Hello everyone. I haven’t been able to find any information about this yet. I was discussing Defense capping with my Warrior buddy the other night, and when he learned that Frigid Dreadplate gives miss %, he said that it made my Defense cap lower than other classes. I’ll admit I’m relatively new to tanking mechanics, and I’m not sure I understand this and wanted to confirm it.



I have a small understanding of the hit table that mobs work from, and how crits, etc can be “pushed off”, but it was my understanding that for crit immunity, the only way to achieve it was through the 5.6% reduction from a high enough Defense skill. Does miss work differently than dodge/parry in terms of reaching the point where you’ve pushed crits off the table?



Thanks!

Ok, I need a little help understanding...

Windfury doesn't stack with Imp Icy, I got that much. But From my personal experience with frost (73 DK, frost spec), I found that the full 25% reduction to weapon speed was quite nice. That took those slow 3.6 2h weapons, and bought them down quite a bit. Now with trying to get as many Rune Strikes as possible, wouldn't a shorter swing time be good? I know about the old trick of instant / next melee stacking, but I always find myself at some point in a long fight that little bit shy of having a blood rune to stack BS / RS. I know I am still trying to get my rotation fluid, I'm not near perfect yet.

Frost 10 / 54 / 7

Thats what I am working towards to fulfill a OT / DPS w/ gear change role for my guild. Any suggestions would be great, as I have learned a lot when I was playing my rogue, and I respect the communities opinions and work they do on this site

Your friend is wrong and you're right A boss have 5.6% chance to crit on you, and only insane amounts of avoidance can push crits off the table - if it can't hit you it can't crit you (as in, the only thing on the attack table would be avoidance). But that point of avoidance is not reachable in any reliable long term solution, if at all. Defense will however convert the crits into normal hits, and that is what you need

In short, the def cap is the same for all classes in the game excluding talents that modify defense or reduce crit directly.

Here is the build I came up with for unholy tanking. I still think bone shield + the naturally high avoidance death knights have make unholy the tanking spec of choice, but that is just my opinion.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Some key points I want to make:
-Bladed armor for tanking specs is one of the highest dps per point talents, especially for something so low in the tree. A tank with 20k armor (which is very low) gets 550 AP, or a net gain of 110 AP per point. Since AP is one of the only stats that actually increases all our damage (especially in unholy where much of our damage is dots) increasing it is a very good start for dps (read: threat) increases.

-I didn't take rune tap because 10% health for me is too little to make a big difference while tanking. Rune tap isn't good unless its full talented, and an unholy build simply doesn't have points to put into a fully talented rune tap and filler points to get to improved rune tap.

-I took improved icy touch because I am assuming that I won't have someone thunderclapping for me. This talent is completely dependent on raid makeup and whether you have another tank/dps putting up the better slow. However, for 3 talent points it is quite a lot of damage reduction so better safe than sorry I say.

-You can argue that icy reach is good for flexibility, but I don't find many times when that extra 10 yards will make or break a fight.

-I don't believe tanks will get much use out of desecration. The number of fights where you stand still usually make us a small proportion of the fight, and requiring a PS every 12 seconds to keep it up is quite limiting on rotations, especially during AOE. Lastly, and this can not be understated, the thing is big and ugly. If any boss in the future had subtle ground queues that inform positioning, having a giant circle of black soot obscuring it isn't helping any.

-I took magic suppression/amz because it reduces damage taken, which alone makes it better than the alternatives in blood/frost which are all dps talents. AMZ is simply another Oshit cooldown for DK's, and the more the merrier so they say. Even if it only absorbs 1 or 2 magical attacks, having it vs having 5% more threat is a no brainer to me.

-Impurity and necrosis are both dps talents that I basically sacrified for magic suppression/AMZ. I don't really see a big deal in not maxing either of these talents as they are pretty low dps/talent point.

-I took improved unholy aura because moving faster is good. Period. Don't take it if you don't like it. It does allow you to get more stam on your boots as well, but that's minor.

-No need for a ghoul or gargoyle while tanking. Taking them for the dpsing if you are an offtank though is perfectly reasonable (gargoyle moreso than ghoul imo).

-The rest of the points are pretty uncontroversial.

-I'm not sure if reaping is necessary. Those points could go into impurity which would be nice. It depends on the BS vs SS debate.

Out of curiosity what is everyone's AoE rotation? I'm currently doing:

IT > PS > Pest > BB > Blood Tap > DND > UB

Blood Tap immediately activates the Blood Rune and turns it in to a Death Rune, even if it was just used allowing you to DND. I'm finding this the best way to start an AoE pack. After this I usually start using my Blood Runes to BB again, and Frost/Unholy to either Death Strike or Scourge Strike, depending on how well the healer is doing. When DND is back up I recast, and I usually don't DC as I'm pouring most of my RP in to Rune Strike. I generally pop IBF when Bone Shield dies, and then after IBF my Bone Shield should be ready to go again assuming chainpulling. I try to never overlap the two in an AoE situation as I'm not sure how the reduction is applied (is it 90% on those hits, or 50% then 40% off of the remaining, or what) and I figure having 40% then 50% then 40% reduction on attacks for upwards of 45~ seconds (assuming 15-17 seconds on Bone shield, then 12 on IBF, then another 15-17 on the second shield) is enough for a couple mobs to die, reducing potential incoming damage.

Just curious what every one else is doing in 5-mans right now, since that's all I'm running.

13/53/5 Death Knight Frost Tank

This is what I've come up with. Most of the time in our raids that we ran pre-WotLK our Shaman was in the back as Restoration as Raid healer while the Priest(s) or Druid(s) took care of main healing the tank. It wasn't until the Instance Nerf that we really started doing things like Windfury Totems. So for the melee groups up front I think that the entire line to Imp. Icy Talons is really good as a raid buff.

I think I hit most of our core Frost Talents. I did some tests in beta and it also functions ok as a Melee DPS build.

Hungering Cold is something I've debated for awhile. In instances so FAR I'm not really hurting for Runic Power, so firing off DnD, IT, PS, Pest, Blood Tap, HungCld, HB isn't usually a problem for me after an initial pull to warm up.

A few things real quick. First I am putting my vote in that Unholy Command isn't a worth while tanking talent. Not only shouldn't you be needing to use Death Grip more then once on a pull; but as I recall it isn't a true taunt (rather it only forces the mob to attack you for 3sec before returning to highest on aggro).

Second thing I wanted to bring up is Ravenous Dead.
-For the 3 points you spend in that talent you could gain more AP from 1pt in bladed armor (unless you have just tons of strength and very low armor) and a simple parry gem would give you back any avoidence lost by not taking Ravenous Dead. I would advise against taking this talent in almost every circomstance for a tanking DK.

-Shadow of Death, could be worth taking if you need to put in 1 more talent point to move down the tree. I say this because it's only 1pt for 2% strength and stamina. Nothing great, but arguably the best place to dump on 1pt in the early tiers.

-Also with AMZ vs Desecration, I think it comes down to if you find yourself needing mitigation or help with threat. The 5% damage boost is nice for increased damage and thus increased threat. But AMZ helps on the other side of the coin. So I think as gear gets better or if you find yourself with group makeup that lends a nice bit of magic resistance, then Desecration might be with way to go.

I'll post my unholy build a bit later, gotta get back to leveling.

I think that is a pretty good build. I will miss Two Handed Weapon Spec and Bladed Armor but I agree about Lichborne -- combined with IBF and (glyphed) Bone Shield, you can live a very long sequential period of time. Glyph for Death and Decay as well and you'll be a formidable AoE machine, and aware DK DPS can also help heal you.

I think the largest disagreements you will get relate to no Magic Suppression/AMZ; Lichborne does nothing to help prevent damage from magic-rich environments. However I feel Magic Suppression is just slightly too expensive to take, and AMZ just slightly not attractive enough.

So I've pretty much decided to go with this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

But I'm currently sitting with three points I don't know how to use. My options are:

Butchery: 2 RP/5
Two-Hand specialization: 4% more damage
Gargoyle: extra DPS.
Dark Conviction: Possible 3% more crit
Ghoul: Permanent pet
Ravenous Dead: 3% str doesn't seem worth it for 3 points, no permanent pet if I get all 3 points.
Night of the Dead: Always have pet available if I want to Ghoul/Death Pact. Doesn't require permanent pet if I'm just using it as a sacrificial potion.
Blood Tap: yeah, not so great when not maxxed out.

I'm really not quite sure what to take. Butchery seems like a good idea, but 2-hand specialization gives me more damage on pretty much all strikes/etc. Dark Conviction would aid in damage/dot damage (Wandering Plague) as I've noticed that tanking gear doesn't provide as much crit as DPS gear. The ghoul and Gargoyle would be purely DPS buffs as their threat doesn't contribute to me (unless I'm mistaken), and the healing potential of Blood Tap or Night of the Dead seem more like PVP talents and in a tanking situation I could just Death Strike instead of Scourge Strike and get a huge chunk of healing anyways.

I'm drawing a blank as to the best use of my last points.

I think one thing that's being overlooked with desecration is the slowing effect. Assuming that the mobs you're fighting aren't immune to snares, it gives you a little extra time to get agro back in the unlikely event that a ranged DPS manages to pull. (For instance healing too early, a zomg crit on something you aren't directly hitting, etc)

Of course in an ideal raid situation these things wont happen, but in pugs... yeah.

From my browsing of log files in 25 man Naxxramas I cannot see any evidence of boss parry hasting. Is parry-haste still in affect on bosses in WotLK?

Here is the relevent lines I'm seeing:
Interestingly Cann's first attack on Grobbulus was parried and Grobbulus' second attack landed exactly 2 seconds after his first.

Everything I read from Tankspot to here to wowwiki says that bosses can parry thrash with some exceptions and this is an excellent reason to stack expertise. But I was just eaten out in guild for suggesting that bosses are still affected by parry hasting.

To me the biggest downside of getting Lichborne is losing Bladed Armor, which is an awesome talent for threat generation. However the points spent in Black Ice are not at all wasted. Black Ice affects damage from Icy Touch, Frost Fever and roughly half of Wandering Plague, which makes up close to 13-15% of my total damage. This makes Black Ice a 0.8%-0.9% damage increase per talent point, though it is of course less useful for single target situations.

While it may not be as effective as alternative talents in blood, the talent should definitely not be counted as useless even though it doesn't affect shadow damage anymore, and the 2 points needed for Lichborne are well spent. As I'm still questing and doing a lot of 5-mans, I haven't decided to pick up Lichborne yet, but I might end up picking it later on.


I've switched to using Death and Decay quite early in most pulls while tanking heroics. I'll typically use it as soon as I can be sure of hitting all the mobs in the pull. Often this means the first few ticks of DnD are not affected by Blood Plague buffs except on the primary target, but the quick aoe threat generation allows for full aoe dps right from the start. Pestilence by itself doesn't generate all that much aoe threat, so you're left with very little until DnD starts ticking if you go the normal PS+IT+pestilence route.

Starting with a PS+IT+Pestilence also has the annoying tendency to be heavily affected by parried and misses. If you get a few misses on the plague strike or icy touch, you spend a lot of time not generating any significant aoe aggro. At that time any healing or even minor aoe will pull aggro from mobs. Using an early Death and Decay also lets you use a 2nd death and decay quite often in bigger pulls. If I'm charging in to a group of mobs I'll typically drop a DnD right at the start while running to them, and PS+IT+Pestilence after I reach them. If I'm pulling the mobs to me, I'll typically death grip and PS+IT one, and drop a DnD when the other mobs reach me doing a pestilence immediately afterwards.

It wouldn't surprise me, if they have taken it out. That mechanic was/is very unpreditable.

If they've taken it out, wouldn't it turn into a huge change in our gearing system? Expertise would become purely a TPS stat rather than a strong survivability one.

And DW tanking would become viable because its main liability has been removed. Interesting possibilities come up if this change is real, so this should probably be looked into more.

Hello fellow tanks,

I was wondering something about frost tank (that probably apply to impie's one too, but I never tested yet so dunno).

Does the talent Blood of the north, who turn blood rune into death rune, is really good for us? is it not even bad for us?

Let me explain, I guess we all agree that we want to have blade barrier up as much as possible, right? for that we need to use our blood rune as soon as they are available, meaning using some 1 rune skill (cause if we want to use them with a 2 rune skill, we will have to wait for the second to activate). And if we do that, must of the time, the death rune would actually be used by Blood strike, pestilence or blood boil, making them useless to be death rather than blood. I dont think I never used a death rune to activate icy Touch or Plague strike (because of the rotation).

So if I am right, what's the point of taking this talent? If not, what I am missing?


Sorry if as been already covered but I didnt find it.



Feanorr


PS: oh another question, does the Frigid Dreadplate bonus and the elf racial's one are listed into our stats? if yes under dodge?

I agree that magic suppression is a little too expensive. On the surface, the 5% less magic damage is nice, but you really have to give up too much other good stuff. However, I do have a few other fundamental disagreements with Shadow's build (albeit, I have only tanked lower 70 instances at this point). And I'll throw my hat into the "as it stands AMZ is not nearly useful enough" ring.

The build I'm at right now with some points left to distribute is: Unholy Tanking 5/11/51. The remaining points are, in my mind, to be distributed between Bladed Armor or Wandering Plague (or both).

Key differences:
1) Moving points from Ravenous Dead to Outbreak: Ravenous Dead seems to give a relatively small tanking increase for its point value. I'm not sure if this will change enough over gear progression, but at least with Naxx gear for AoE purposes outbreak does a great deal to increase damage from two skills that are very useful to AoE tanking. I'd take the 30% damage increase over multiple targets over 3% str increase. For one on one tanking, I know I'm sacrificing a small amount of mitigation and threat, but it's a trade-off for multi target utility.
2) Took the two points out from On a Pale Horse. I'm of the belief that in a pve setting some kind of stun/fear reduction % is nice to have but unreliable. For the 1 time you do get it, how many other times will you not have it? Those points are better placed in Bladed Armor
3) Moved two points from Icy Reach to Black Ice. As has been stated, black ice gives more of a benefit in increasing icy touch and frost fever damage, and for unholy range isn't going to be much of an issue except for on the pull.
4) One point in wandering plague (for now): How big of an increase in damage do you get from one point to three points in wandering plague? Is it a big increase compared to if those points were spent in bladed armor? This is where I'm really unsure about with the spec I posted above, but at least at this point I still have four points to move around.

Side note question: So people tend to be in agreement that Necrosis is a really good investment even for 2H tanking?

I hope I can squeeze in a question here. I play a DPS Blood specced Deathknight. I've gotten a group together for 10-mans, but we were unable to find more than one tank, so I opted to take on the Tank #2 role. That's fine with me, as I just came from playing a Sunwell paladin tank, so I have good understanding of tanking mechanics and what have you.

My question is, since I won't be the ... "main" tank for our 10 man, would it still be in my best interest to respec to frost or unholy to be a second tank for our 10 mans (Which I have no problem with)? Or will the cookie cutter DPS blood spec with tanking gear be sufficient and not cause my group unnecessary stressful wipes?

I'm not familiar with any of the 10-man zones, so I don't know how often I'd actually be tanking a boss, or if I'd just be a trash tank, etc... Any insight into the matter (taking into consideration all of the 10-mans, not just Naxx) would be tremendously helpful so I can start figuring out my options. Thanks!

This is some thing I'm working on uncovering from this thread. It's slightly confusing since we've agreed that Killing Machine is worth roughly ~1.1% dmg increase in optimal scenarios (read: not going to happen) due to our usage of Rune Strike.

Now, if we go by the tool top for Necrosis it says "Auto Attacks" - Rune Strike takes over for that "auto attack" thus this skill would not be placed in to effect. As Unholy, I've found myself too many times to count where my RP was maxed w/o RS usage. More-so RP than Frost which leads to more RS attacks.

In-a-nutshell: We're going to have to look at Recount/WWS/Combat Logs to see how often an auto attack goes through while Unholy Tanking.

(Now, in a PvP situation I can see this as a very nice talent due to most likely not using RS over DC/UB/MF.)

More thoughts?

We've done most of the 10mans with 2 warriors, both in sunwell/T6 gear+80blues/epics with def cap and all the usual stuff, and to be honest, on quite a few fights we had to have the 2nd tank spec prot because as fury he was getting trashed and healers would run out of mana. The issue isn't really getting killed, it's that in 10man, in most cases the group composition isn't optimal. You won't have all the right healers for all the fights, you don't necessarily have a refreshment let alone 2, or BoW, or mana tide and so on. Add to that that Blood has pretty much 0 tools for mitigation or AE threat, even side stuff, and I don't think it's a good idea. Doable, yeah probably if you're very well geared(heroic epics+badge gear) but definitely not recommend it. Now if you spec like unholy DPS, and maybe take blade barrier instead of the usual 5 first points in blood, and maybe make room for Toughness(like instead of the crit in blood), then you get a build that does very good DPS(if you're the only unholy DK that is), yet can offtank like a pro with bone shield, blade barrier and toughness. Well maybe not like a pro, but it's pretty viable.

It all depends on class availability though, if you can get the perfect 10man everytime(or variations), it doesn't really matter all that much. It's just that we had a lot of trouble taking the first 10 lvl 80 into naxx. Then again the fact we had an undergeared holydin(12k mana) and 2 resto shaman somewhat limited healing, add to that terrible DPS(DKs in green leading the DPS charts) and yeah, probably explain some issues. Still think you'd be better specing unholy though, it's perfect for offtanking.

I posted a couple pages back:

Necrosis procs off of Rune Strike.

I'm assuming this because it is technically an auto-attack. I'm also assuming that BCB can proc off of it too.

From what I've seen the damage is affected by Blood Presence/Rage of Rivendare and possibly with Ebon Plaguebringer. My Necrosis is hitting for 500+ on Rune Strikes while soloing.

That would make Blood Caked Blade a much more attractive talent and mean that the only obstacle for dual wield tanking is the hit penalty. I really hope it turns out to be true (and true for all bosses, rather than a select few). Dying to a random occurrence like parry haste has to be the most frustrating thing about being a tank.


I've got a question about AoE tanking. I've been trying two different initial rotations, but I can't work out which is better. Using direct damage first (Icy Touch > Plague Strike > Pestilence > (Deathchill) > Howling Blast > Blood Boil) should make for higher initial threat, but before you can cast that Howling Blast your DPS and healer can get gibbed by doing anything the slightest bit threatening. But going the alternate route and casting DoT spells first (Death and Decay > Icy Touch > Plague Strike > Pestilence) means that you're relying on Death and Decay to hold mobs until those first three runes cool down, though your group is safer since you have at least some threat on all mobs.

I know Death and Decay says it causes high threat, but is it really high enough to reliably keep mobs hitting me for 10 seconds of AoE by itself? Is the high threat an additional fixed value like a warrior's high threat abilities, or is it a multiplier on damage like a paladins? Once the mobs are stuck to me, how does casting Death and Decay compare to spending the runes on Blood Boil and Howling Blast?