DK Tanking Discussion - Page 7

Rejju · 11/21/08, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by bucknasty

I agree that all of the talents you mention are lackluster. I personally prefer to max desecration and put my extra 4 points into bladed armor (threat) or magic suppression (mitigation) like this - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft .

However more taunts and strength is inarguably a good thing and I haven't crunched the numbers well enough to refute popular opinion on these boards.

Honestly, threat shouldn't be an issue 90% of the time. I'd go for mitigation before anything, especially stepping into naxx with out epics.

Suno · 11/21/08, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rejju

I personally feel that Morbidity is better for Unholy Death Knights, as they do not get Howling Blast. As a frost tank, I find myself using DnD only at the start of AoE pulls and never again, it just isn't worth the Rune commitment.

As a frost tank, I loved Morbidity because it's so useful chain-pulling trash packs and on encounters like gluth (zombie-kiting) and phase one gothic. I found however that subversion and single-target threat needed the points more, so when chainpulling raids I had to forego the morbidity luxury.

Originally Posted by Rejju

Honestly, threat shouldn't be an issue 90% of the time. I'd go for mitigation before anything, especially stepping into naxx with out epics.

This is true early on, as a lot of plate gear you wear from leveling is still DPS gear. However, as tanking gear increases and your raid's DPS climbs higher, threat becomes a larger concern. Aside from bladed armor and the STR on your gear, there's little about a frost tank's TPS that will increase at a comparable pace. Towards the end of beta, threat was my primary concern for frost tank analysis. It's the one large drawback to not having your threat scaled due to incoming damage like the other 3 tanks.

Groggan · 11/21/08, 3:06 PM

Updated the first post with my own edit of bucknasty's post. I've edited it to be more complete/in-line with the discussion so far here in this thread, and will continue to edit/update/add to it as we come to conclusions. I'll also be cleaning it up/rewording things in it a bunch next week since I will have lots of time while on vacation, but won't have access to WoW itself :P.

Rejju · 11/21/08, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by bucknasty

This is true early on, as a lot of plate gear you wear from leveling is still DPS gear. However, as tanking gear increases and your raid's DPS climbs higher, threat becomes a larger concern. Aside from bladed armor and the STR on your gear, there's little about a frost tank's TPS that will increase at a comparable pace. Towards the end of beta, threat was my primary concern for frost tank analysis. It's the one large drawback to not having your threat scaled due to incoming damage like the other 3 tanks.

When we are talking magic suppression or bladed armor, mitigation is better right now, I agree. I have heard that towards the end of naxx unholy gets better at tanking. Then again, frost DKs aren't able to get magic suppression anyway.

A Man In Black · 11/21/08, 3:44 PM

Icy Talons/Improved Icy Talons don't stack with Windfury. I'm assuming that even if you're going to run 10 mans, you're almost certainly going to have SOME kind of shaman, and WF is by far the best air totem. 6 talent points isn't worth a 5% passive haste and a maybe-4%-higher windfury totem (if your shaman isn't enhancement), not in a tank build.

Well, isn't that assumption the core of this? If you don't have a shaman, let along any enhancement shaman, you gain a large raid DPS boost if you have even a couple melee, at the cost of negligible mitigation. If you skip the Icy Talons chain, you have to take a bunch of filler or DPS talents of very limited use as a tank.

Looking at your spec, you've got filler in Endless Winter, Merciless Combat, and Frost Aura. A DPS talent, a situational/PVP talent, and a situational mitigation talent (bearing in mind that any shaman or paladin can do what this does, 100% better, most of the time).

While the raw cost to get Imp. Icy Talons is greater for a frost DK tank than for an enhancement shaman, the opportunity cost is low due to the fact that it doesn't stop you from getting all of the tanking talents in the middle of the frost tree. There's no reason not to take the talents if you're going full frost, unless you always raid with an enhancement shaman within range of the melee at all times (or if you're the only frost DK for Malygos). You don't lose any mitigation from doing so, and you barely lose any threat from doing so.

Rejju · 11/21/08, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by A Man In Black

Well, isn't that assumption the core of this? If you don't have a shaman, let along any enhancement shaman, you gain a large raid DPS boost if you have even a couple melee, at the cost of negligible mitigation. If you skip the Icy Talons chain, you have to take a bunch of filler or DPS talents of very limited use as a tank.

Looking at your spec, you've got filler in Endless Winter, Merciless Combat, and Frost Aura. A DPS talent, a situational/PVP talent, and a situational mitigation talent (bearing in mind that any shaman or paladin can do what this does, 100% better, most of the time).

While the raw cost to get Imp. Icy Talons is greater for a frost DK tank than for an enhancement shaman, the opportunity cost is low due to the fact that it doesn't stop you from getting all of the tanking talents in the middle of the frost tree. There's no reason not to take the talents if you're going full frost, unless you always raid with an enhancement shaman within range of the melee at all times (or if you're the only frost DK for Malygos). You don't lose any mitigation from doing so, and you barely lose any threat from doing so.

Agreed. The ice talon chain of talents is a must for a frost DK, if nothing else, for tanking 5 mans. the static 5% haste for you is nice too.

Crax · 11/21/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rejju

Agreed. The ice talon chain of talents is a must for a frost DK, if nothing else, for tanking 5 mans. the static 5% haste for you is nice too.

Haste certainly is never a bad thing, but if you've been following the DPS discussions, it's debatable whether Haste or Armor Penetration is the worst stat. Philosophically, I would never spec specifically for tanking 5 mans, and in a raiding environment, as long as you have at least 2 Shaman, you should have Windfury up all the time. As a Tank, at least Deathchill (snap aggro), Merciless Combat, and Endless Winter have some redeeming qualities.

Admittedly, you do have to put 1 "filler" point somewhere: either Icy Reach, Runic Power Master, Killing Machine, or Icy Touch. My personal choice there is probably either RPM (I tend to accumulate RP during trash) or IR simply because I find the other two entirely useless as single point investments and not worth the cost of a full 5-6 point investment.

Feorthas · 11/21/08, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

Updated the first post with my own edit of bucknasty's post. I've edited it to be more complete/in-line with the discussion so far here in this thread, and will continue to edit/update/add to it as we come to conclusions. I'll also be cleaning it up/rewording things in it a bunch next week since I will have lots of time while on vacation, but won't have access to WoW itself :P.

It's probably safe to advise against taking Killing Machine entirely if it's a straight up 50% chance proc for 5/5--for 2H DKs, it's only a little more than a 1% DPS increase in the most optimal situations (read: not happening in real-world tanking) and it's probably not a full 5% increase for a DW tank either (which is what it should be near).

Now, if it's a higher proceate with a hidden cooldown, all bets are off, but I honestly don't have a solid way of detecting that (theory would suggest "autoattack with procwatch on for a long tiime, record procrate. Then do many many individual tests, waiting 1+ minutes between, and record their procrates (stopping the test upon one proc). Compare." but that would take basically a day :-/).

aarstar · 11/21/08, 4:56 PM

This is the Unholy tanking build that I am currently using on my DK (at level 76, so I'm still filling in a few talents to complete the build).

5/11/55

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Obviously, at this point, we know to get 5/5/5 for mitigation.

In Frost, I grab Lichborne for additional mitigation -- the points in Icy Reach are filler of sorts but allow for an easier time pulling.

In Unholy, I skip over the DPS-oriented auto-attack talents (BCB and Necrosis). Additionally, I skip over what I consider the gimmick talents of Corpse Explosion and Gargoyle and anything Ghoul-related that do not have additional effects. Talents like On a Pale Horse and Unholy Aura don't seem to have much of an influence on tanking (the stun resist may be arguable). I'm still on the fence about Desecration and Dirge. Desecration for 5 talent points seems like too large and investment for the 5% increase in damage and the slow has been meaningless so far since mobs rarely change targets from me, and I haven't had any Runic Power issues at the moment, so Dirge seems unnecessary even discounting the potential of being buffed with Blessing of Sanctuary.

A Man In Black · 11/21/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Crax

Philosophically, I would never spec specifically for tanking 5 mans, and in a raiding environment, as long as you have at least 2 Shaman, you should have Windfury up all the time. As a Tank, at least Deathchill (snap aggro), Merciless Combat, and Endless Winter have some redeeming qualities.

Assuming you have two shamans, at least one of which isn't dropping Wrath of Air (or some utility totem) and is in range of the melee more often than the tank is.

The reason I like IIT so much, even given WF, is that the tank is almost always well-placed for ideal uptime. An enhancement shaman is going to be equally well-placed, other shamans will have inferior buffs with inferior uptime.

Talents like On a Pale Horse and Unholy Aura don't seem to have much of an influence on tanking (the stun resist may be arguable).

Unholy Aura is huge for any fight that involves any movement at all (e.g. all of them except Patchwerk). It's twice as good as a foot enchant, allows people to replace their speed enchants with DPS enchants, helps improve survivability in general, and helps melee DPS uptime significantly.

There is no reason for any unholy DK to skip Unholy Aura.

Suno · 11/21/08, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by aarstar

I haven't had any Runic Power issues at the moment, so Dirge seems unnecessary even discounting the potential of being buffed with Blessing of Sanctuary.

It's nigh impossible to say that a DK doesn't have an RP problem. You can never have too much. You often don't have enough. Dirge and Chill of the Grave are both huge for their respective trees -especially- as a tank, but regardless of role. Rune strike is so strong that you should make every effort to get every autoswing "RSed". If you're doing that, you won't have a whole lot of RP to dump into UB, FS, DC or even an unglyphed IB. The importance of RP generation is quite comparable to energy generation on a rogue. If it can be increased, it must be.

If you're still swimming in wasted RP (you won't be), glyph Rune Strike for increased cost and damage.

aarstar · 11/21/08, 6:08 PM

I just haven't run into threat problem in 5 man dungeons. I guess it's not safe to assume Blessing of Sanctuary, but if you have that buff won't your RP generation be through the roof?

Suno · 11/21/08, 6:23 PM

Bosanc gets us right where we want to be. We can Rune Strike nearly every swing and we can UB/DC/FS at every available GCD. Always use your RP before your rune abilities in single-target situations. However, getting off your DnD/Pestilence/HB abilities in multi-target encounters can take precedence. In those cases you may get RP capped.

A Man In Black · 11/21/08, 6:29 PM

The softest place in an unholy DK's spec seems to be in tier 3 and 4 and most of 5, where nothing but Shadow of Death and Dirge offer any mitigation or major utility.

Every unholy DK spec will start with this as a core. These are the basic low-tier mitigation and utility talents. (Arguably, Imp. Icy Touch goes in this core as well.) From here, we need filler points to get to Shadow of Death, filler points until Dirge, and filler points to get to tier six, where we start taking pretty much everything but Desecration and Night of the Dead.

So that's...

Two points of group one:
Vicious Strikes
Unholy Command
Ravenous Dead
Outbreak
Necrosis
Corpse Explosion

(Taking Shadow of Death here.)

Four points of the above or group two:
Blood Caked Blade
On a Pale Horse

(Taking 2/2 Dirge here.)

Three points of the above or group three:
Summon Gargoyle
Impurity

Once you've got something that looks like this (with whatever tier 3-5 filler you like), we've got eight points to get high-tier Unholy stuff we skipped like a ghoul or Desecration, toys from Blood and Frost, or more mid-tier Unholy filler.

So, assuming everyone agrees that Dirge and the high Unholy talents are indispensable, Unholy DK speccing seems to be two discussions: where do we best spend our nine points of mid-tier filler, and what do we do with the remaining eight points once we've gotten the high-tier Unholy talents?

Neddie · 11/21/08, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by okkita

2) It's too early to limit the discussion to Frost only. If we limit it so early, we're literally killing experimentation with the other specs.. and more importantly, we're maiming our chances that Blizzard puts all specs up to the same tanking strength. Which, mind you, despite what you'd like, IS Blizzard's stated philosophy for the DKs. And one I agree with wholeheartedly.

"Are you frost?"

I've already had people whisper me that question as a way of saying "are you able to tank something", i.e. "are you prot?"

All 3 trees have tanking talents in them, and they all have tanking talents that are very deep inside them. Frost has some obvious passive ones, but please don't discount unholy and blood already.

Crax · 11/22/08, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by A Man In Black

The softest place in an unholy DK's spec seems to be in tier 3 and 4 and most of 5, where nothing but Shadow of Death and Dirge offer any mitigation or major utility.

Every unholy DK spec will start with this as a core. These are the basic low-tier mitigation and utility talents. (Arguably, Imp. Icy Touch goes in this core as well.) From here, we need filler points to get to Shadow of Death, filler points until Dirge, and filler points to get to tier six, where we start taking pretty much everything but Desecration and Night of the Dead.

So that's...

Two points of group one:
Vicious Strikes
Unholy Command
Ravenous Dead
Outbreak
Necrosis
Corpse Explosion

(Taking Shadow of Death here.)

Four points of the above or group two:
Blood Caked Blade
On a Pale Horse

(Taking 2/2 Dirge here.)

Three points of the above or group three:
Summon Gargoyle
Impurity

Once you've got something that looks like this (with whatever tier 3-5 filler you like), we've got eight points to get high-tier Unholy stuff we skipped like a ghoul or Desecration, toys from Blood and Frost, or more mid-tier Unholy filler.

So, assuming everyone agrees that Dirge and the high Unholy talents are indispensable, Unholy DK speccing seems to be two discussions: where do we best spend our nine points of mid-tier filler, and what do we do with the remaining eight points once we've gotten the high-tier Unholy talents?

Generally, I agree with your analysis except for three points:

1. I don't think Vicious Strikes is discretionary. It's impact on PS, and more importantly SS, is just too large for an Unholy Tank. I actually see Morbidity as *more* discretionary than Vicious Strikes.
2. I don't see Magic Suppression and AMZ as required talents. Magic Suppression is of marginal usefulness, and AMZ just takes too many points for too little return.
3. From the DPS thread, Impurity is fairly clearly the top of the "threat" fillers you can take, so again, I don't see it as truly "optional".

Asari · 11/22/08, 3:52 AM

Originally Posted by Neddie

"Are you frost?"

I've already had people whisper me that question as a way of saying "are you able to tank something", i.e. "are you prot?"

All 3 trees have tanking talents in them, and they all have tanking talents that are very deep inside them. Frost has some obvious passive ones, but please don't discount unholy and blood already.

That aside... when it comes to non-heroic 5 mans, YOUR SPEC DOES NOT MATTER.

I not only tank, but I CHAIN PULL as DPS blood. I have zero tanking talents. What I do have is a near full set of tank gear that I've picked up from quests.

The sad fact is that most of our tanking comes from short cooldown skills. Talents get us a bit of extra mitigation, but unless you plan to main tank it probably isn't going to break the bank. We can still serve as OTs even in full DPS specs.

As far as MT discussion though, I sadly don't see blood serving this role. I can solo elites just fine, but tanking a boss that hits me for 6k, or even 2k every few seconds vastly outstrips my primary mitigation that comes from healing. Bloodworms doesn't seem to scale very well at all. Blood tap is nice, but even full talents its on a 30 second timer. The one nice thing we get is a shorter AMS cooldown by like 12 seconds, but given that it only lasts for 5 that means it might be up for one spell when you really need it.

As far as required talents.. experience to me seems to agree that Epidemic is pretty much a must have. The biggest problem I've had as a DK so far is needing diseases on my targets to really do damage. Pestilence with such a short duration on the diseases means that I spend most of my fight spamming PS and IT over my other skills.

• CureFC · 11/22/08, 4:59 AM

I did some research on Butchery and found this thread:

Deathknight Death Knight threat values - TankSpot

It indicates that Runic Power gains from abilities produce no threat, nor do passive gains from Butchery. Butchery RP gains from kills (killing blows) produce 500 threat. I think this relegates Butchery's only use to be preserving RP between pulls, and I doubt it is worth 2 points in any serious tanking build.

Shirley · 11/22/08, 7:34 AM

Originally Posted by CureFC

Necrosis vs BCB: Neither Necrosis or BCB are going to be that great in a tank build because you're going to replace a lot of your white attacks with yellow Rune Strikes. This will get worse as your gear improves and your avoidance goes up. If you're looking for filler or want to take them anyways (OT/dps spec maybe) then I believe you are correct that Necrosis is superior to BCB.

Concerning BCB... from what I've gathered, BCB is an extra attack that can be parried (had it happen occasionally while soloing) and therefore opens up another opportunity for parry hastes. Based on this I wouldn't recommend BCB for tanking purposes. It's great for DPS specs, but the fact that BCB can be parried makes it kind of "meh" for me to consider it a worthwhile tanking/TPS talent. Necrosis on the other hand is just too beautiful to pass up. Even more so if Necrosis damage gets boosted by Ebon Plague. Specced Frost ATM, so I can't check... but I'm curious about this, since Ebon Plague should be increasing all magic damage by 13%.

Kragg · 11/22/08, 10:01 AM

This spec is what I've been looking at. I made a few changes after reading through this thread. Dropping killing machine and picking up blade armor mostly. I kept Icy Talons even though it will be mostly useless in a raid environment. I just can't find any better talents to fill in with those points.

A question regarding Blood of the North. If your blood runes are all turned to death runes, would they be considered on cooldown for purposes of Blade Barrier? Or would they only be on cooldown once the death runes were used?

faight · 11/22/08, 10:47 AM

I just want to state, for the record, that Necrosis procs off of Rune Strike. I can provide combat logs and screenshots if necessary, but I just double checked it by going outside of New Agamand, Icy Touch'ing a mob to get 20 RP, hitting escape, waiting for a parry, and then looking at the damage (1584 Rune Strike, 206 Necrosis). Also this is obviously affected by other things as the Necrosis hit for more than 10% of my Rune Strike's damage. I assume Ebon Plaguebringer and Rage of Rivendare are contributing, but I'm not sure on the exact math.

Currently using this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft until I get more points to distribute with more levels (planning on finishing Anticipation and getting Bladed Armor).

BCB can be parried, I don't recommend it. BCB can also proc Necrosis, as is stated in the DPS thread. Also, BCB is constricted to your weapon's damage, whereas Necrosis scales with the damage your attack actually does; I don't think either can crit, but if my 4k+ Rune Strike crits at 73 are any evidence I think that Necrosis is going to be an awesome talent.

Edit: Also Necrosis is magic damage. Goes well with the whole not being dodged/blocked/parried.

Edit 2: Also Blood Presence might have increased the damaged on Necrosis too. In Frost Presence it's still doing more damage than just 10% of my Rune Strike anyways. Can't wait to try this out in an actual instance.

zokauskas · 11/22/08, 11:24 AM

Why isn't Unbreakable Armor Glyph listed? 5% parry > 10% str no?

Natural20 · 11/22/08, 12:11 PM

In terms of being a hybrid DPS/OT spec. Is blood viable for tanking I dunno, trash in 25 mans? The fact is that as a DK I expect to mainly be DPS and leaving main tanking to our warriors/druids/pallies and only switching in to the tank role when that elusive third tank is needed for an encounter. I'm thinking stuff like Kalecgos here or for bigger trash pulls. The spec does have flaws I will cede but does that render it completely useless for a tanking role such as this?

Hisaki · 11/22/08, 12:58 PM

By no stretch of the term can I consider Unholy Command a vital tanking talent, just to reference previous statements of this. It's approximately the same usefulness you can expect from reducing the Taunt cooldown, and the points would be better spent in Morbidity giving you better AoE tanking potential than on allowing you to pull a mob near you every now and again.

Zerath · 11/22/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Natural20

The spec does have flaws I will cede but does that render it completely useless for a tanking role such as this?

No, it does not render it completely useless for snap OTing. As per discussions here it's been agreed upon that Blood could OT 10/25man when need be. But, understand that if you're going to be OTing a [boss] - get your tank gear set up for that. And you may even want to respec to take Blade Barrier and Anticipation for that added 15% avoidance. (I'm trying to be nice to your healers.) ^_^

You could even possibly re-glyph for those situations if it's going to be a multiple boss OT night for you (Glyph of IT, Unbreakable Armor, etc.) - just to give you that edge.