Zerath

If I'm tanking for max single target threat with no movement issues (Sarth/Patch/etc) DnD is woven in to my rotation every 15-20 seconds. Our DPS is quite insane so several players ride my TPS constantly so in those situations DnD doesn't stop getting woven in.

 

Crimsonsky

This is interesting, I believe you are the only person I've ever seen to recommend scent for blood. I've never specced into it, so I'm assuming you have some experience with it? Simply put when you read it, it sounds terrible. A 15% chance for 15rp that can only occur once every 20 seconds? Doesn't seem worth the talent investment to me, am I missing something? However, I do believe that Butchery, and maxing Dark Conviction, may work out better. I concur with your point on Blood Tap, but I would like to keep one point in it simply as a "just incase". It may not be much, but should you need it, at the very least you get the threat from the heal x 2 in frost presence.

 

Lumpeh

I understand that everyone is dead set on this whole "parry gib" death thing but has anyone looked over the numbers required compared the gear that is currently out there? The only thread I've seen which even talks about the ability to DW Tank as a Death Knight is located here on the US WoW Forums.

I'm seriously contemplating going DW and was just wondering what the numbers were on requirements to properly DW Tank compared to the gear that was out there.

 

GnomeoverTwo

The whole "Parry Gib" thing is such a joke. In theory sure it's something to think about. But who here has ever received the 5 parried attacks in a row to actually get insta-gibbed? Not me. As for what gear you need... DW tanking is used to gain numbers of stamina, defense, etc. You don't gear for DW tanking - you DW tank to compensate for gear.

 

Tojara

Considering threat really doesn't matter when tanking Sartharion (with 3 drakes up) I typically spec down to scourge strike, while dumping the last points in blood so I can reach veteran of the third war (obviously I have the necessary points in frost as well).

The main reason I do it is because veteran gives me more health (every bit of health counts) and I also get to pick up rune tap. I can see how people may be turned off by the self healing from rune tap and the fact that you trade threat for the talent, however it is very nice on Sartharion. A ~6k instant heal (if I feel it necessary) is simply invaluable to me, especially when the breath happens during a flame wall and healers are on the run.

 

Davia

Is it only Crypt Fever that is buffing DnD damage? Or also Ebon Plaguebringer? The way its written seems to make me think only CF, but it's certainly not clear.

 

raei

I posted above, I tested it and it does.

 

Lerciolas

Ebon Plaguebringer and Crypt Fever. The first is intended, the second is a bug (DnD is magic but not a disease) and will be fixed.

 

frozt

It's really interesting going through all these posts, .

Just wanted to know if the proper way to go for Main Hand / Off Hand is Falling Crusader/Cinderglacier or Falling Crusader/RazorIce .

Thank you!

 

Lerciolas

For tanking maybe double swordbreaking is a better enchant on one handed weapons. If you feel confident with your avoidance level and need more threat, it's FC on MH and razorice if frost or Cinder if unholy on OH. However is far better to buff mitigation with swordbreaking.

 

pindle

Well recommending may be a big word. I was merely recommending taking talents beneficial to more threat as opposed to selfhealing ones, but as discussed this may be a matter of taste. I do agree Scent isn't the best tanking talent but for me, I'd take it over e.g. Rune Tap (also because we hardly every have a prot pally and I have to do without Sanctuary). That aside, Butchery is probably a better choice overall, and so is Dark Conviction. It's not 15% chance every 20 sec to gain 15 RP, it's 15 RP every 25ish seconds on the top of my head since it procs often enough. On 2nd thought, if you keep getting hit by multiple mobs or a fast hitting mobs SoB should actually outperform Butchery in terms of RP gain.

As far as I know all DoT effects are calculated per tick; haven't seen an exception to this myself so far. This is easy to test with an AP on use trinket: apply disease to a target dummy, use trinket after they tick at least once, and the next disease ticks will be higher.

 

dukes

This is how it used to work. The majority (if not all) of DoT's are calculated at application now. This was to stop classes which could apply a lot of dots applying them, using a trinket and then nuking during the duration, effectively getting double use out of the trinket.

Anything like Ebon Plaguebringer/Crypt Fever however, will apply on tick, as it's a debuff rather than a self buff (same applies for spells with the 13% magic buff and the 5% from razorice). If diseases are working as you state (with trinkets/etc affecting them per-tick), then it's likely an oversight rather than a directly intended mechanic.

 

Zzard

+Def stacking to what lvl?

I am sure this question / discussion will be raised after the 3.08 and I can see that certain parts have been picked up in this thread already, but I am interested to hear some thoughts on stacking defense to as high as achievable without gimping.

Some post patch info / reminders / assumptions:

Frost spec with full T7.5 or equivalent (or better, subject to swapping out for certain stats gains with other lvl 213 items)
29k Health unbuffed
Near hit capped
Not bad expertise
25% dodge
23% parry (33% with BB active)
543 def
27k armor
Crafted Destroyer (crappy luck with trash drops)

So after the patch, I could take the new BS Axe (sword?) and that’s +def
The new sigil offers +def
I could gem with +def
I could ench +def

Let’s say we get to 600 def (not too hard), this counteracts the nerf to IB and would bring it back to 50% for 20 secs, I now have 80% armor bonus, I will gain a ton of +parry/dodge/miss (not sure on the diminishing returns numbers here) to be at 30%+ dodge, 40%+ parry with bb up, still have decent health.

That works in theory, but what if we were to push this and super stack +def with JC gems / trinkets and try for 650 +def? How high can we go?

To stack the +def over stam is the main point, but which is more beneficial (I guess if we knew what Ulduar offered then it would make this easier) Or I could just grab some more parry, stam, expertise.

Any thoughts please.

 

Zerath

There's already a DW Tank thread on the forums. Click on Death Knight and you'll find it. There won't be much discussion until patch.

It's not a "joke" - the majority of us that speak about it in 'fear' are against bosses that could effectively 3-shot you which are several in-game right now. But, on the positive side people have ran some numbers and it's not near as bad as we once thought. Also, if you've been reading the DW Thread *and* this thread you'd know we started brushing the insta-gib myth out the door last week or so.

2% Parry to each weapon. I will, however, have a spare Fast OH with Fallen Crusader on it for intense TPS times. My goal is to have DPS MH (slow), Tank OH (Fast) with the ability to switch out if needed. Already I have very few +def gems so my +Def Cap (floor? whatever) is already attainable by this. Figures better to have all your bases covered.

My goal is to go DW Frost Tank at patch and be +Def Cap reliant on gear (w/o weapons) while also lugging around the new +Def sword with Stone Garg on it. That will be set up with a macro (yes, GCD used OMG!) for fights and moments when I'm going to be needing to pop IBF w/extra damage reduction.

Now, the way you're thinking isn't a way you should go. By stacking purely defense/avoidance you're going to threat cap yourself quickly. I'm already noticing ~5-7 people riding my tail when I'm doing 4.5k-5k TPS.

Right now my DKP is starting to get a little bummed because I'm picking up two sets of T7 and two sets of any non-unique item along with *any* tanking item people don't want. The reason for this is to build an avoidance/threat set and a pure stam/def set for your reasoning of extra mitigation. Upon knowing my TPS will be less, though, of course.

We should be pushing close to 40k HP if not higher at patch which will be sex.

 

Zzard

Been watching the figures on various threads, think I will be staying 2H for now though.

Hmmmm RS threat is upto 150% (post patch) now and I dont have that many problems with threat at the moment and the higher % to parry the more I will have RS up plus taking a shed load less damage.

I hit 40K when I pop repelling charge and it is funny to see but really not needed......37k raid buffed is plenty at the moment but I have a sneaky feeling that we may see some fast attacking bosses in Ulduar where higher mitigation will be better, alas as I mentioned, I do not have the figures for diminishing returns in order to work out what something like 650 def would bring ;(

Thanks for your thoughts tho

 

Zerath

Your looking at a small picture, you need to pan out. You think RS being upped in threat means the world nut it doesn't. But going max def and avoidance your hit and expertise is going to fall. A lot. That brings misses which besides flubbs your rotation it also doesn't bring the RP you will need for your idea of back to back rune strikes. If your frost you won't be able FS due to rp starvation and RS eating any spare bit when you do have enough.

 

Suno

All of Zerath's advice is spot on (except I'll likely never test DW... a 2H is just more badass, and I like being parryhasted less than other classes).

Parrygibbing is very real, and while it can be minimized and perhaps affects DK's less than other tanks, it's our responsibility as prudent tanks to reduce this element. Last night on OS-3 I was breathed on, then back2back melee'd near-instantly. My raidbuffed 40k wasn't enough. There's every reason to reduce parryhasting if possible. If the RNG hated you, he could wipe you all night.

There's really no health level that I would consider to be "plenty." RNG is another reason to build rounded stats instead of just stacking avoidance/defense. It looks like you're gemmed appropriately now, I wouldn't advise changing it. Higher avoidance means lower health pools (in the gm/enchant world at least). And the evil RNG can have a party with a tank who ignores stamina for high avoidance. Well-rounded stats ftw, unless you're building around a specific encounter.


Also, I've been playing around with Icicle's VoTW build, and messing with variations of it. I think there's some serious viability there, and I hope someone can throw together some numerical comparisons between "Normal" frost and VoTW Frost.

 

Zerath

Well, for those reasons I will be keeping a 2H in my bag. My goal is to test the TPS potential of DW but I won't take BCB because thats opening more parry hasted. It'll be interesting.

 

Crax

I've been looking at that same comparison, though I've also contemplated the VotTW build with a full 3/3 Guile of Gorefiend and {gasp} only 3/5 in Anticipation.

 

Ilmatar

There's a good reply to VotTW vs Anticipation in the DW tanking thread. Also if you check out the DPS Theorycraft Think Tank thread, the VotTW rating for Talent points vs DPS table is not very good. This obviously negates the Stamina benefits, but it's not worth the ~600-700 hp you will probably gain from it, and the ~8 talent points you have to sink in order to get it.

 

Griefknight

I just went 24/42/5 and I haven't tested it out but I went up 1000HP by getting VotTW and .27% parry. I'll be able to test TPS either tonight or tomorrow night. I also took MoB instead of 1/3 Guile of Gorefiend. I wasn't able to get KM because there is a 50/50 chance that we won't have the 20% haste without me.

 

pindle

I just tested DnD on a dummy with an on use AP trinket; using it while DnD was ticking did not raise the ticks, however the next DnD I cast (with the trinket still running) was obviously higher. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I stand corrected

 

Griefknight

So I went in 10man Naxx as 24/42/5 but on Grand Widow I noticed I was generating less threat. I'm not sure of the exact number difference but it may have been because I only had totems and MoTW. I usually have all the other buffs you would expect a tank to have, a lock in my guild almost pulled her off me actually.

Overall I really liked 24/42/5 except that I'm frost without Guile of Gorefiend, so it somewhat hurts. I think that MoB and VotTW compensates for not having Tundra Stalker though. I'm also going to try going with the KM spec if I have my 32/39 friend to give the haste tomorrow night. I didn't think he was going to make it tonight so I didn't spec for KM.

 

Asmadai

Looks like this is legit. Bone Shield glyph now adds 2 charges on the PTR. (I'm also guessing this is new news, as I never heard this before until just tonight.) Helps close that gap between Frost and Unholy after the patch a bit more.

Oddly enough the new tanking 2hder's have vanished - those who had the recipies have had them yanked from their books. I hope this is just to fix that whole 'axe being listed as a sword' bug.

 

motif

"The two-handed Blacksmithing tanking weapons are not going to be implemented.

Indeed, we did not want to stick DKs with these weapons forever, nor did we want to start itemizing 2H tanking weapons forever. DKs were designed to tank with 2H dps weapons.

The new sigil and runeforge enchant should help players with low defense. "

-Ghostcrawler