Is this a new change, or something I've missed? i'm 99% sure that I haven't seen this behaviour in game. Maybe it's my buff mod not updating this correctly, but can you confirm this is definately functioning as described?
I can confirm. It isn't new, but it was not like that even late in the beta.
Is this a new change, or something I've missed? i'm 99% sure that I haven't seen this behaviour in game. Maybe it's my buff mod not updating this correctly, but can you confirm this is definately functioning as described?
Semi-hilariously, it's even refreshed by actions such as mining, as Pyros pointed out far earlier in this thread.
I'll continue reviewing my formula, but it looks like at all realistic crit rates, fully talented 2H weapon specialization outperforms Subversion (i.e., the damage increase from 2pts in 2H is greater than the damage increase from 3pts in Subversion).
Edit: Even accounting for 245% crit Obliterates and +15% to BS from Blood of the North, 2H spec is still showing about a 1% damage increase over Sub (both fully talented).
Last edited by Mindaika : 01/13/09 at 12:21 PM.
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
I'll continue reviewing my formula, but it looks like at all realistic crit rates, fully talented 2H weapon specialization outperforms Subversion (i.e., the damage increase from 2pts in 2H is greater than the damage increase from 3pts in Subversion).
Edit: Even accounting for 245% crit Obliterates and +15% to BS from Blood of the North, 2H spec is still showing about a 1% damage increase over Sub (both fully talented).
My numbers put Subversion at ~67 DPS and 2H spec at ~30 DPS in my dps setup so ymmv but subversion would need to weaken significantly through scaling (down) to drop below 2H spec.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Honestly, with your gear setup, 3k is about right. Your rotation should be IT-PS-BS-BS-OB//OB-OB-OB-->start over. FS should be woven in when you have the RP after RS. I've noticed myself at 3k on some fights recently but it's the lack of hits landing (you'll get much more +Hit with epics) - so, that's some thing else to think about.
Currently, you're fine. What's limiting you is your rotation and gear.
I believe the Frost DPS thread proved (and it was discussed here a few pages back), that a rotation of IT-OB-OB-BS (using Rune Tap to start) was superior threat wise. This has the added advantage of allowing you to drop Epidemic from your spec, freeing up 2 points for more threat (likely Dark Conviction ... but choose to taste). Another advantage of this rotation, is it's ideal for AoE as well once 3.0.8 drops: just adjust to IT-Pest-HB-HB.
Now, I don't always use Rune Tap to start this rotation, but I have started shifting into it on a "second time through." For example, I'll start with DND - IT - PS - BS the first rotation, then on to the "normal" rotation.
Your results, of course, may vary, but I've noticed a sizable increase in my TPS since I started using this rotation. Admittedly, I did so after switching to a VotTW Frost build, so that probably accounts for part of the increase as well.
My numbers put Subversion at ~67 DPS and 2H spec at ~30 DPS in my dps setup so ymmv but subversion would need to weaken significantly through scaling (down) to drop below 2H spec.
What did you use to calculate that, if you don't mind my asking? I'm trying to make a generalized version of my formula to post (I used my actual numbers for my and varied the crit), but I'd like to see how our calcs vary.
Actually, poking around a bit, it seems like Sub actually scales WORSE with gear (as crit rate improves).
Consider first the extreme situation where you have 0% crit from gear, and do no damage other than BS and obliterate (the theoretical best-case for subversion). In this case, I calculate 2HSpec to be 8.7% worse than Sub.
However, the relative gains from sub, decrease as crit increases. At 9% crit, sub is a 100% increase to the BS/OB crit rate; at 90%, it's only a 10% increase. 2H is a gain across the board at all levels.
Also, based on some recalcs, it looks like Sub does outperform 2H in cases where the portion of total damage provided by BS + Oblit is more that ~40% of the total damage (at 40% Oblit crit and 15% BS crit [actual]).
That all being said, I'm finding less than 1% variance in either direction in all cases. Plus, Sub is 3pts vs. 2H being only 2pts. Depending on the situation, Blood Tap + 2H may be a better use of points for a tanking situation.
Last edited by Mindaika : 01/13/09 at 1:20 PM.
Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)
- The 2h hit cap is 8%, both for autoattacks and specials. 8% melee hit is ~262 hit rating, which is approximately 10% spell hit (as the conversions are different).
- The spell hit cap is 17%. If you have Virulence and either Misery or Improved Faerie Fire, this is 11%. Considering that you should be aiming for 8% hit for melee, you'll end up with 1% spell miss with virulence and buffs, or 7% spell miss without virulence and buffs.
- Expertise removes 0.25% dodge and parry from a bosses avoidance per point. Each point takes ~8.2 expertise. The approximate values are 6.25% dodge and 15% parry that you need to overcome. This makes expertise approximately twice as valuable as hit up to the point at which you are capping dodge avoidance (26 expertise).
This makes hit very valuable up until 8% melee hit (262 hit rating), and expertise very valuable up until 6.25% reduction (26 expertise).
And this
Originally Posted by Crax
Thank you, Dukes. Somebody needed to provide clarity on that - things were getting out of hand there.
With respect to *which* is more important, it's sort of an irrelevant discussion since you *really* want to soft cap both. However, since this *is* EJ and we're all about trying to give the most relevant information for complete Theorycrafting optimization, we'll examine it anyway. First, let's look at which abilities are affected by which:
Hit Only:
Rune Strike
Frost Strike
Howling Blast
Icy Touch
Death Coil
Unholy Blight
Death & Decay
Pestilence
Blood Boil
Dark Command
(Please let me know if I missed anything... I very well may have)
Now, the relative value of each of those abilities to your threat generation is highly dependent upon your spec, and even partially on your raid makeup. For instance, having a pally with BoSc or an appropriately specced Resto druid will dramatically shift the proportional values of auto-attack and Rune Strike. However, it's probably best to take a look at a WWS of one of your recent raids get an idea of what you are most reliant on. I'd strongly suggest you do this analysis for yourself on a regular basis.
In the interest of giving some general advice, I think we can see some trends that may be relevant with respect to the *role* you serve as a tank:
1. For multi-target tanking, Hit is likely more important than Expertise.
2. For single-target tanking, unless you are using DND as a standard part of your rotation, Expertise is likely more important than Hit.
Again, you *really* want both, but if you have to choose, look at the role you are serving and choose accordingly.
are extremely valuable posts. Why? Not because of their accuracy (which is important), but because they are succinct, to the point, and don't assume the reader has some tidbit of previous knowlege.
As a long time EJ lurker, I have been overwhelmed by the forked threads on similar-but-not-same topics, not to mention the volume of "discussion" posts. If I were to make a recommendation, it would be to re-create the FAQ post with this type of information (above) ONLY. If someone asks a question already answered, delete the question and point them to the answer (or just tell them to read the much-shortened thread). If someone asks an unanswered question, leave the question until an answer is posted and then delete the question.
The ultimate goal being a thread of meaty nuggets of useful information that is uncluttered with discusssion, (often repetitive) questions, and other things that make it hard to find an answer.
Not everyone can parse hundreds of posts every time they visit the site and if you want to improve the overall value of the EJ membership, equipping people to contribute effectively means quickly getting them informed. General threads are fine for back-and-forth discourse, but anything this valuable should be pulled out so the next reader doesn't have to sort through 1700 posts to get to it.
Just my recommendation - I'm very appreciative of all the theorycrafting, but overwhelmed at what I have to sort through to get to it.
After running some numbers i agree with you, but to be honest i though that's totally not true.
With my stats (~1300-1500 weapon dmg, 3k ap, 10% crit, and lets say i'm hit/exp capped - of course i'm not) 1 point in 2h spec would be 3,5%-4% dps increase and above 4% threat increase, and 1/3 Subversion about 1%
Note that I said a 2.9% damage increase on Obliterate and Blood Strike per talent point, not a 2.9% damage increase in general. Also, Blood Strike actually gets a slightly higher average damage boost than the 2.9% Obliterate gets (around 3.4% at 20% crit), since it is not getting the 15% crit from Rime. For example say your single target damage was divided like this:
Subversion would increase the 25% Obliterate damage by 2.9% and the 8% Blood Strike damage by 3.4% for a total of 0.99% damage per talent point from Subversion
2H Weapon Spec would increase 79% of your damage by 2%, or 1.58% damage per talent point from 2H weapon spec
Even if you increase the damage coming from Obliterate, 2H Weapon Spec is still always ahead in any realistic damage distribution.
Originally Posted by Feorthas
My numbers put Subversion at ~67 DPS and 2H spec at ~30 DPS in my dps setup so ymmv but subversion would need to weaken significantly through scaling (down) to drop below 2H spec.
I too would be interested in knowing how you get your numbers. Are you counting in everything 2H weapon spec increases?
That should be the role of the OP. I've considered remaking this thread as I read it repeatedly 5 days a week (I don't waste my weekend playtime!), and contribute regularly. If the OP was updating and including information like you have highlighted, we'd be far better off.
If there is a consensus about remaking this thread, I offer to keep a current OP with updates shortly after changes go live. Either way, we do need to find a better way to make relevant information more visible and accessible.
Regarding numbers, I'm pulling them from my Frost-centric DPS sheet using my DPS stats and spec but flagging that I am in front of the mob rather than behind (Hitcapped, 2.25% Expertise).
It's not going to be 100% accurate--example, I'm not accurately modeling Frost Aura's effects on my dps set, let alone my tank set--but I can tweak numbers up and down to look at the scaling, which is what we care about. And, yes, I'm representing both in a mathematically correct manner; 2H spec increases your weapon dps by 2/4% (which contributes to white & yellow strikes) and subversion goes into the appropriate crits. Armor DR, miss/dodge/parry, etc are all taken into account.
Admittedly, the last numbers I put up were from behind. Here are some more from in front:
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/13/09 at 2:31 PM.
Reason: iPhone spaces are the wrong size for code blocks :(
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
That should be the role of the OP. I've considered remaking this thread as I read it repeatedly 5 days a week (I don't waste my weekend playtime!), and contribute regularly. If the OP was updating and including information like you have highlighted, we'd be far better off.
If there is a consensus about remaking this thread, I offer to keep a current OP with updates shortly after changes go live. Either way, we do need to find a better way to make relevant information more visible and accessible.
I agree, although I think there is valuable info here unrelated to just tanking which is why my suggestion of migrating to the FAQ thread. I would be willing to assist if I could, as I will be parsing a lot of this for our guild forum anyhow.
Regarding numbers, I'm pulling them from my Frost-centric DPS sheet using my DPS stats and spec but flagging that I am in front of the mob rather than behind (Hitcapped, 2.25% Expertise).
It's not going to be 100% accurate--example, I'm not accurately modeling Frost Aura's effects on my dps set, let alone my tank set--but I can tweak numbers up and down to look at the scaling, which is what we care about. And, yes, I'm representing both in a mathematically correct manner; 2H spec increases your weapon dps by 2/4% (which contributes to white & yellow strikes) and subversion goes into the appropriate crits. Armor DR, miss/dodge/parry, etc are all taken into account.
Admittedly, the last numbers I put up were from behind. Here are some more from in front:
That still does not explain why your values for 2H weapon spec are so low. If you get 13 dps from 2H weapon spec, you would need to be doing only 650 combined dps from all your weapon attacks combined, which is clearly impossible. Most likely your dps sheet is mistakenly thinking 2H weapon spec only affects your white damage.
That still does not explain why your values for 2H weapon spec are so low. If you get 13 dps from 2H weapon spec, you would need to be doing only 650 combined dps from all your weapon attacks combined, which is clearly impossible. Most likely your dps sheet is mistakenly thinking 2H weapon spec only affects your white damage.
Not necessarily, for example, if he's using the Frost rotation that I mentioned earlier on this page (IT/OB/OB/BS), the damage distribution could look very different. Of those 4 rune abilities, one isn't affected by either, and the other 3 are affected by both. Assuming GoG, that means 4.35% improvement in those abilities per point from Subversion, and 2% improvement in those abilities per point from 2H spec. So, the 2% improvement in non-rune abilities needs to make up for the fact that Subversion is more than twice as good, per point, for OB/BS.
So, how do we complete the comparison? Oddly, this is similar to the hit/expertise debate a few pages back. Thankfully, this one is a *bit* simpler. To further simplify the comparison, I'm going to assume a Frost specced tank using the rotation above. Below is a list of the abilities affected by each talent:
Both
Blood Strike
Obliterate
2H Spec Only
auto-attack
Rune Strike
Frost Strike
Now, I thought I could eliminate armor from the equation, but then I remembered that Frost Strike bypasses armor. This complicates things greatly, just like the presence or lack of Blessing of Sanc or a Resto Druid healing you does. So rather than try to give a definitive answer, we're going to have to give a relative answer that you can use when analyzing your own DPS to determine which is "better" for you.
Using my numbers from the top, we can compare them to see when the talents are equal (point for point):
4.35 (O + B) = 2.0 (O + B + A + R + F) ---- I hope you can infer which abilities the letters stand for.
Using elementary school math, we can see that 1 point of Subversion equals 1 point of 2H spec when the combination of your Obliterate & Blood Strike damage is 117.5% of the combination of your auto-attacks, Rune Strikes and Frost Strikes. If your OB/BS damage is a higher relative percentage than that, then Subversion is better; if it's lower, then 2H spec is better. Keep in mind that this is only for this spec/rotation.
That still does not explain why your values for 2H weapon spec are so low. If you get 13 dps from 2H weapon spec, you would need to be doing only 650 combined dps from all your weapon attacks combined, which is clearly impossible. Most likely your dps sheet is mistakenly thinking 2H weapon spec only affects your white damage.
Bah. I hate making mistakes.
Yes, I was applying 2H spec on the wrong cell and the Autoattack numbers were changing but not the skills (that's what I get for revamping the sheet completely).
And yes, that totally changed the value of 2H spec for the better; fully raid buffed and sundered/ffd is worth 100 dps (50pt).
Well, at least the sheet is more accurate now :-/.
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/13/09 at 4:40 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Using elementary school math, we can see that 1 point of Subversion equals 1 point of 2H spec when the combination of your Obliterate & Blood Strike damage is 117.5% of the combination of your auto-attacks, Rune Strikes and Frost Strikes. If your OB/BS damage is a higher relative percentage than that, then Subversion is better; if it's lower, then 2H spec is better. Keep in mind that this is only for this spec/rotation.
Thank you very much! Now can we sticky this in the first post so we save future visitors the headache of filtering through this gargantuan thread?
That should work for any rotation by the way. If you use Plague Strike, just add that into the "not-OB-or-BS" %. This is a WWS for our last raid. Thaddius OT/DPSing in tank gear, Sapphiron DPSing in makeshift DPS gear, Kel'Thuzad as OT in full tank gear. Our first Sarth + 2 as MT. Check my armory for my spec and gear. 13/51/7. PS-IT-OB-BS-BS||OB-OB-OB. That's 4 OBs per rotation. 2-3 FS per rotation. OB + BS % is not even close to PS + FS + RS + autos.
After reading through the forums about dk tanking, there is still one talent that I am up in the air about and would like others opinions. on Acclimation. How much of a heal could this talent be. With my build 13/50/5 has 3 pts in the air that I am looking to use in Acclimation or Morbidity. Which do you guys think would be the most useful for raid tanking?
After reading through the forums about dk tanking, there is still one talent that I am up in the air about and would like others opinions. on Acclimation. How much of a heal could this talent be. With my build 13/50/5 has 3 pts in the air that I am looking to use in Acclimation or Morbidity. Which do you guys think would be the most useful for raid tanking?
Morbidity, by far, but it's also bugged for some people on huge AE pulls, so some people, myself included, skip it. Acclimatation isn't really good in current raid encounters, unless for some reason you're tanking sapphiron and dieing to something, somehow. If it proced on the raid, or more often, or longer, maybe it'd be useful on other encounters, but really not that many encounters when it will even reach the maximum stack.
I'm not sure if this belongs in this thread or in the simple questions thread, so apologies if it's out of place.
When I'm playing as Frost, I try to use the IT - OB - OB - BS rotation with pleasing results. However, I find that it's a very strict rotation, and if I make a mistake or need to use a rune for something else (normally UA when Blood Tap isn't available) then I have a hard time recovering back into the usual rotation, and end up with my rune cooldowns out of sync.
As Unholy it wasn't an issue, since the BB / FU / FU runes are always matched into pairs, so you just have one spare rune in that rotation. How do you typically handle this for Frost?
Seems my post was either buried behind other questions or possibly ignored but just incase it was buried I'd like to repost this and see if I could get an answer from the community.
BUT...I feel like the napkin math I've done is wrong when deciding if
VotTW + Subversion + 2hspec + Dark Conviction
is Greater than
GoG + Tundra Stalker + Epedemic + Morbidity
.
Which would be Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I understand the benefits of lower CD of D&D, longer disease ticks for smoother rotations & 10% frost from TS and GoG's crit damage boost, but the only real tanking items seem to be GoG and TS...aren't these 2 talents at least matched if not surpassed by the talents in the first build?
All of the extra threat gen from 2h, sub, and DConv...the 6% stam, str, and expertise(which I can use all of it) seem to be more useful than the utility items from the second spec.
As far as Min/Maxing can anyone with the theorycrafting math tell me if I'm just seeing this incorrectly?
BUT...I feel like the napkin math I've done is wrong when deciding if
VotTW + Subversion + 2hspec + Dark Conviction
is Greater than
GoG + Tundra Stalker + Epedemic + Morbidity
For me Morbidity is good for 5ppl or when raiding 10ppl with warrior tank (pretty sucky aoe tanking), in frost more ITs = more Rimes and i prefer shorter diseases, when you picking up epidemic and after basic rotation you are waiting 4-5 seconds for runes then in my opinion you should drop Epidemic.
And about VotTW frost build i was running some numbers and in every way Tundra Stalker is better for tps generation than VotTW, but VotTW, scales better.
ATM i'm sitting at VotTW Frost, it's a custom build, but trust me, you want GoG.
After 3.0.8 i'm changing Blood of the North+Deathchill for Killing Machine, i got pretty high tps in this, high mitigation and avoidance
Note that Abnomination's Might+ Butchery is for testing and for my group (10ppl, we dont have enh shaman), for now i think Tundra Stalker will be more effective (even 3/5 or 4/5).
After further consideration, I don't expect I'll stick with a VoTW build, though I'll be testing it for sure. We've lost a large portion of our burst mitigation and, for that reason, maxing GoG will be something I favor heavily. Perhaps more important is the KM buff, and it's favoritism to tanks with low crit rates. The new KM is a good reason NOT to pick up dark conviction, and then subsequently VoTW. Not to mention, the crits gained by the new KM are enhanced greatly by GoG and Tundra Stalker. I consider the new VoTW frost and the new unholy together in terms of effectiveness (absolutely viable), but with a deep frost build having considerable superiority to both.
Your thought process is mirroring mine. I will be testing VOTW/Unholy vs Deep Frost to see the results.
I am rather under the impression that the threads in the main forums are intended to be discussion and discovery of new information. Once something has been nailed down as correct (or at least becomes the current belief) then it should be written up and added to the appropriate TTT article.
Please don't write Frost Aura when you mean Frost Presence. It seems people in general have trouble separating them but people theorycrafting DK issues certainly should not.
Reading this thread, it seems like people are starting to use DnD less and less, although this may only be the case for frost tanks with howling blast available for AoE threat.
I play as an unholy tank, and I find myself casting DnD as soon as the cooldown finishes, even in single target boss fights. In fact, after getting some advice from the forums I even ditched reaping, as I was pretty much ending up with 1 death rune after DnD which would be spent on blood strike anyway.
DnD is pretty much our only skill that provides extra threat(+rune strike post 3.08), but on the other hand it does cause me to let 1 or 2 runes sit there waiting for the others to pop up. Would I be gimping my threat by doing this? Would it be better to use a more dps-style rotation with reaping, using SS whenever possible and dropping DnD only at the start of the encounter, if at all? (assuming single target)
Morbidity, by far, but it's also bugged for some people on huge AE pulls, so some people, myself included, skip it. Acclimatation isn't really good in current raid encounters, unless for some reason you're tanking sapphiron and dieing to something, somehow. If it proced on the raid, or more often, or longer, maybe it'd be useful on other encounters, but really not that many encounters when it will even reach the maximum stack.
It seemed to work very well, but I didn't do much large pack aoe. I did 3-4 mob pulls and would usually use an IT->PS->Pest->HB->BB Rotation on the pull. It seemed to do very good aoe threat from the start. With this said I think it would do just as good on large pulls. Would this make it more benifical to switch to a build with Epidemic + 1 (maybe in hungering cold) instead of Morbidity.
01/13/09, 11:43 AM
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