I'm a bit unsure as to what to do with this patch.
Currently, i kinda have to stack pure defense gems (with a few exceptions).
Since EU armory is down, i'll slap some numbers;
26.2k unbuffed HP in Frost presence
~26% Dodge
~20% Parry
700 Def rating
(Heroic, badge and 10 man gear).
Last i checked i think i got 7 * def rating gems. This equals 112 defense rating.
So i'm considering if it's worth it to regem for either pure stamina, dodge/stamina and slap on the Gargoyle rune?
Alternatively - i could go for [Essence of Gossamer] in exchange for [Seal of the Pantheon] and only switch a few gems.
Any thoughts on this matter?
Edit, i might want to add that I'm unholy with SS glyph.
Additionally, I stuck Gargoyle on my weapon, stuck in solid stam gems, and ended up with 43.5k HP buffed... and about 62% avoidance.
according to my calculations you are at:
- 27,02 dodge
- 21,6 parry
- 5,64 chance to not be hit ( defence skill )
- 10% blade barrier
- standard 5% to not be hit.
which makes: 69,26 avoidance.
the interesthing thing is that we pretty much have the same gear and I was set at about keeping swordshattering but after seeing your gem set-up and compare it to my avoidance and stam yours is better. I'll be giving gargoyle a try now.
I'm at a loss as to what Major Glyphs should be used for tanking, previously I had the DnD one for the 2 second fear(It was funny, and sometimes it does help to have something cower in your AoE rather than smack you for 2 seconds, although mobs not fully in range is a bit of a nuance), the Unbreakable Armor one, because it would give me 5% more avoidance while it was up, and Icebound Fortitude(No runic power cost). But now with the changes to both Unbreakable Armor and DnD's glyphs, I'm wondering if I should still stick with them, or trade them out for something Like Icy Touch(Additional 10 runic power, no adverse affects anymore) or Frost Strike(8 Less Runic power cost, no longer freezes). Or are there other better choices?
I'm still on the levelling process but I decided I would level as a Frost tank to really learn the tanking process as a DK.
My DK is currently only lvl 70 and I started to tank UK and Nexus. All of the groups I've gone with didn't have seriously good healers or any form of CC, so I pretty much had to stress the AOE tanking component of frost. I have absolutely no problems in single target threat, which is probably helped by the fact that I end up being top DPSer (in terms of Overall Damage done) in every run I do.
Seeing that there was some difficulty in keeping me alive and sometimes holding aggro on the larger pulls, I started to think if I was doing something wrong. I believe I have the rotations mostly right but probably some things could be changed. Particulary, I'm trying to understand the real value of DnD as an opener.
At the moment, my rotations are as follows:
In case of a Rime proc after Icy Touch:
DnD - IT - PS - Pest - HB
If Rime does NOT proc:
DnD - IT - Pest - Blood Tap - HB
After this initial rotation, I prioritize keeping Frost Fever on every mob, using HB everytime it is up and using some Blood Boils every now and then. Most of the times I have no problems in keeping both Blood and Frost Fever up on every mob. I had no problems before I got into Northrend and I tanked a lot of dungeons in Outlands, however I find myself lacking currently.
As for Runic Power dumps I use FS obviously as there is really nothing else to spend it on. However, because I macroed Runic Strike to every attack I do (I did it very recently) I find myself not having that much RP to spend anyway, especially on aoe tanking where I end up parrying some attack every second.
Mainly, I find that the groups I've been running instances with are too trigger happy and don't really care about the kill order, so I find myself having to get some quick snap aggro in the pull. However, some people have been telling me that I should never use DnD as the opener in my rotation. I understand that using it pretty much delays the HB, however I'm cconcerned that healers will pull aggro if I spend the first 3-4 seconds without any sort of aoe damage on the mobs. Also, I think it's difficult to pull out a DnD in the end of my initial rotation because of the rune cooldown.
Another factor is Hugering Cold. I know it's considered useless, I use it mostly on bad pulls where we find ourselves fighting two groups. However, it is also good if you have Runic Power to use as an opener: HC - Deathchill - HB makes up for tons of initial aggro, however it completely neglects the CC factor of HC.
Another thing is survivability. I make sure to use every cooldown I have on aoe packs (Icebound Fortitude, Lichbourne and Unbreakable Armor) in sequence and I usually don't have that many problems against melee mobs. However, against caster mobs I find my health going down significantly. I don't have imba gear for my level but it's not that bad at least according to LootRank.
Yesterday I had major problems against the Elemental boss in Nexus (the one that shiftes to Void Rifts) mainly due to the ammount of damage I was taking. Other example is the aoe pulls in UK where mobs drop bombs on the floor. I ended up moving constantly and dragging the mobs with me to make it, however, when I did those runs as a DPSer I don't recall the tanks having to move around.
I didnt' spec into Acclimation and I guess that's what's lacking. However I was under the impression that general consensus was that this talent is not really worthwhile.
I had no problems whatsoever in Oulands, but I'm a bit concerned about my tanking viability in Northrend, mostly due to the excess of aoe packs and the way people do dungeons now (no CC, just aoe everything down). I did read up on everything I could about Frost aoe tanking and I believe I'm doing things mostly right. So, I'm wondering it it's my gear, rotations or simply the groups I've been finding that are lacking.
On a side note, is there any place where I can check stat weightings for a DK tank or any good spreadsheet? I'm relatively new to the whole tanking scene, all of my raiding experience comes from a Rogue's perspective.
Fog, it would help if we had some sort of link towards your character to know what your talent spec is, what your gear level is ect. Sometimes its the most simpleist of things as your spec that can change something drastically. I have seen some Frost DK tanks pass up the 10% parry from the blood tree for no reason at all! That alone adds to the overall survivability.
As for your problem with Casters, every tank has its problems with them, its a common theme. Just each of them have their own unique ways to counter it. DK's have more than one option, so start to consider the following: If you know there is a caster, you have at the very least, 3 ways of stopping their damage. Mind Freeze: This is the equiv to a kick/pummel ect but on a longer cooldown. Use on casters to stop oncoming caster damage, increases your chance to live. Strangulate: A silence effect for use during extreme circumstances due to its 2 min cd. Handle with care, chances are you won't encounter so many caster mobs every 2 mins anyways. Anti-Magic Shell. This is hands down our pride and joy of being a DK tank vs casters. They have even reduced the cooldown on this bad boy to 45 seconds from 1 min. Generally speaking, if you are chain pulling with good dps, you can have this up once every 2 or 3 pulls. With slower groups, every 1 or 2 pulls. This will definatly keep you at a good spot for staying alive. Also note that you do have Icebound Fortitude, which now reduces all damage taken by 35%. for a 1 min cd ability, you can interchange that with Anti-Magic Shell, and Strangulate and Mind Freeze to reduce the magical Damage.
From what I hear, you are using the HC build, and I personally dislike it, due to never actually using it because whats the point? People may say don't use DnD as an opener, but it really depends on the situation. I find myself opening with DnD regardless just because I tend to AoE tank alot better than single target tanking. My Rotation basically builds from DnD>PS>IT>Pest>(If Rime Procs)HB>Blood Tap>BB. With that simple little rotation, I end up finding it hard for any aoe class to pull any mob off me, while holding threat against the main target easily. If I don't start off with DnD however due to say its on CD, or I just don't want to be rune deprived ect(Boss Fight). I then normally start off with IT>PS>Pest>HB>(If rime Procced)OB>BS. The reason for me opening with something like Icy Touch, is only if I need to pull them away from other mobs(our ranged pull), or simply because some retard dps/healer ran ahead and the mob is aggroed to them for now. I rarely ever use Death Grip, and the reason being if I am MTing/OTing something, and it gets away from me or is going far out there, I'll generally DG it instead of taunting first, reason being, I would rather it being up in my face while I taunt its ass, or it could be a caster and won't exactly stay on me for that long unless its in my face taking my aoe's/melee's.
As for the extra damage you take from those "bombs" on the ground, you really shouldn't have to worry about that. It's your healer's job to heal you from something like that. Now if it was on a raid equiv boss, the bombs would be something you would want to avoid, and therefore your practice of moving around to avoid them, is actually a good thing, and should be commended on it. Even in 5 mans however, you are actually doing the group a favour by taking less damage. The idea of the tank is two fold: To force all the damage on a single target(You), and to use your abilities to mitigate damage wherever possible. This includes staying out of AoE's or getting hit by excess things that you could have easily avoided. Yes its awesome to be the tank standing in the AoE and being able to be healed through it, but its better to be known as the tank who takes the least amount of risks to himself, and keeps the parties well being above all else.
As for your CD efficiency, try to not use Lichborne as much on trash, normally I end up using it as a way to ward off fear, or used during boss fights. It's got the longer 3 min CD(Believe it or not, its one of our longest CD's!) So using it on trash as a rotation of CD management might not be in the best interest. Keep it as an OS(Oh Sh**) Button.
Now with the changes on Pestilence and Howling Blast, you should be able to maintain alot of AoE threat without having to use DnD. If I am tanking a bunch of mobs, I will be using most likely now, IT>PS>Pest>HB>BS>HB>HB>Pest>Pest>HB>HB>Ect. The reason for two pestilence is NOT because I think its better than BB(By far its alot worse for threat gen) But because ontop of having all subsequent targets having their Diseases on them, I also want my main target to keep it as well. If the Main target is going down fast enough though, I would change the 2nd Pest to BB.
Hopefully this helps you out. I'm still waiting on peoples opinions for DK Tanking Glyphs BTW. :P
I didnt' spec into Acclimation and I guess that's what's lacking. However I was under the impression that general consensus was that this talent is not really worthwhile.
At 69, Acclimation seems great to me. It stacks pretty quickly, and with Frost Aura + 3xAcclimation my char sheet would show ~240 resistance, and I noticed significant reduction in spell damage intake. Just my experience.
Where I would differ on talents, is Subversion's points into Bladed Armor. 9% crit on basically only Obliterate(which we end up using alot more than Blood Strike) isn't worth it compared to 3 AP more per 180 armor which affects all threat generation through RS, PS, Melee Strikes, OB, FS ect. That's #1 on my thoughts for your blood tree. 2nd off, just for now at such a low level, I would suggest using your points in HC, Deathchill and Merc Combat, to be in use for Anticipation, just so you can help out your healer by mitigating 4% more damage through dodge.
Honestly I just find Merc Combat to be a waste on tanks, although some have arguments on it, and they're all valid. On trash mobs, your not going to see much use on doing 12% damage, because by the time they're at 35%, they're just gonna flop around on the floor and die before they hit a DPS IF they pull off you. As for a boss, lets say on average boss fights last 5 mins. During the 5 mins, thats about 20% per minute. And lets put you at say 7k TPS. by the time they reach 35% to get the dps's damage bonuses, you have already had 3.5 mins of threat generation. thats approx 420k threat per min, so a total of around 1.3 mil threat. Now lets say because they're good dps, they put out before their buffs, 3.5k TPS, and after the damage buff, they catch up or even pass you on threat generation. In the course of that 3.5 mins, you are doubling their threat, so 210k threat bonus on each min, being 735k threat over the top. If they were doing 10k TPS after this buff, after 1 min, they would get 600k threat, 135k shy of your previous threat at 3.5 mins, however you have now produced another 420k threat, boosting yourself to 555k threat. They can only gain 300k threat in the 30 seconds remaning, which you are still generating threat through. This is my logic when facing Merc Combat, so I never spec into it. Of course, this is all through hypothetical numbers, and weither or not they are correct assumptions or not, is a different story. 7k threat gen is expected at 25 naxx quality tanks, but where the dps sits at for TPS is not what I know of.
Anyways, enough ranting about Merc Combat! Thats a diff topic, although the same lines in this Tanking Thread. Hopefully future tanks will read that and ask if they actually need it or not. It does come in handy incase the boss drops aggro, or incase you are setting up to be an OT in Naxx ect, and always have your dps set handy, so you end up dpsing on bosses that your not needed on, and could use the extra damage boost without having to spec out. Maybe even helps incase your dps have serious threat issues due to them having the spikiest damage in the world, or being far outgeared and forgot where their aggro dump button went.
Really though, thats about all I can think of that can help you out, other than say picking up a few of the Cobalt tanking pieces for the slots where you don't have any defense gear on it, or maybe even for some of the ones you just socketed for defense. Honestly when I hit 70, I had the full 8 piece cobalt set placed on me so I could start tanking, and it worked quite effectively due to it almost crit capping you at 70, as well as giving you a decent amount of stamina(I think I was around 14k unbuffed health with it). Even though the mat cost has apparently increased, as a Blacksmith, I haven't seen anything drastic for changes. Maybe 1 or 2 bars extra, but thats about it. And Cobalt is 1 for 1 on smelting, so it doesn't make much of a difference when the whole set used to take 32 bars, probably now max 40.
So, I was able to tank the first 4 pulls in to Abom wing last night before the lag monster roared and brought our server down for hours. And - I could not hold aggro as Frost DW. It has nothing to do with the DW, either. IT-Pest-HB, nothing. It was subpar TPS, couldn't get any exacts due to 4 trash pulls before the raid was called so hopefully tonight we'll have more information.
As Unholy my rotation was DnD-IT-PS-Pest and things were on me like glue. But, I can't find a solid rotation for Frost with DnD.
DnD-IT-Pest-Blood Tap-HB only works once a minute but we'll see how will that works.
This is the build I went with and I tried it last night in 10 man Naxx, it didn't seem too bad, the problem I have with it, is having to use OB or DS to get your Death Runes, maybe I'm wrong the rotations I went with on trash were..
PS>IT>Pest>DS>Pest>BT>Pest
Thats what I used alot, it seemed to do okay, Unfortunately I can't spec into Morbidity because I'm the one of the people who get their FPS rocked down to nothing if I do have it.
Another rotation to use to throw in DnD
DnD>PS>IT>Pest>BT>Pest>DS
That one might get agro better but it seems tougher to get your Death Runes going having to use DS so late.
On Bosses it didn't seem so bad, we had two healers in 10 man Naxx last night and atrocious server lag last night also, when VB is going it's pretty nice to be able to DS and heal yourself, and using Rune Tap I was getting healed for around 8kish. That combined with good usage of IBF and Lichborne I think it's okay, I don't do any 25 mans, so I don't know what it'll do in there.
Sudden Doom is pretty nice on boss fights for a free DC to help generate threat. Also Spell Deflection I'm pretty sure proc'd off of an aoe spell last night, I don't think that is supposed to happen, the tooltip reads Direct Damage spells.. /shrug
My experience with Blood tanking in Naxx 25 last night was a pretty positive one. The other two tanks in our raid were paladins, and at the very least I could feel closer parity between myself and our MT. He could still generate way more threat than I could catch up with on bosses, but at least now on trash I don't have a problem claiming a few mobs for myself.
Honestly, the only reasons I have DRM for is utility on bosses and for AoE threat. From what I could tell Oblit was better than using two Heart Strikes on single targets (aside from the bugged RP generation, which is the main reason I resorted to using HS as much as I did). Using Oblit for threat is better than HS because it's less GCDs, and the time you save can be spent on DCs or what have you. Unless you're dealing with adds or something (Guardians during KT, for example).
One thing that always confuses me, and perhaps it's because I missed an important conversation at some point, is why anyone would take 2/2 Glacier Rot over 2/5 Black Ice when going to Annihilation in the Frost tree. Glacier Rot is only 10% damage from Icy Touch and only when the target is diseased. 2/5 Black Ice is 12% damage from frost attacks (Icy touch, Frost Fever) at all times. Am I wrong?
I'm not sure if i get it right but atm I only got Obliberate Rank 4 and it produces 5 Runic Power on use.
Anyone else got that? Does this mean the bug on Obliberate Rank 5 is that it doesn't exist?
Empowered Rune Weapon produces the 25 Runic Power it should, so this is hotfixed by now.
I'm not quite sure about geming atm. Def Gems seem good because of improving IBF and the Boneshield. Though Boneshield suffered from the nerf, the 6 charges are pretty good. I did Archavon 10 man just now and the Trash wouldn't get Boneshield down.
I don't know if I should stay Unholy or change to Blood. Blood with the new Vampiric Blood and WotN seems really strong, and with improved Lifetap and probably Lichking you'll get a lot of "Oh Shit Buttons" you can use.
- the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed -
Ya, I noticed some threat issues in 25man naxx last night. It wasn't too bad in the beginning but on a fight like patchwerk where everyone is just going all out, i'm normally 2nd on threat no matter what, but for whatever reason i was "supposed" to be main tanking but i just got outshadowed by the 2 other tanks and ended up 8th on threat at the end of the fight.
I'm considering re-specing into frost and see if that helps the cause some but it was strange even the other warrior tank was like your threat wasn't close to what it normally is. So i wonder if the frost presence bug actually did come back into play.
One thing that always confuses me, and perhaps it's because I missed an important conversation at some point, is why anyone would take 2/2 Glacier Rot over 2/5 Black Ice when going to Annihilation in the Frost tree. Glacier Rot is only 10% damage from Icy Touch and only when the target is diseased. 2/5 Black Ice is 12% damage from frost attacks (Icy touch, Frost Fever) at all times. Am I wrong?
They do it because they're stupid, and for some reason people have psychological issues with taking incomplete talents. Hell, I'm one of them (although I don't ever take Glacier Rot over Black Ice)... I think it's a mild form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder... or just the fact that 95% of the human population is absolutely awful at even basic elementary mathematics and numerical reasoning.
The one thing that I noticed (for a short time) is how improved a frost spec could be. With a glyphed-and-sigiled Icy Touch, and a glyphed-and-talented Obliterate, I would have been generating loads of RP (I didn't feel starved, even though OB wasn't generating it's 30RP/rotation), getting plenty of crits from KM and all the OB crit talents, and RSing for 1.5x threat like a beast. I was hoping for a good boost from the PPM KM to bring us into line with (at least) Warriors, and while the jury is still out, I think we may be close. Sadly, I had to stop my tests to jump into a Sarth+3 spec, but I should have another look in Naxx tonight.
In unrelated news, apparently, even Onyxia has been hit by the recent financial crisis... as she only had 55g in her pocket last night. Damn those black dragons for getting involved in sub-prime lending!
Tanked naxx last night as deep blood 56/5/10 and it was fine, I'm going to drop a few points from blood though and go more unholy for more str and sta. I wrote some stuff down at home that I noticed at the time while tanking but don't remember anything specific except doing 7-8k tps on gluth without bloodlust or anything out of the ordinary.
Zerath, I don't know what to say really. I never once have had threat generation problems as Frost Spec, so really I cant say much. But I do notice that alot of you are skipping out on plague strike. Yes its minor damage, but it's dot uptime keeps generating a bit more extra threat, for only one GCD, where you end up refreshing it indefinatly against trash mobs anyways. Against the bosses, its even more crucial I think to keep the disease up itself, afterall, what else are you going to use that random unholy rune for while your frost's are on CD so you cant use Oblit?
Kaejin, you are absolutely right about the talents. Glacier Rot is inferior to Black Ice, especially if you spec even deeper into Frost and pick up Frost Strike or Howling Blast or whatever.
On a sad note, boneshield is not enough on it's own to mitigate an adequate amount of a 3dSarth breath. I was gibbed 2x last night with it up. This is slightly offset by the reduced CD on AMS, but I still required more guardian spirits last night than usual. So sad.
I was having some threat issues in 10 man Naxx last night as well. I run an unholy build but always go down for Lichborne. Think I'm going to have to drop that and go after Bladed Armor, Two hand weapon Spec, and Dark Conviction. I think those three should really help with TPS. I'm thinking of dropping Master of Ghouls too. Just doesn't seem to help me that much as a tank.
I was having some threat issues in 10 man Naxx last night as well. I run an unholy build but always go down for Lichborne. Think I'm going to have to drop that and go after Bladed Armor, Two hand weapon Spec, and Dark Conviction. I think those three should really help with TPS. I'm thinking of dropping Master of Ghouls too. Just doesn't seem to help me that much as a tank.
Death and Decay got a big damage nerf for unholy builds, as it doesn't benefit from Crypt Fever anymore. You could use the DnD glyph if you aren't already to lessen the nerf somewhat.
At first this looked like a rather "meh"-sigil. But after comming to the conclusion that it's a 100% proc chance, and on top of that works by granting you a 30 seconds buff with 53 defense rating, it started to look a bit more interesting.
My immediate idea was of course to make a macro something like this:
/equip Sigil of Unfaltering Knight
/cast Icy Touch
/equip <some other sigil>
However, this didn't really work out in practise, and not knowing all the mechanics behind exactly why. I'm asking here.
What I know is:
* The buff don't dissapear if you switch sigils
* Weaponslot items and sigils can be switched in combat
* Swapping said slots does not invoke a global cooldown, nor are affected by global cooldowns
So how come this doesn't work? And is there any way to make it work?
What happens is basically that the first IT I cast doesn't proc the sigil, and the macro doesn't switch back to whatever sigil I have put in after the Icy Touch cast. The next execution of the macro I cast (1.5 seconds later) does proc the buff, and does switch to the other sigil afterwards. So I'm a bit in the dark of what the f is going on.
01/21/09, 3:03 AM
bosanc wru
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