IMO as a Frost tank I will be sticking with [Inevitable Defeat] and passing [Betrayer of Humanity] to a DPS DK.

The top end damage is nice and the extra AP (about 25) or so is nice but lack luster vs the benefits of the Expertise and STR and higher AGI on the [Inevitable Defeat]




I have the [Essence of Gossamer] and the proc rate is in line with blues but its a DR proc so in a MT situation 140 DR isnt all that great.

The 2 you suggested with the stam gems is a great idea and paired with blacksmithing you can get 3 more gems added to your gear (bracer, gloves, belt)

double post - noobsauce....how the !@#$ do I delete this?

I've been looking into Meta gems recently and was wondering what everyone uses or the general consensus is for the best DK tanking meta.

[Austere Earthsiege Diamond] seems to be the best, but are we concerned that with the changes to frost presence we will hit the armor cap too quickly?

If the cap is an issue, I guess there is always [Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] which is nice cause it uses the same layout as the Austere gem. And the secondary ability won't suck either.

I don't really like [Eternal Earthsiege Diamond] because of the worthless shield block value... The +def is nice and if I really needed it to keep at the armor cap it would be one thing... but wasted effects really bother me. Its just not EJ.

I suppose there is always [Powerful Earthsiege Diamond] but I'm not sure. Is this one better then the first two?

What do you guys think/use?

The armor cap is like 49k. You won't hit that anytime soon.

Also remember that if you took bladed armor, the more armor you have the more AP you have, and therefor the more threat you generate.

This seems logically the best choice. The armor cap isn't going to be an issue right off the bat - and if it *does* become an issue, Blizz will do some thing about it. I'm positive they already have workings in the pipelines to make sure some thing doesn't break by this change.

The concern is specifically regarding armor values with IBF active. That said, don't forget that even though they're buffing Frost Presence's baseline armor bonus, they're also effectively nerfing IBF at the same time so things aren't completely out of whack while it's active. The chance of hitting the armor cap after the patch are quite slim, and even if you DO manage to do that, at most it's capped 21 seconds of every minute (deep Frost spec w/T7 bonus).

[Austere Earthsiege Diamond] really seems like a no-brainer in my eyes.

EDIT: Brain fart, I meant UA, not IBF.

Tilted seems to have got a few things mixed up.

- Frost presence is going from 60% +armour to 80% +armour.

- IBF is changing from 50% flat damage reduction, to 20% with a modifier for defence to give ~35% when crit immune.

- Unbreakable Armour is 25% base armour increase (not changing), but the glyph is changing to be +15% extra (or 40% glyphed as far as I'm aware - can't log in to PTR to check right now whether it'll be 40% or 25%*1.15 or 28.75%).

I think it's possible to cap armour at the moment, but only with both Ancestral Fort (or inspiration) + Unbreakable. I don't think they'll modify armour bonuses based on this, as Unbreakable can only be active for a third of the time if you use it every cooldown.

That's actually what I have right now for tanking, except my Monarch Crab is sitting with (2) +27 Defense Gems. I would recommend getting the Essence though over the Ruby Hare for pure +stam.

I think you're better off dropping (2) +41 stam gems in the Monarch Crab and then pick up the JC ring and drop the 3rd +41 stam gem into that. Those seem like the two most unlikely pieces of equipment to replace for a long time. That would free up a trinket slot for whatever you want (maybe the +dodge badge trinket?)

That's what I'm going to do anyways. I'm hoping that will give me a pretty substantial boost, especially once I stop running the crappy Veteran build I have been using.

You should never be putting the 41 stam gems into blue sockets; that defeats the purpose of a prismatic gem.

I'm getting the valor badge ring probably next week. I thought about getting the JC one, but the 52 defense and threat generation on the badge ring is better.

With my current gear in order to be def capped post-patch I'm going to need the defense enchant and the new tank sigil, and every time the sigil buff drops I'll be open for crits. (but with a 30 second duration that shouldn't happen, esp if I pull with IT)

And even after I get all my stuff from 25 mans, the extra defense is gonna be nice for the avoidance factor.


I really just want to know at what point does the armor from UA and the extra 6 seconds for IBF become better DR than bone shield. (re frost vs. unholy)

I don't know if I agree with that, I think the purpose of the gems are that they are nearly double the stats of the blue versions.

I've been quite content with dropping +expertise & +stam gems into red slots. The only rough spot has been yellow slots after hitting def cap.

I have a quick question.

Is the first post updated with current information, or is a perusal of all 51 pages necessary?

Not just for time savings, but just to make sure the builds and so on of the first page are accurate.

The link that's at the top of the OP takes you to an accurate version of the OP. The builds there are tested and proven, though equally viable builds exist with several variations. The builds are also largely applicable after the upcoming patch, and I will keep my post current.

I'd like to see the OP updated, if the poster's not active anymore, do we have any options short of restarting a thread?

First post was last updated a month ago so relatively recent. But even then I would take some of the statements with a pinch of salt. The entire 2h vs DW "There are no dual-wielding specs that generate comparable threat to 2-hand tanking while retaining other essential tanking talents. There are also serious parry-hasting concerns that currently render DW tanking inferior to 2H tanking." paragraph is at best, being a bit absolute. There are DW specs which offer comparable threat, and certainly contain all the tanking talents you will need. And the parry-haste argument which has been done to death is a concern certainly, but not that serious.

Likewise the bit "In general, any talents that are chance on auto-attack should be avoided" is just plain wrong.

-edit- Options available: A mod with time on their hands going through the thread and removing posts that are out of date, wrong, opinion not backed by any empirical or theory evidence. Which would probably cut down on the page count to about 20 However frankly I think they have better things to do with their time.

At this point I would rather see a new thread with info thats current (live & test server) with the best posts of this thread pasted into it. Which while also time consuming, can be done by a regular poster. However it might run foul of being moderated for having no new info. Likewise getting any sort of consensus beyond basic tanking builds is liable to be a nightmare.

Currently insisting on people wading through over 50 pages of misinformation to find the accurate data is not very efficient. Its a waste of everyones time.

Buck, when you say your post, do you mean a post you have in this thread, or located somewhere else.

And it would be great if we could update the OP, or start a new thread, but I understand the frustrations of theory crafters also when newer folks like myself come in and ask simplistic questions repeatedly.

It's unfortunate Blood is not better at tanking, it's definitely my favorite; especially after the cleave effect for HS goes in.

He means a post in this thread that is linked in the end word 'Here' in the first sentence of the OP. Its hard to see the link due to EJ's forum style.

Once you hit Defense Cap, that axe becomes just a stat bonus, in which, the sword and axe are identical, but 90 parry rating can be used no matter how "good" you are.

You understand that 90def rating is ~2.2% avoidance and 90parry rating is 1.8%parry right? And that defense because it's spread out suffers less from diminishing returns. In all cases, the 90def rating weap is better than the parry one, even over the def cap.

RE - Updating the main post:

A third option would be to get some serious work done in the theorycraft wiki and have the first post simply point there. Simple solutions that require a minimum of effort for the admins are the best afterall

If wishes were fishes...

The problem with the theorycraft wiki (assuming I'm reading you correctly and you mean the TTT linked on the main forum page) is that its a closed system to all intents and purposes. Its not a wiki. Its just a selection of articles. At least the forum has peer review. Review of an article on DK Tanking is not something I would ever submit to screening editors (and currently it appears there are two of them) without first verifying they have both regularly played a DK, and in a tanking role. But that's just the screening, Who will eventually vet the article? What are their credentials?

The articles cant be edited by others, so changes/inaccuracies would have to go through the admins anyway. Its actually LESS functional than the forum because there is no discussion involved. What 'work' can be done when the articles up there are out of date pretty much as soon as they go up with such a new class. And less able to be modified than a forum post? Not to mention, actually getting accurate info up there is hardly 'minimum effort' is it? Have you seen the submission guidelines? I would find it easier to get an article on DK Tanking into a national paper

I still think having a regular established player/poster winnow through this thread here and pick out the important info is the best choice. Arrange it neatly into concise sections, link them back to the original thread if anyone wants to wade through the fog, bobs your uncle.

-edit- Of course I could be proved wrong, as an experiment Feorthas, take a look at the DK DPS article, pick a number of inaccuracies (for they are legion!) and see how long it takes to get them changed

You understand that there is no such thing as a "defense cap"?

Im fairly certain he is reffering to the point in which defence skill gives crit immunity.
This point is wrongly but commonly reffered to as the defence cap.