Zerath

Read another one of my quotes - I state that I understand Unholy has a different mindset with Sigils. I do not plan on staying Unholy seeing as Frost (so far) will be thee superior tank build.

 

Shimerra

Sorry I typed unholy at the end but I meant frost. I was under the impression that even with the CD removal on HB obliterate still won out for single target with the obvious exception of procs like rime being active and you're still trading a little bit of avoidance for a pretty big threat increase.

 

Homeyslice

Anyone that's tried blood without Annihilation, what rotation do you use if you cannot Obliterate?

I would guess you'd Death Strike instead, but doesn't that cut down on TPS? Would having more points spent in Blood rather than Annihilation make up for this TPS loss, ie Blood Gorged?

 

Uhkt

I'm finding myself fond of these Veteren of the third war builds, but I am still a little confused about subversion. I've read along he way that it is bugged. Is this true? I plan to heavily rely on obliterate so will the threat loss be a huge factor if this skill is infact bugged atm? Should I just skip that skill and put points into something else?

 

Pyros

Whoever said that has not shown any proof, and I haven't seen any evidence it is bugged. When I'm DPS speced I'll rip aggro off any tank if I go frost presence, which with a 25%reduction would probably be quite hard.



Rotation is something like OB > PS > IT > BS > BS and repeat until the end. I'd say Blood Gorged would give more TPS than Annihilation, but I hate wiping my diseases of and having to reapply them every rotation, and I'm not sure the time lost doing PS+IT instead of another OB actually gives you an advantage in the end due to being tight on GCDs and PS/IT being very weak compared to oblit in a deep blood build.

 

Zerath

As of right now - OB > HB but I'll be toying with a DW build since it's been unclear at how much TPS it's able to output. Other classes show us that DW > 2H with gear. So, HB > OB for my reasoning and the sigil (+def) would also enable me to gem a little more for +Hit.

 

bigdawg78

Ok I'm new here, but I have a question. I've been looking forward to having Inevitable Defeat drop for a two-handing tanking weapon, but realized today that expertise seems to contradict the rune strike mechanic. If I get too much expertise, all of a sudden I can't use that anymore. After 3.0.8 it should contribute quite a bit of threat.

Does the fact that expertise negate the rune strike mechanic change the worth of expertise, and the placement of Inevitable Defeat as the "best in slot" tanking two-hander in the game currently?

 

Consider

Rune Strike is when you parry or dodge an enemy attack, not when the enemy parries or dodges one of your attacks. Thus, expertise is completely irrelevant to it.

 

Shadowalker

The only options aside from the defense sigil are the sigil of awareness and the respective damage sigils: +203 damage for icy touch, and +203 damage for scourge strike. For those without access to the sigil of awareness, we only have 2 options. I don't know how it is for unholy, but for frost +203 damage to icy touch seems lack-luster compared to the sigil of awareness.

With this in mind, I will most likely be using the defense sigil on most fights except those really threat intensive fights (Malygos comes to mind). As off-tank, threat is often not an issue. For main-tanks; however, gearing around the damage sigil for threat fights will likely be most popular.

 

Pyros

This is a very facepalming question, how can you be tanking for weeks considering your gear, and still not know how Rune Strike works.

And they're not changing much to RS in 3.0.8 either, the threat increase mostly compensate the damage loss. It'll do slightly more threat, for significantly less damage.

 

Shimerra

By options I meant the runeforge, trinkets, etc provided plenty of "options to become crit immune" that the sigil probably wouldn't be needed for long if at all even by under geared new players to reach that point. I'm well aware of the astounding lack of options for sigils.

 

Davia

With the way Rune Strike works and how much of our threat is coming from Rune Strike, I don't think dual wield TPS is going to be viable any time soon. First of all, you're taking the damage that's being modified by the 200% (or coming 150%) weapon damage from a 2H weapon range to a 1H weapon range, costing you a lot of threat. Secondly, the faster your weapon is, the more RP you're spending to light up Rune Strike on the same percentage of your attacks. Even a 2.5 1H ([Broken Promise]) is going to take 36% more RP than a 3.4 2H to do proportionate Rune Striking. And if you're planning on using a fast 1H like [Last Laugh] to gear for Killing Machine, then the RP needed to keep Rune Striking on the same percentage of attacks is over twice that of a 3.4 2H.

Another issue is that you will always be doing splash damage with HB if you want to do decent threat, and thus breaking any kind of CC or killing adds that are being kept low (Malygos sparks for stacking or Faerlina adds, etc).

 

Zerath

Oh, it's just a test over a few raids to see how 2H VS. DW stacks. This is the exact reason I want to do it - no one has any idea besides theorycrafting. It'll be worth it to see it in action. Now, the increase RP usage is proper since you won't need to use the extra GCD on DC, so, no real issue there.

Malygos - if the spark is by his mouth you already have issues. We don't use adds on Faerilina. I can't think of a situation currently where HB would break CC, it's very possible in Ulduar this will prove to be an issue, though.

 

Davia

Extra RP for less threat is absolutely an issue, as RP can be converted to threat with other abilities (depending on spec it would be UB, DC, or FS). You talk about needing to use a GCD on DC as if it is a hassle and not something that is generating more threat.

 

Shadowalker

I've done no testing on the matter, but pure observation tells me that DC actually generates reduced threat. Pulling with death coil vs. my ghoul, my ghoul usually gets aggro. Pulling with Icy Touch vs. my ghoul, I usually hold aggro for 10 seconds or so. This is purely observation, and could simply be coincidence, but if it proves true, it is certainly worth consideration.

I'll try to do some testing on this later.

Edit: Note that the aggro hold on Icy Touch may be caused by DoT ticks.

 

Crax

I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Your math would be correct if combat used a multi-roll system, but it's been pretty definitively proven that it doesn't. If it was, we'd never have been able to "push Crushes off the table" like we did in Burning Crusade.

Consequently, the percentages from Dodge, Parry and Miss are strictly additive when considering total avoidance. So in your example, the DK would start with only being hit 43% of the time. Adding in the 3% avoidance from Stoneskin Gargoyle, and it's 40%. With Swordshattering, it'd be 39%.

There will certainly be fights where that 1% avoidance is more important; that's why all of us should have multiple tanking weapons after next patch. However, as I've previously stated, between the reasonable straight comparison, the opportunity cost of Swordshattering (the need to gem/enchant for Defense), and the *possibility* that it shifts the DR "cap" and I believe there is a *very* strong argument for defaulting to SG, particularly when you toss in the gravy - IBF apparently doesn't cap at any level of Defense that has been measured on the PTR. When that's up 33% of the time for a geared Frost DK, the potential mitigation improvement shouldn't be ignored.

 

Harion

I send you back to my post, where I posted that, on a heroic target dummy, HB is better/equal than OBLI.
DK Tanking Discussion

If you compare those two medium hits, you'll see that in the first 6 min. try, HB has a better avg. hit.
In the second try, HB has +- the same avg. dmg of OBLI.

If you are frost speccd., in a certain fight (for example, Sapphiron) OBLI is better than HB, but in other fights HB is better than OBLI because of Killing spree (if you'r gonna try DW), Rime.

In addition, add the lesser hit-rating/expertise required to hit with HB.
OBLI can be parried, dodged, HB not.

After the patch goes on, I think i'll be spamming HB.

RP generation isn't that much of a problem with the Blessing of Sanctuary in raid, haven't you tried it?

 

• Furiosa

Is gemming for hit a good idea? I'm in pretty phenomenal gear, and I'm at 200 Expertise (which is awesome ) but only 125 hit... Which tends to blow. I'm hurting on threat these days, the top dps in my guild are catching up / passing me at certain points. Should I gem [Vivid Forest Emerald] in a few pieces?

 

Shimerra

When directing my comments at zerath I was discussing threat gains with a 2h weapon and using the sigil of awareness, which it appears that you are making a DW comparison. Using the Red Sword of Courge(an inferior MH to yours weapon damage wize) and the Sigil of awareness i'm seeing Oblit hits 300-400 higher than your recount so I of course have to ask if you made the comparison with the sigil at all and raid buffs? Also what exactly is the cookie cutter frost DW build, because I can't ever seem to fit Killing Machine(I'm going to assume you meant this instead of spree, once again I'm a frost tank retard so apologies for mistakes) in any builds and didn't think it made that huge of an impact with the very low crit rates DK tanks run with. I'd also like to reiterate i'm terribly inexperienced with frost.


As for RP generation, not everyone runs with a protection paladin. Although I don't think you were directing this one at me.

 

Foundry

You can't build threat if your attacks miss. It's simple.

Aim for Hit to 8%, before even considering expertise.

 

Harion

You misunderstood and I explained badly what i was trying to say... :P
Actually i'm tanking with a 2handed weapon, and, on a target dummy (without that sigil that, yea, I forgot its existence DAMN DROP RATE ) HB hits better/equal than a not-sigild-OBLI.
Anyway, i got an improvement on the equip and I should re-do that try in a 25man raid with the sigil, because yeah, 420 dmg on OBLI is NOT shit (a bit overpowered! :P) and tends to change my mind about HB and OBLI :P

About Killing spree, yes, in these days i was discussing about this rogue's skill so I got a bit confused :P

I know that everyone don't runs with a prot-pally and, yeah, i'm a but lucky with this luck :P.

I feel sorry for the misunderstanding things in my posts, but I feel like a retard-english-speaker so, excuse me :P


p.s. About DW discussion, I was seeing the other thread and I was looking at their DPS, how about trying the DW spec, change it a bit, and try to make more TPS with a DW spec, discuss? :P

 

Shimerra

Then I still remain confused because even taking into account oblit is getting pumped up a bit by Ebon plague for me my 1h unsigil'd obliterates are hitting about as hard as your 2h obliterates if that's what you were using for those recount tests. When I switched between the Colossal Skull-clad Cleaver and The Jawbone both weapons their unsigil'd numbers averaged even higher than sigil'd 1h weapons(understandably). I'm hoping it can be explained away by some fairly large gear upgrades since you performed that recount test.

 

Harion

this is what i tried out now.

with my actual spec, without killing machine (that would be a must in the upcoming patch) on an heroic dummy.

I'm actually recalling that i forgot to glyph Obli, which could be the difference between our damage t.t

 

pindle

While I agree you should expect a tank to be crit immune, it really isn't going to break your entire raid being just a tad
under the def softcap. Most healers do know how to heal DK's; they're "prepared" for the fact that a damage spike *may* occur and if so will heal accordingly. So far I haven't had many complaints from my healers while clearing Naxx10 (hc raids postponed till after the holidays), while my starting tanking gear was kinda shitty.

As an ex warrior tank, after the change to the warrior talent, where we suddenly lost 20 defense (and no, this is not
rating), being 5 or 10 below it isn't the end of the world some people seem to make it look like as I didn't even bother to fill it up yet kept tanking all content without issues. I did inform the healers ofcourse but didn't notice any difference at all.
Sure an 18k crit hurts but is it really that much of a dangerous spike comparing to your 32k+ (?) buffed HP? Don't forget we no longer have risk of additional crushings to deplete your healthpool instantly.

Ofcourse I agree any tank should look at it #1 prio to fix while under 540 def, but don't overexaggerate its importance all over the forums while we're running current trivial content. This is where the "lol no 540 def u can't tank nub" ignorance comes from.
I'm actually considering regemming for all sta and getting the Sigil to cover the ~8-10 def loss, even although I know myself relying alot on Scourge Strike glyph and juggling diseases alot (i.e. using less IT). Maybe I'm just blessed with on the ball healers? /shrug

 

pdpi

You can't build threat if your attacks are dodged or parried, either. This said, spells are hit-only, there's not dodge/parry there, so hit rating benefits spells whereas expertise doesn't. And, in FurÃ*osa's particular case, there's no expertise socketing in sight -- it's all baseline from gear/talents. So the question isn't hit vs expertise, it's whether or not to seek +hit.

Yes, +hit is going to be a nice threat boost, and, especially, it'll help with reliability. Gemming for +hit is going to eat away at your survivability -- in particular, effective health (since you're at 540 def, I assume you won't drop def gems) -- so I'd be very careful about it. Your other alternative is swapping items some items around. Either you drop survivability for threat, which once again you should be careful about, or you replace expertise-heavy tank items with hit-heavy sidegrades. I don't know, off the top of my head, how your threat is broken down in terms of melee/spells, so I can't advise you on whether you should do that expertise/hit swapping.