Can you do the numbers for 93 hit rating (2.84% melee, 3.55% spell) and 40 expertise skill (10%)? That's what i have in my best in slot tanking gear (gemmed for stam mostly). I'm pretty sure obliterate edges out even more. Its highly unlikely that we will be hit capped in tanking gear (and generally gemmed for stam and/or avoidance) until end Ulduar or maybe even only after that.
Since you have 2K rating in Arena, I suggest you take the Battlemaster trinket with lots of hits to replace your 84 dodge trinket.
I would say your gear is "better" than most DKs worldwide, but it seems poorly itemized.
No offense but you took the highest iLevel item you could find for each slot and thought it would work, but it doesn't this way. You should use Heritage instead of KT's necklace (because it has no hit) etc...
So, with the patch, I started looking at some blood tank specs... This was also posted in my guild forums, so it generalizes to non-dks x.x. I also haven't been following too closely with talent bugs and such, so I may ask a few noob questions.
My concerns: Subversion - I'd really love to get that extra crit bonus but 1. is the threat reduc bugged to apply universally? and 2. where would I get the points?
Death Rune Mastery - Sure I get those turned into death runes, but do I really see myself often using them for other things than disease popping or anni, which already takes those exact runes I'm converting?
Abom's Might - Yeah, it's only 2% str for 2 points, but it's sure nice if I could manage it.
Bloodworms - Are they really good enough healing to merit 3 points? Does their threat feed into mine? Do I get healing threat?
Hysteria - Is it worth chucking a point to get a decent dps boost for someone, given this is a serious tank spec?
Dancing Rune Weapon - Does this damage convert into my threat? Either way, is the damage bonus /and the threat bonus worth it for more RP dump outside of RS and DC?
Unholy points - Here, I'm missing a ton of the basic points for increased disease duration, spell hit, DND bonus, etc. How badly will this harm my tanking? Can it be pulled from somewhere else?
Also, if there's anything blatantly wrong with my gear (aside from the parry gems instead of dodge, yes, I know), pointing out my stupidity is always appreciated.
Ok a little preface, I've used my current build to tank 3 drakes sarth in 25 man just fine, but 10 man seems a different beast. So I was thinking of changing things up. Two reasons really, 1) I'm tired of being specced into Ebon Plague and when someone in the guild decides they suddenly want to switch to unholy and waste my talent points. 2) Sarth demands stam and Veteran of the Third War provides quite a bit and you don't give up much to get it.
You basically give up imp icy touch, ebon plague, which normally just gets stolen and 10% damage to your spells and abilities. You gain 1% crit, blood tap, mark of blood, 4% weapon damage, 6% strength and stam, and 1 expertise.
Do you think that would be worth the trade? I don't want this to be a "look at my spec" post, but I would like opinions.
Ok a little preface, I've used my current build to tank 3 drakes sarth in 25 man just fine, but 10 man seems a different beast. So I was thinking of changing things up. Two reasons really, 1) I'm tired of being specced into Ebon Plague and when someone in the guild decides they suddenly want to switch to unholy and waste my talent points. 2) Sarth demands stam and Veteran of the Third War provides quite a bit and you don't give up much to get it.
You basically give up imp icy touch, ebon plague, which normally just gets stolen and 10% damage to your spells and abilities. You gain 1% crit, blood tap, mark of blood, 4% weapon damage, 6% strength and stam, and 1 expertise.
Do you think that would be worth the trade? I don't want this to be a "look at my spec" post, but I would like opinions.
I think if you're really set out for maxing stam it will work, the threat you lose from Unholy would be made up a little by BA. Personally though, I would ditch Wandering plague and maybe even Mark of blood (depending on your healers) in favor of 2/3 imp icy touch. Mark of blood can be decent, but if your healers are anything but terrible you'll probably have a continous stream of big heals incoming anyway. At a reasonable 35k HP a MoB heal would heal you for 1400 HP, decent but I think I'd prefer -4% attack speed, especially since we're already pretty dependant on avoidance when compared to warriors and paladins. This is ofcourse, unless you have an arms warrior thunderclapping for you.
I've noticed something interesting. I have been recently been playing around with the tankcraft spreadsheet. Its telling me some interesting things that I wonder if you guy have come across as the same problem.
First My Spec is pretty much a cookie cutter frost build with a few quirks (like HC that I might drop in favor of something else). Morbidity for that 15 sec DnD which luckily I don't seem to be affected by the FPS bug.
Second, I'm linked to my armory build if you want to see my gear. I'm currently hit capped for melee with >8%
According to the spreadsheet, it says my optimal rotation for TPS should be PS>IT>BS>BS>OB
and when I plug in the (only) rotation with DnD it says I produce as much 500 Lower TPS then the optimal.
This confuses me as even on single target pulls I feel like i have more control with DnD down every 15 seconds or so then just a straight rotation.
Is the spreadsheet just wrong or should I trust what I'm seeing in game?
I did noticed that the DnD rotation in the spreadsheet is using a wonky rotation that seems to be more applicable for aoe tanking, perhaps that is the reason why. But there was no option to compare a single target tanking with DnD weaved in there every so often like DnD>PS>IT>BS>OB>OB>BS>OB etc...
Anyone else come across something like this?
I think I got Glazed over for that last bit of conversation. Can I get some feedback on this? Is DnD the best beginning, middle and end for us or is the tankcraft spreadsheet right and we generate more TPS with a single rotation such as what its suggesting?
I think if you're really set out for maxing stam it will work, the threat you lose from Unholy would be made up a little by BA. Personally though, I would ditch Wandering plague and maybe even Mark of blood (depending on your healers) in favor of 2/3 imp icy touch. Mark of blood can be decent, but if your healers are anything but terrible you'll probably have a continous stream of big heals incoming anyway. At a reasonable 35k HP a MoB heal would heal you for 1400 HP, decent but I think I'd prefer -4% attack speed, especially since we're already pretty dependant on avoidance when compared to warriors and paladins. This is ofcourse, unless you have an arms warrior thunderclapping for you.
Everyone runs those 0/32/39 builds now and they all have Imp Icy Touch. So it's not just tc, another dk in the raid can keep the buff up for you and will even without you asking. Mark of blood and Wondering plague are just fillers really. Wondering plague can help alleviate not having UB for aoe packs. 2/3 would probably be better for that, but mark of blood has it's uses since it heals every target that person damages, not just yourself.
Everyone runs those 0/32/39 builds now and they all have Imp Icy Touch. So it's not just tc, another dk in the raid can keep the buff up for you and will even without you asking. Mark of blood and Wondering plague are just fillers really. Wondering plague can help alleviate not having UB for aoe packs. 2/3 would probably be better for that, but mark of blood has it's uses since it heals every target that person damages, not just yourself.
Agree on your TC/IT argument. Wandering plague is decent for AoE ofcourse, guess it depends on what you're after, surviavility or threat. I personally am not impressed by Blood tap either, but maybe I'm spoiled with good healers. If they are fillers, why not e.g. take Subversion, Scent of Blood or Butchery for more threat?
I just don't really see the point in having self-healing talents while most of the time at least one healer is pumping 8+k heals on you.
I've been OT/MT in Naxx25 with a 23/5/43 spec for 2 weeks now.
I really like it and threat never been an issue.
(My guild's DPS aren't as big as those shown on some WWS tho...)
I just wondered if there was any good tool to estimate TPS or do I have to look at what Omen says?
Anyway, thank you for this great thread.
~
Omen is what I use. If there is another add-on I'm completely unaware.
Originally Posted by Shadai
I think I got Glazed over for that last bit of conversation. Can I get some feedback on this? Is DnD the best beginning, middle and end for us or is the tankcraft spreadsheet right and we generate more TPS with a single rotation such as what its suggesting?
Last time I looked at the Tank Spreadsheet it said to use DnD first (which is what I do on threat intensive fights) which normally nets me ~5ktps. I drop DnD out of my rotation and TPS lowers to ~4-4.5k.
Mind you, RNG could always be favoring Rune Strike at any given rotation. :\
If this is old news, i'm sorry. I just stepped on the PTR for the first time and noticed something that couldn't possibly have been overlooked by everyone else. My glyphed Bone Shield shows up with 6 charges. Since i haven't read about a Bone Shield change (except the 40% to 20% nerf), i checked the tooltip: 4 charges. Checked the glyph tooltip: "adds 1 charge". Then i checked charge usage while getting hit and all 6 charges mitigated and got reduced one by one.
/edit: Seems like the glyph got changed to +2 charges, since it's back to 4 charges after removing the glyph.
So the nerf doesn't hurt as much and longer uptime further smoothes the incoming damage. Is unholy tanking back in the business for 3.0.8?
I was wondering what is the current highest TPS tanking build was atm. The reason I ask this is because recently the mage in our guild has been catching up to me relatively fast in raids on TPS and it is starting to concern me. I am currently spec'd 9/11/51.
Hi there, long time lurker first time poster
My guild and I just started poking around in Naxx 10, and i made a small list of items that would look pretty on me, and my eyes got caught on [Death's Bite]
Now, my guild has priority on tanks, so, should this item be prio'd to DK tanks, or the dps (we currently run with Blood DK and Titan's Grip warrior).
They claim that i got no problems with threat atm (top dps is at 2500 or so through Military wing), my argument is though it's better to stay ahead on threat, rather than them catching up.
Another argument, is that i should pick up Titansteel Defender and then rotate gems. If i were to do that, hit or expertise would probably go in. Which Death's Bite has (62 hit rating).
Meh, i got myself confused now
What do you think?
Second, i had a crazy thought - come next patch - would it be completely nuts to stack defense?
Titansteel Defender, new Sigil, Swordshattering will prolly be better due to DR) as an addition to existing 540-ish defense, would that be completely messed up?
I'd say if you take Death's Bite, your DPS will be free to have Betrayer of Humanity
I got lucky and got Inevitable Defeat the first week I joined my guild tho, I still think this is the best DK weapon, but since it's a trash loot in Naxx25, it's all but reliable to plan on looting it.
Death's bite is the close 2nd, and the Hit rating really help holding aggro (tho it's more of an issue on iLevel 213 than ILvl 200 gear)
I have a quick question for Sarth tanks. We were working on +2 the other day, and while the breaths were pretty much a non-issue, his melee after the first drake died was destroying me. The reason for this was that every so often (several times a fight, at least) he'd double-swing me. This happened on every pull all night. 2 hits + a normal swing afterwards was just death every time if not dodged/parried, since I only had ~30k health after the 25% debuff.
I can find no discernible reason for him doing this. It was *NOT* a parryhaste; the combat log was checked numerous times, and half the time I wasn't even attacking (I stop attacking once twilight torment goes up, other than to keep Blade Barrier up.) Does anyone have any sort of input that I'm missing here?
About specs and TPS:
Single target, chances are Frost is slightly better than Unholy... when I switched from Unholy to Frost a few weeks ago, I probably got about a 400-500TPS boost single-target. The problem with Unholy TPS (not likely to be fixed soon, if ever) is that for a DK, TPS ~= DPS... and Unholy's DPS is so dependent on the 'Ghoul and the Garg'... two friends that, while being ever-loyal supporters, don't provide us with any threat.
That said, is there anything you can do to improve without respeccing? Your expertise is very, very low right now... remember that as tanks, we get "double-duty" from expertise until the dodge softcap (6.5%)... get either Armsman or Expertise on your gloves... and improve those bracers! You're past the def-cap, so even if you don't get any drops, you can grab ones with a bit more threat (hit rating) from an easy Oculus quest...
About loot priority: [Death's Bite] is a really good choice for a DK tank, but we need to realize that it's exceptionally well itemized for any DPS warrior or DPS DK. A lot of people are still stuck in the very old Pre-BC mentality of "whatever the tank wants, the tank gets", because raids used to be primarily about keeping up the tank, and the tank needed the best gear possible. Now, in many fights the tanks still are the main points of failure, but guilds that ALWAYS give tanks loot often find themselves getting stuck on gear-check type bosses for much longer than they should. Enrage timers and the like ensure that DPS needs to be geared as well, or else the boss just won't go down.
IMO, the only 2h weapon that a DK tank should have full-on, you're-crazy-if-you-don't-do-it priority on (in a loot system that includes priority) is [Inevitable Defeat]. Not just because it's perfectly itemized for a DK (or a bear, come 3.0.8), but because it's a trash drop, and thus very, very unpredictable when the next will drop, etc. Everything else is more situational. I use [Black Ice] great avoidance and armor from AGI, plenty of +hit, enough STA, and the ilvl213 topend. It's great, but I would have never dreamed of rolling against a hunter for it, or asking for priority from that hunter. Death's Bite is a bit different, since it's not exactly best-in-slot or anything like that... I would just go with what the raid needs... if they are creeping up in threat, then clearly you need it for the good of the raid. If the DPS warrior is pulling 1700dps... then clearly he needs it more than you ;P
So, with the patch, I started looking at some blood tank specs... This was also posted in my guild forums, so it generalizes to non-dks x.x. I also haven't been following too closely with talent bugs and such, so I may ask a few noob questions.
My concerns: Subversion - I'd really love to get that extra crit bonus but 1. is the threat reduc bugged to apply universally? and 2. where would I get the points?
Death Rune Mastery - Sure I get those turned into death runes, but do I really see myself often using them for other things than disease popping or anni, which already takes those exact runes I'm converting?
Abom's Might - Yeah, it's only 2% str for 2 points, but it's sure nice if I could manage it.
Bloodworms - Are they really good enough healing to merit 3 points? Does their threat feed into mine? Do I get healing threat?
Hysteria - Is it worth chucking a point to get a decent dps boost for someone, given this is a serious tank spec?
Dancing Rune Weapon - Does this damage convert into my threat? Either way, is the damage bonus /and the threat bonus worth it for more RP dump outside of RS and DC?
Unholy points - Here, I'm missing a ton of the basic points for increased disease duration, spell hit, DND bonus, etc. How badly will this harm my tanking? Can it be pulled from somewhere else?
Also, if there's anything blatantly wrong with my gear (aside from the parry gems instead of dodge, yes, I know), pointing out my stupidity is always appreciated.
Thanks for the help! <3
I've also been contemplating a blood spec, but haven't finalized what it should look like. However, I do have some comments on your proposed spec:
1. Bladed Armor >>> Butchery & Scent of Blood. The math was done early in this thread, but particularly for a tank in Frost Presence, there really is no question which is better.
2. I'm not sure Annihilation is worth the three points if you don't have Epidemic. Without Epidemic, you'll be applying diseases every rotation. If you're going to be doing that anyway, you really don't need Annihilation, and (as you pointed out) don't need Death Rune Mastery either. However, I really think you're diminishing your threat if you go that route. Unfortunately, the only way to get both is to drop 2 points from Blood Gorged.
3. Hysteria is an *enormous* DPS boost for your raid. It may not benefit your tanking directly, but for a 1 pt investment, I bet it's worth more to increasing your raids ability to kill bosses than almost any other point you spend.
4. Bloodworms: I'm *really* not sold on the value of these things. When I last used them (admittedly, a while ago) they aggroed mobs I hadn't engaged at a ridiculously long range. Now, if they've fixed this, they may not be dangerous to have on a raid, but with the amount of AoE damage around, I strongly doubt they'll survive enough to be terribly useful.
Anyway, that's my 2c. For what it's worth, here's the spec I'm considering for Blood: 50/14/7 - MMO Champion
Last time I looked at the Tank Spreadsheet it said to use DnD first (which is what I do on threat intensive fights) which normally nets me ~5ktps. I drop DnD out of my rotation and TPS lowers to ~4-4.5k.
Mind you, RNG could always be favoring Rune Strike at any given rotation. :\
So that means that my initial readings are correct, I do generate more threat with DnD. Not that its particually surprising, as I do know it has a greater threat modifier. I just thought the readings I was getting back from the tankcraft spreadsheet was a bit strange.
I know I burn it down every 15 seconds (or so, depending on when the runes pop up) and I have never had any agg problems, single or otherwise. Course, my tanking experience has been a bit light so far too, but I'm hoping that will change soon.
Its nice not having the FPS bug tho. Hopefully they fix that for the rest of you so we can work on optimal rotations without having to worry about bugs. This could be the answer that everyone has been needing concerning threat.
Zerath I take it your 5k threat would continue if you kept it down whenever possible? Or by then are you usually so far ahead you don't have to worry about it?
I've been off tanking as blood in 10man Naxx for the last 3 weeks and been doing fine. (I am for this week speced for DPS if you armory me) Soon I will have to start MTing and I see blood as having a bit of a problem holding AOE aggro from my inexperienced raid group.
Seeing the changes to HB come the patch I think it'll help.
We don't run a regular Enhance Shammy, hence the Icy talons.
I too see a huge boost to DPS from Hysteria, especially when applied to our lead hunter (usually our top DPS) and have a hard time passing it up.
MoB is there, mainly because I worry about the inexperience of our group.
My main worries are having neither Vampiric Blood or UA, there are other worries but those two top it.
I am not going unholy, I have no desire to be unholy. Straight Frost hasn't done much for my enjoyment, so I am trying to find a mid point that will still be effective.
I am still gearing up and I know I need improvments. I am debating [Durable Nerubhide Cape] or putting a 41 stam gem in my chest piece. Even with Titan weave I won't be at 540 defense until I get more upgrades unless I seriously regem.
I have a quick question for Sarth tanks. We were working on +2 the other day, and while the breaths were pretty much a non-issue, his melee after the first drake died was destroying me. The reason for this was that every so often (several times a fight, at least) he'd double-swing me. This happened on every pull all night. 2 hits + a normal swing afterwards was just death every time if not dodged/parried, since I only had ~30k health after the 25% debuff.
I can find no discernible reason for him doing this. It was *NOT* a parryhaste; the combat log was checked numerous times, and half the time I wasn't even attacking (I stop attacking once twilight torment goes up, other than to keep Blade Barrier up.) Does anyone have any sort of input that I'm missing here?
Yup. He hits hard. He gets a buff every time a drake dies increasing his damage AND attack speed. Healers need to be prepared to up the MT heals when the drakes go down. I have very few upgrades left and have pretty much maxed out my gear and he can (seemingly) gib me (still waiting on my >2 week old ticket for the bracers...gg).
2 drakes though is pretty cake, we had 3 priests die to the first void-zone-thing a few weeks back and still smashed him. Just be sure the healers know to keep a closer eye on you after drakes are slain. Our first 3-d kill only had 5 healers.
I had a question about DnD. It was bugged so that ebon plaguebringer buffed it's damage by 30%, yes? When is that 30% calculated? If you started DnD, then IT-PS-Pest, would it then up the damage? or only if DnD was applied after the diseases were?
As unholy, I'm trying to understand if I'll need the new DnD glyph to retain the DnD I'm used to or if, since I usually pestilence -after- DnD, this will be a nice boost.
It's fairly simple to test, but my GF is in town, preventing my even looking at the machine. Grrr.
Originally Posted by Varsar;1042228
MoB is there, mainly because I worry about the inexperience of our group.
I am a JCer and use the [ITEM
Figurine - Monarch Crab[/item] to help with avoidance.
My main worries are having neither Vampiric Blood or UA, there are other worries but those two top it.
I am not going unholy, I have no desire to be unholy. Straight Frost hasn't done much for my enjoyment, so I am trying to find a mid point that will still be effective.
I am still gearing up and I know I need improvments. I am debating [Durable Nerubhide Cape] or putting a 41 stam gem in my chest piece. Even with Titan weave I won't be at 540 defense until I get more upgrades unless I seriously regem.
If I were you, I would stick with the cloak you have and work towards getting the emblem cloak. Your currently over 540 def and you really don't want to go below that. What you could do is get the cheap agi enchant to your cloak (until you get a better one, plus with the cost of titanweave going down come patch). I started OT'ing 25 Naxx with only crafted and rep items and had a lot less hp than you, so i would say you are off to a decent start.
Yup. He hits hard. He gets a buff every time a drake dies increasing his damage AND attack speed. Healers need to be prepared to up the MT heals when the drakes go down. I have very few upgrades left and have pretty much maxed out my gear and he can (seemingly) gib me (still waiting on my >2 week old ticket for the bracers...gg).
2 drakes though is pretty cake, we had 3 priests die to the first void-zone-thing a few weeks back and still smashed him. Just be sure the healers know to keep a closer eye on you after drakes are slain. Our first 3-d kill only had 5 healers.
I had a question about DnD. It was bugged so that ebon plaguebringer buffed it's damage by 30%, yes? When is that 30% calculated? If you started DnD, then IT-PS-Pest, would it then up the damage? or only if DnD was applied after the diseases were?
As unholy, I'm trying to understand if I'll need the new DnD glyph to retain the DnD I'm used to or if, since I usually pestilence -after- DnD, this will be a nice boost.
It's fairly simple to test, but my GF is in town, preventing my even looking at the machine. Grrr.
Re Sarth:
We should have had Sarth+2 by now (not sure if we have the DPS for 3) if not for people weren't magnetically drawn towards standing in every void zone they could find. Sadly I don't have a WWS, but I had a screenshot of a combat log for one of the deaths, and I'm suspecting the double hit is just sct lagging on my part, because it shows three straight melee hits 2 seconds apart each, whereas on screen the first two hits appear on screen together. At least I'm fairly sure that's what's happening.
Not sure about the DnD but, but I can confirm that the damage (and for both Frost Fever and Blood Plague) is calculated per tick. Applying increases the current application's damage immediately.
252 a tick
hit crypt fever
328 a tick
Further down they mention that Crypt Fever's no longer stacking with Ebon Plaguebringer, which makes me sad The loss of the fear glyph means being a bit more careful when tanking 76 mobs at once I guess.
Personally, if the new patch notes are true and DnD is getting +20% dmg from the glyph instead of its fear, I think that is a buff for that spell. +20% dmg =+20% more threat, correct? True, the amount you will get hit will go up, but that is what the healers and avoidence is for. Anything that gives me more threat is win in my book. That extra threat will be very nice for Sarth +3 to help prevent the dps'ers from pulling the elementals or the whelps off me.
Yes, but they are also eliminating the bug where DnD damage was increased by crypt fever. So in many cases we were getting +30% more DnD damage, which is being removed and replaced by the +20% damage from the glyph. This will certainly increase the consistency of the spell's damage, but it also lowers it's maximum. I'd love an answer about whether DnD damage is increased if CF is applied on a mob after DnD is affecting them.
I love being forced to glyph a spell just to weaken the nerf on it.
The notes also state that it will no longer incorrectly be benefitting from Crypt Fever, so if you are Unholy/there is an Unholy DK present it, going by the notes, is going to be doing less damage Glyphed post 3.0.8 than it does now.
And back in the day when absolutely everyone was unholy and people were claiming that DnD was the be-all-end-all to single target threat, yet 'the numbers' were a lot more vague, we now know why that divergence happened =D
Well, I seldom have CF on any mobs I'm tanking because I prefer frost, and the only time ive ever really used DnD a lot is for sarth + (outside of heroics). Yes, it is stupid to have to glyph it to get lessen the nerf on it for unholy tanks. I would personally love to see a glyph for DnD, BB, or HB that increases threat (or in the case of BB and HB, damage would work as well).
I am probably going to drop my OB glyph for the new DnD glyph if it goes live considering most of my tanking role is for aoe tanking.
01/07/09, 3:48 AM
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