stat. Maybe I'm biased to %increase talents from my days as a survival hunter way back when, but they always seem to pay off (particularly as gear progresses).

 

Rosenrott

It's 3 points for 3%. It's not worth the points unless you're going for the ghoul, in which case you're not really wanting to tank.

 

Rejju

Corpse explosion is pretty useless in my opinion. There just doesn't seem to be a real place for it outside of trash fights. It's really an opinion and only 1 point.

Outbreak is good simply for the extra AoE threat, blood strike does more damage than boil blood.

The points for Magic Suppression an AMZ, well lets face it AMZ is like an extra CD for Anti-Magic shell. The only question about that is, how many bosses really do magic damage to the tank. Right now, it's pretty worthless, but could be better in the future.

As far as frost tanking this is my absolute favorite spec for it. There is 1 floater point that i put into Runic Power Mastery that I just don't know where to put.

 

crimsonsentinel

You can get a build with both Frigid Dreadplate and bone shield in the same build. Death knights have very few mitigation/survival talents unfortunately. The additional talents from frost is mainly for threat. Guile of Gorefiend is very situational and not very good for general tanking (most warriors will agree that the old imp shield wall was a mediocre).

edit: I forgot, frost also gets unbreakable armor, which is good, but not nearly as good as bone shield. Being that it's a situational cooldown move, it doesn't pack enough punch to make using it actually reliably affect the course of the fight.

 

Rosenrott

Is Butchery really that good? 2 RP every 5 seconds just seems so insignificant. I'd personally take those points and the floater point and max out Morbidity...I've found a reduced CD on DnD is actually quite useful in extended fights, as it's a LOT of threat.

I've revised my Unholy tanking spec to: 7/11/53, although I'm tempted to take one of the points from Outbreak and use that to try Corpse Explosion.

 

KyuubiANBU

Hey all, fist post and first DK, so i'll try to keep it cleaned up.
My DK is still lvl 58 and i wanted to plan out my talents before i set out to lvl him. in the end i decide i want to tank, more specificaly, aoe tank. From my understanding, unholy is the way to go and i certainly understand why. So, after reading up here a little and playing with a talent calculator, i came up with a bit of an unusual unholy/frost hybrid spec, but i kinda like it. It has a couple kinks in it and i still consider it an experiment. Also to note, i intend on DWing in this spec
Now, for reasons. I went heavy into the unholy tree for a couple key talents, Necrosis, BCB, Ebon Plague, and Wandering Plague. Frost key talents are Icy talons with imp, Lichborne, Annih, and Nerves of Cold Steel, although all the frost talents i have help one way or another.
With the extra couple of points i decided to go with perma-ghoul and scourge strike. Ghoul is a nice bonus to dps, plus a stun, and death pact fodder in a tight spot. With 3 diseases, SS has been a signifigant damage dealer for me, also when glyphed increases the longevity of plagues. There are some talents that i felt bad leaving out, AMZ and Desecration to be specific. But 6 points for AMZ would give up way too much and i heard desecration isn't worth it. corpse explosion is useless from what i see.
Working on the 3 disease rotation to start, and when i get a good set of DW swords, BCB and Icy Talons can pick-up the white damage. After BBs my reaping will help me put out more SS and therefore more damage overall.

So, after this i have a few questions for the community. first, being a balance druid i dont know about weapon speeds. what would be optimal weapon speed to get the most out of BCB/IT? i heard slow/fast was best.
I also expect that i could sabotage myself with many opportunities for parrygibbs. how much expertise/hit rating will help avoid this, and if it happens, how much defence would i need to mitigate this.
While i'm here, how much defense does a DK need of this spec? i know the question's probably come up before :/
Lastly, rotation. PS, IT, pest...where from there? havent gotten oblit yet so i need to play around with that. is BS any good to throw in there?

Thanks all, i hope this little experiment works out well!

 

Rosenrott

I understand your thought process for wanting to DW as a tank, but as has been discussed previously it's not necessarily practical. With more weapon swings comes more chances for the target boss to parry, and with each parry they get a faster swing time which increases the damage you're taking. Not to mention the increased hit rating requirement (from 9% bosses-chance-to-parry against a 2h to 15-16% when DWing, which is a major increase in the amount of expertise needed and basically causes you to have to concentrate too much on it instead of stam/defense/parry/dodge).

As for the ghoul the DPS is minimal and it dies rather fast in aoe/swipes/cleaves, not to mention any DPS it IS dealing isn't being applied to your threat. Desecration is actually quite excellent in my experiences as not only does it provide a snare in case one breaks (hasn't happened to me yet, but in theory) from the group to your party, it also gives you 5% bonus to all damage you do as long as you're in that circle. Corpse Explosion isn't seen as very practical for tanking, although I'm still tempted to test that out one of these days as a threat burst.

You've also skipped two very important avoidance talents - Blade Barrier (10% parry, and trust me it's up 100% of the fight) and Dodge, which the flat 5% dodge isn't something that can be beaten.

Rotations I typically run IT (Icy Touch) to pull --> DnD (Death and Decay) --> BS (to get Blade Barrier going) --> BA (Bone Armor) --> PS (Plague Strike) --> Pestilence --> UB (which by the way is a great source of AOE threat, and you're saying you want to AOE tank...). From there I'm free to just concentrate on one target and everything is burned down fairly quickly. This is as of level 73.

 

A Man In Black

Feel free to disregard any item with block rating or block value on it, of course. I've been editing the list for my own use for my DK; I'll post it somewhere here when/if I finish it.

 

• CureFC

Regarding macro'ing Rune Strike and not having RP for Unholy Blight: I found that macro'ing RS to BS, DS, and SS and leaving it off IT, PS, Pestilence, and BB worked best for me. That allows me to perform my opening IT -> PS -> Pest on aoe packs without burning RP on a RS proc. I bound RS to a key as well so if I'm on a single target and want to activate it during the opening moves I can do so easily. This has more or less solved all my issues with not having UB available when I want it to be.

There seems to be considerable question as to the value of Butchery, with some people thinking it is totally insignificant while others are touting it over 2h weapon spec. I've seen multiple figures put forth for threat generated from Butchery RP gains; does anyone have some definite numbers on it? I'm currently playing around with this as an Unholy tanking spec, and I'm not sure whether to go with Butchery or 2h spec. Unholy does so much of its damage through spells that 2h spec is devalued some, but the question really hinges around the threat generated by Butchery RP gains.

Notes on spec: I skipped Necrosis and BCB because Rune Strike eats a lot of your auto attacks. The 1 extra point in Blood and the 1 point in Magic Suppression are kinda floater/filler points - the Magic Suppression point especially might be better spent on Gargoyle for times when you aren't tanking. I also considered putting it in Unholy Command, but that's mostly because I like to pull fast; it would mostly be a convenience thing. Glyph Bone Shield, Icy Touch, and Dark Command. I'm not a fan of the specs that go 11 deep in Frost just to get Lichborne. It's a great talent but you invariably waste at least 2 and more likely 5 points getting there. It's a long cooldown, and I don't really think Unholy needs it to be effective. It just feels awkward.

For Frost, I'd also suggest getting the minor glyph for Blood Tap and macro'ing Blood Tap and Unbreakable Armor together. Under most circumstances that will allow you to pop UA with highly reduced consequences. I'm sure there are other similarly good uses for a Blood Tap macro that I haven't thought of yet.