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12/16/08, 5:19 PM
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#1036
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Smolderthorn
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Originally Posted by Zurai
Unfaltering Knight might as well say "equip: +53 defense rating". It's a 100% proc chance for a 30 second buff with no internal cooldown.
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Except in those boss fights where the raid is stunned / incapacitated / unable to attack while a cutscene plays out (I'm thinking Illidan right before the last phase, etc).
Because it isn't truly 100% uptime it might be dangerous to be below the crit-immune cap without this sigil. On the other hand, if you have a less-than-1% chance to be crit before the sigil, and the sigil gives you a 99% uptime, the odds of the boss bugging out in some way are probably higher than you getting killed by a crit as a tank.
(Yesterday Malygos decided to melee the raid in phase 2 instead of just flying around and doing deep breaths).
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12/16/08, 5:45 PM
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#1037
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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It also lasts for 30secs and can be applied at range, so the situations where you'd get beaten with it not up are really not that plentiful, so yeah, in my opinion, a pretty good sigil. Sure beats my +90dmg to blood strikes glyph anyway ^^. It's also more free gems, 54def rating is like 4def gems, so 96stamina, or a variable amount of expertise dodge and stamina depending on how you want to gem.
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12/16/08, 6:14 PM
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#1038
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Glass Joe
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Hey guys, been reading elitist jerk forums for a while not but hadn't felt the need to post until I started tanking as a DK for a while. I am basically tanking on my DK with a 9/11/51 spec. I love it and I have tanked almost all the way through naxx 10.
My question is is Bladed Armor really all that good? I see a lot of people trying to put it in their tank specs. I understand the whole AP adds to threat and all that but a lot of the posts I have seem are doing calculations based off of what there armor is at when they are in Frost presence. As far as I can tell Bladed Armor doesn't account for the added armor when switching to Frost presence. So that 24k armor you are doing your math with is probably more like 14k armor.
Maybe this has been mentioned some where else in this thread, I have been trying to keep up but there are quite a lot of posts  .
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12/16/08, 6:21 PM
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#1039
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Priest
Crushridge (EU)
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Hello, my first post here in elitist jerks, so I hope I will give some help in the discussion here.
I'm using a frost speccd DK, and maximing my TPS/Equipment is my aim. So I started reading this thread.
I'v got caught by your last discussion and tried out in-game if using 2 BS is better than using 1 OB.
Here are my Recount Charts in a 6 min. fight against a Dummy (obviously this chart is faked in the melee/frost strike)
Where in the left corner of the image, is me using OBLI when the 2 B runes become D runes and in the right corner is me using BS even when the 2 B runes are D runes.
The test went a little bad, because in the second 6 minutes (the right chart) I had an high amount of parry/dodge.
I think using OB with the 2 D runes is the solution because of:
1) The high risk of f****g up your cycle (i.e. parry, dodge, miss)
2) The high risk of not refreshing blade barrier in time (when i was hitting the dummie, i managed to see the BR buff down a couple of time... too much, I think)
3) The low dps cycle... yeah, teorically 2 BS makes more DMG than 1 OB, but you are not counting parry/dodge/miss that are moltiplied by 2 when you do the second cycle (that is, IMO, a little bit forced and "harder" to do)
I have to appoint a thing, that the second cycle is more "free", you can change your cycle in any way, like hitting with 1 BS, Blood Tapping and be able to OB again or making HB).
Sorry for my rust english
See you
Originally Posted by Tesal22
Hey guys, been reading elitist jerk forums for a while not but hadn't felt the need to post until I started tanking as a DK for a while. I am basically tanking on my DK with a 9/11/51 spec. I love it and I have tanked almost all the way through naxx 10.
My question is is Bladed Armor really all that good? I see a lot of people trying to put it in their tank specs. I understand the whole AP adds to threat and all that but a lot of the posts I have seem are doing calculations based off of what there armor is at when they are in Frost presence. As far as I can tell Bladed Armor doesn't account for the added armor when switching to Frost presence. So that 24k armor you are doing your math with is probably more like 14k armor.
Maybe this has been mentioned some where else in this thread, I have been trying to keep up but there are quite a lot of posts  .
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nope, I can assure you can translate blader armor (when tanking) in a: "Increase your atk power by 800, roughly".
Maybe you switched to frost presence and didn't wait the game refresh time, in fact the game doesn't refresh istantly the bladed armor buff (except when you pop up UA).
Last edited by Harion : 12/16/08 at 6:29 PM.
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12/16/08, 6:21 PM
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#1040
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Death Knight
Sargeras
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Leaving aside for the moment whether or not it is actually worth it, where would you put the points from BotN? You still need to get further down the tree for Guile of Gorefiend and Frost Strike.
Back to Death runes. Assuming we decide that DnD should be dropped whenever it's off CD, Death runes could also be spent on it. I've been in situations before having spent both my frost runes (say, refreshing IT and popping UA) and Death runes allowed me to continue uninterrupted.
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12/16/08, 6:27 PM
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#1041
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Glass Joe
Undead Death Knight
Kul Tiras
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Originally Posted by Tesal22
As far as I can tell Bladed Armor doesn't account for the added armor when switching to Frost presence. So that 24k armor you are doing your math with is probably more like 14k armor.
Maybe this has been mentioned some where else in this thread, I have been trying to keep up but there are quite a lot of posts  .
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Bladed armor checks and updates about every 30 secs. Switch to Frost Pres and give it a few to update
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12/16/08, 6:33 PM
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#1042
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Priest
Crushridge (EU)
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I want to ask you a thing.
How much TPS do you do? In a normal fight?
With and Without DND, obviously.
Because i watched the cycle for DnD Spam: DnD - PS - IT - BS - OBLI (SS) - BS - DnD
and calculating the number of spells: (6) multiplied by GCD (1.5) = 9 secs
DnD takes 15 seconds to refresh, so what are you doing in the remaining 4 spell slot?
Spamming DC?
In 9 seconds, if you have windfury or icy talons in raid, you swinged like 4 time (more or less) and rune strike proccd 2-3 times if you have a good avoidance, so you don't have so much RP.
Whare are you doing in that void time?
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12/16/08, 6:49 PM
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#1043
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Death Knight
Blackrock
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Originally Posted by Raedix
My current top-end weapon damage in tank gear is 1500, let's use that to keep things simple.
Blood Strike: 50% Weapon Damage + 191 + 2*95.5 (disease) = 750 + 191 + 191 = 1132
Obliterate: 100% Weapon Damage + 292 + 2*146 (disease) = 1500 + 292 + 292 = 2084
Obviously, without talents, and ignoring the packed GCD, 2xBS is more damage than 1xOB. Now, what talents do we have... GoG, which gives 45% crit damage bonus to both; Rime, which adds 15% crit percentage to Obliterate; and BotN, which adds 15% damage bonus to Blood Strike. Adding them up, if you did get all three talents, and you did get two Death Runes up (and you had enough GCDs)... the best thing to do with them... would be two Blood Strikes. Yes, if you glyphed Obliterate, the Obliterate would be worth it. Slightly. It would scale faster, as well. But is it worth 5 talent points and a Major Glyph slot? I guess that's up to you. My answer is still no. Death Runes are for decreasing the number of GCDs needed, if you don't need fewer GCDs, you don't need Death Runes.
If you need flexibility, we have Empower Rune Weapon and Blood Tap. I just can't see needing more than those, and grip, and taunt...
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Your theory is close, but not correct; one Oblit is better than two Blood Strikes. Let us stick with your numbers to continue to keep life simple, so...
Since we're pitting these abilities against eachother, and talking about deep frost talents, I'm going to continue to keep things simple and assume a deep frost spec; maybe something similar to mine! (see profile--I'd link but my only 'net access until Thursday is my iPhone) You would do well to note that I have all 3 of these talents. I'm also glyphed for Obliterate because, if I wasn't, I'd be putting annihalation to waste somewhat; note that blood strike does not have a comparable glyph. You may also chose to note that I have stuff like Hungering Cold in my spec; let me tell you how nice it is to be able to pop that to spread FF when I'm Short on GCDs and time--both for dps and tanking for snap AoE (and yes, I also glyphed Icy Touch so I have more RP than I know what to so with).
Aaaaanyway, that takes us to:
Oblit: ~2500
BS: ~1325
BS is still higher after +15% damage vs +20% damage you say, and you are correct; however, you have forgotten that obliterate will crit 15% more often and even with a 30%-after-talents critrate on blood strike, there remains only a 9% chance that BOTH will crit. Whereas Oblit still has a 45% chance of doing double damage.... In half the time.
Additionally, GCDs are more precious than you seem to realize, as is flexibility. Most Frost rotations are pretty tightly GCD limited and, while they all have time to 'dump' RP and procs, there really aren't any more GCDs to spare on swapping one Oblit for two BSes. Not to mention, tanks usually want some flex with their GCDs so they can react to a changing situation; having no spare GCDs means that your maximum threat generation must stop and finally get rolling again as runes become available, which can also be unnacceptable.
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12/16/08, 7:27 PM
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#1044
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Death Knight
Sargeras
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Originally Posted by Harion
Hello, my first post here in elitist jerks, so I hope I will give some help in the discussion here.
I'm using a frost speccd DK, and maximing my TPS/Equipment is my aim. So I started reading this thread.
I'v got caught by your last discussion and tried out in-game if using 2 BS is better than using 1 OB.
Here are my Recount Charts in a 6 min. fight against a Dummy (obviously this chart is faked in the melee/frost strike)
Where in the left corner of the image, is me using OBLI when the 2 B runes become D runes and in the right corner is me using BS even when the 2 B runes are D runes.
The test went a little bad, because in the second 6 minutes (the right chart) I had an high amount of parry/dodge.
I think using OB with the 2 D runes is the solution because of:
1) The high risk of f****g up your cycle (i.e. parry, dodge, miss)
2) The high risk of not refreshing blade barrier in time (when i was hitting the dummie, i managed to see the BR buff down a couple of time... too much, I think)
3) The low dps cycle... yeah, teorically 2 BS makes more DMG than 1 OB, but you are not counting parry/dodge/miss that are moltiplied by 2 when you do the second cycle (that is, IMO, a little bit forced and "harder" to do)
I have to appoint a thing, that the second cycle is more "free", you can change your cycle in any way, like hitting with 1 BS, Blood Tapping and be able to OB again or making HB).
Sorry for my rust english
See you
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Thanks, I found this very helpful. Think you could run something similar on a DnD spam rotation?
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12/16/08, 7:49 PM
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#1045
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Piston Honda
Worgen Death Knight
Aerie Peak
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Originally Posted by Harion
I want to ask you a thing.
How much TPS do you do? In a normal fight?
With and Without DND, obviously.
Because i watched the cycle for DnD Spam: DnD - PS - IT - BS - OBLI (SS) - BS - DnD
and calculating the number of spells: (6) multiplied by GCD (1.5) = 9 secs
DnD takes 15 seconds to refresh, so what are you doing in the remaining 4 spell slot?
Spamming DC?
In 9 seconds, if you have windfury or icy talons in raid, you swinged like 4 time (more or less) and rune strike proccd 2-3 times if you have a good avoidance, so you don't have so much RP.
Whare are you doing in that void time?
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It doesn't look like a "normal" rotation since of the unequal cooldown DnD has.
Mine changes per situation but normally close to: DnD-> IT -> PS -> BS -> SS -> BS -> DnD. Maybe 2 seconds wait. I just tested it. After the second DnD goes down, you start over IT ->PS ->BS -> SS.etc.
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12/16/08, 10:23 PM
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#1046
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Echo Isles
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Originally Posted by Flamingcloud
Your math is wrong then, because with that gearset you should be very close to the armor cap with non-glyphed ua. I will be well over 30000 armor after the patch if I wear double armor ring. Regardless there is 0 fights in the entire game at the moment where the danger comes from physical damage so why bother. If you don't think you will have inspiration very much then maybe you could get the glyph, but I still think it is pointless.
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If you don't mind, this subject is really interesting for me, so I'd like to know where my math went wrong:
[Helm of Vital Protection] - 1867 armor
[Flowing Cloak of Command] - 140 BASE armor
[Breastplate of Tormented Rage] - 2298 armor
[Kyzoc's Ground Stompers] - 1580 armor
[Callous-Hearted Gauntlets] - 1436 armor
[Legplates of Sovereignty] - 2054 armor
[Pauldrons of Unnatural Death] - 1723 armor
[Ablative Chitin Girdle] - 1293 armor
[Bracers of Dalaran's Parapets] - 1005 armor
13396 total base armor
[Flowing Cloak of Command] - 364 bonus armor
[Keystone Great-Ring] - 490 bonus armor
[Iceforged Battle Ring] - 476 bonus armor
[Amulet of Autopsy] - 350 bonus armor
[Defender's Code] - 850 bonus armor
[Offering of Sacrifice] - 550 bonus armor
3080 total bonus armor
Armor modifiers:
1.15 Toughness
1.80 Frost Presence
1.02 Armor Metagem
2.1114 final armor multiplier
Final armor = (base armor * armor multiplier) + bonus armor
Final armor = (13396 * 2.1114) + 3080
Final armor = 31364
Damage reduction (courtesy of WoWWiki) = Armor / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))
Damage reduction = 31364 / (31364 + (467.5 * 83 - 22167.5))
Damage reduction = 65.34%
WoWWiki also notes that the explicit armor cap for 75% DR is 49905 armor, and this falls short by about 18540 armor.
* If I throw in a Glyphed Unbreakable Armor for an additional 1.4 multiplier, the final multiplier increases to 2.95596 and the final armor increases to 42678, which is 71.95% DR (7226 armor short of cap).
* If I throw in a Glyphed UA and Inspiration for an additional 1.25 multiplier, the final multiplier increases to 3.69495 and the final armor increases to 52577, which is 75.97% DR (2672 armor over the cap).
As far as possible mistakes, it's possible that UA/Inspiration includes bonus armor, since it doesn't explicitly state "armor from items" like Bear Form/Frost Presence do, but I find that unlikely/inconsistent.
Corrections are very welcome 
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12/17/08, 12:16 AM
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#1047
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Prinsesa
Armor stuff
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Edit: Meh I suck. I don't think Inspiration affects bonus armor however, it's not in the list, but I've seen someone say the bonus armor isn't affected by anything anymore, including buffs.
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12/17/08, 12:20 AM
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#1048
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Prinsesa
If you don't mind, this subject is really interesting for me, so I'd like to know where my math went wrong:
As far as possible mistakes, it's possible that UA/Inspiration includes bonus armor, since it doesn't explicitly state "armor from items" like Bear Form/Frost Presence do, but I find that unlikely/inconsistent.
Corrections are very welcome 
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I think it is extremely likely that UA/Inspiration affect bonus armor, don't see why they wouldn't.
You are missing armor from agility(probably around 1000 armor), around 3000 armor from devotion aura, and if the fight is less than 4 minutes long you can gain another 3500 armor from 2x indestructible potion, another 800 armor from elixir(as 800armor+45agi is much better than the flask)... If you wore that item set you would way over the armor cap without the UA glyph.
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12/17/08, 3:57 AM
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#1049
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Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Eonar (EU)
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delete
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12/17/08, 7:25 AM
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#1050
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Death Knight
Lightning's Blade
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Originally Posted by Rhum
Anyone given any tought about the Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight?
I think this is a rather poor idea for a defensive item as defense is something you are supposed to be able to rely on. This sigil does not help much in making def cap easier to reach and linking it as a chance to a skill I use once in two rune cycles is even worse for uptime. Now if this would be changed to "Your Icy Touch also increases... for 20s" for example, I'd see some real use.
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I've been dreaming a lot about this sigil.
53 defense plus the 23 defense / 2% rune enchant... Right now with my blood runes activated, I'm 65+% avoidance. Through in my trinket and i was over 70% avoidance raid buffed. Sure, through me another 6% avoidance... look at my armory, I have significant spots to increase my my gear. I'm thinking with trinkets popped, I can probably get to 80% avoidance with this new sigil.
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