DK Tanking Discussion - Page 85

Mindaika · 01/22/09, 1:38 AM

Originally Posted by Shadai

Actually in regards to my pervious post about killing machine....

I'm been giving it some thought and willing to bet the 11 was just some lucky rng and think the AVERAGE proc rate for 5 point Killing Machine is actually closer to 25%

This makes more sense to me and closer to the other findings.

It also makes it extremely easy now to understand the point-by-point add into Killing Machine.

Assuming a 25% proc rate on 5 points, that would mean 5% for each point.

I hypothesize that if each point would proc 5% someone would get increased procs for a faster weapon or perhaps duel wield. This would indicate that perhaps the value of haste may indeed rise for frost builds. However, I caution that someone said something about it proc'ing more for slower weapons, so the hypothesis could be far off base. At any rate, it is a far better talent, even if you only stack 2 points for 10% proc. This at least gives us a measuring stick by which to value Killing Machine on a point for point basis.

I hope this doesn't get lost in the random chatting about blood that has no informational value whatsoever that seems to be dominating the current discussion on this thread.

25% of what? The proc rate for post-3.0.8 KM is 5PPM, which would be 1PPM/point. Weapon speed is factored into the proc rate. Slow weapons have a higher proc/swing frequency.

Fleischbaum · 01/22/09, 2:45 AM

I partly agree with Alistar, he is probably referring to me with ''ppl that stamina stack''.

I understand that I gimp my avoidance abit but gargoyle will increase the effect of IBF too. Like other ppl said it's closer to 1%. For that 1% I`m not gonna have about 2k (maybe more) hp go away.

Anyway, I`m curious what other ppl will say about this.

Unki

Pyros · 01/22/09, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by Fleischbaum

I partly agree with Alistar, he is probably referring to me with ''ppl that stamina stack''.

I understand that I gimp my avoidance abit but gargoyle will increase the effect of IBF too. Like other ppl said it's closer to 1%. For that 1% I`m not gonna have about 2k (maybe more) hp go away.

Anyway, I`m curious what other ppl will say about this.

Unki

It's slightly more than 1%, depending on your setup probably as high as 2%. However as you said, you give up plenty of stamina for it, but I wouldn't say 2k. You lose between 50 and 100stamina from the gem/enchant/trinket switch, depending on your setup, and 2%stamina should be around 45stamina for most people, so you're losing between 100-150stamina, or 1k-1.5k hp. Still a decent amount, but 2% avoidance is pretty good, especially since now that they fixed spell deflection, parry is a bit more valuable to votw or blood builds.

Guess it'll depend on people, I'm pretty happy with my setup, but I want to get a Repelling Charge trinket to be able to switch runeforges more easily.

Davia · 01/22/09, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Pyros

It's slightly more than 1%, depending on your setup probably as high as 2%. However as you said, you give up plenty of stamina for it, but I wouldn't say 2k. You lose between 50 and 100stamina from the gem/enchant/trinket switch, depending on your setup, and 2%stamina should be around 45stamina for most people, so you're losing between 100-150stamina, or 1k-1.5k hp. Still a decent amount, but 2% avoidance is pretty good, especially since now that they fixed spell deflection, parry is a bit more valuable to votw or blood builds.

Guess it'll depend on people, I'm pretty happy with my setup, but I want to get a Repelling Charge trinket to be able to switch runeforges more easily.

Has it been confirmed and tested that Spell Deflection is no longer preempting AMS?

Zungate · 01/22/09, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Fleischbaum

I partly agree with Alistar, he is probably referring to me with ''ppl that stamina stack''.

I understand that I gimp my avoidance abit but gargoyle will increase the effect of IBF too. Like other ppl said it's closer to 1%. For that 1% I`m not gonna have about 2k (maybe more) hp go away.

Anyway, I`m curious what other ppl will say about this.

Unki

If I'm reading this right, you regemmed defense gems to stamina gems? Thus still having ~540 defense. Thus it wont have any effect on your IBF at all.
And if you're still at 540 def with Gargoyle, you lost 4% avoidance.

Fog · 01/22/09, 6:00 AM

The problem with Killing machine is actually what to drop in a deep frost tanking build.

The fact that it costs 5 talent points makes it a bit expensive (although it does seem awesome in regard to threat generation). So, it pretty much leaves us with two choices:

Drop something like Bladed Armor and put even more points in Frost (doubt it pays off) or switch points inside the frost tree. Regarding this last point, what are the more likely talents to be lost in favor of Killing Machine?

I know there is always some fluctuation of points in the middle tiers of Frost with people randomly choosing between Acclimation, Merciless Combat, Frost Aura, Chill of the Grave and Frigid DreadPlate. Another possible talent to be lost is Glacier Rot.

What are your opinions on this? Which talents would you drop to get Killing Machine. It does seem to be worth it: on a typical rotation even without Epidemic, with 5 PPM (which would average on once every 12 seconds), you pretty much have a garanteed crit of Frost Strike, Howling Blast or Icy Touch in each cycle which is great for threat generation.

Any thoughts?

Ickis · 01/22/09, 6:08 AM

Originally Posted by Zungate

If I'm reading this right, you regemmed defense gems to stamina gems? Thus still having ~540 defense. Thus it wont have any effect on your IBF at all.
And if you're still at 540 def with Gargoyle, you lost 4% avoidance.

Um isn't it 1% of avoidance? Put Shatter on one 2hander Gargoyle on another difference for me was 1.89 : /

The reason why I went with gargoyle myself wasn't to gem stam but so I'd be able get more Hit/expertise

Superwombat · 01/22/09, 6:16 AM

Well, I replaced my sigil with Garg, and regemmed for stam, here's how it worked out for me

HP (unbuffed) went from 26605 to 28871, defense remained the same, lost 4% parry.

I was also able to replace some crap blue Def trinkets with some sexy purple trinkets that had no defence.

So, I gained (roughly, be nice to my napkin math) about 8.5% more health, at the cost of 4% avoidance.
Personally, I'm a big believer in the effective health method of tanking. Also, parry only works on physical attacks, coming from the front, while you are not stunned etc.... health works on EVERYTHING.

Additionally, the stamina gains will be amplified further by raid buffs, where the 4% parry will always be... 4% parry.

That all being said, I certainly hope that I'll be able to gear up an avoidance set, as well as a parryforged wep to go with it. That's always how things have worked in the past (TBC), you geared up for effective health, and once you outgeared content, you farmed yourself up an avoidance set for gimmick fights and farming.

Edit: Corrected wrong parry value numbers

Superwombat · 01/22/09, 6:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ickis

Um isn't it 1% of avoidance? Put Shatter on one 2hander Gargoyle on another difference for me was 1.89 : /

The reason why I went with gargoyle myself wasn't to gem stam but so I'd be able get more Hit/expertise

Naw, he's correct. You may not have understood. If you replace Shatter with Garg, and change NOTHING else, you lose about 1% avoidance. (remeber, your chance to be missed is effected by defense, but doesn't show on your char sheet)

If you replace shatter with garg and REGEM to drop back down to 540 defense... then you have the same defense as before, but 4% less parry, that is 4% avoidance lost.

Ickis · 01/22/09, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Superwombat

Naw, he's correct. You may not have understood. If you replace Shatter with Garg, and change NOTHING else, you lose about 1% avoidance. (remeber, your chance to be missed is effected by defense, but doesn't show on your char sheet)

If you replace shatter with garg and REGEM to drop back down to 540 defense... then you have the same defense as before, but 4% less parry, that is 4% avoidance lost.

AHHHH Okay,Wonder who actually could get 540 by just dropping gems lol...I used Def\Stam Strait Def and Parry\Def
when I put gargoyle on I was at about 553 defense when I regemmed I was at 550....only way I could get back to 540 is regem for defense and then drop repelling charge <Removed>

AlistarNL · 01/22/09, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Zungate

If I'm reading this right, you regemmed defense gems to stamina gems? Thus still having ~540 defense. Thus it wont have any effect on your IBF at all.
And if you're still at 540 def with Gargoyle, you lost 4% avoidance.

This pretty much sums up what I mean. Well in the end I guess it's down to just personal preference but ill be sticking to swordshattering since next sunday ill get my [Platinum Mesh Cloak] which will leave me with absolutely no defence gems on my gear and still have about 32 - 32.5k hp unbuffed.

s[orc]ery · 01/22/09, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Fog

The problem with Killing machine is actually what to drop in a deep frost tanking build.

The fact that it costs 5 talent points makes it a bit expensive (although it does seem awesome in regard to threat generation). So, it pretty much leaves us with two choices:

Drop something like Bladed Armor and put even more points in Frost (doubt it pays off) or switch points inside the frost tree. Regarding this last point, what are the more likely talents to be lost in favor of Killing Machine?

I know there is always some fluctuation of points in the middle tiers of Frost with people randomly choosing between Acclimation, Merciless Combat, Frost Aura, Chill of the Grave and Frigid DreadPlate. Another possible talent to be lost is Glacier Rot.

What are your opinions on this? Which talents would you drop to get Killing Machine. It does seem to be worth it: on a typical rotation even without Epidemic, with 5 PPM (which would average on once every 12 seconds), you pretty much have a garanteed crit of Frost Strike, Howling Blast or Icy Touch in each cycle which is great for threat generation.

Any thoughts?

Once they implement the 0 cooldown on Howling Blast I will be dropping Annihilation for it, using HB exclusively for single target tanking. That and the two filler points (which in most builds is Frost Aura/Endless Winter/RPM). Currently i've dropped Merciless Combat instead given it's total TPS increase isn't spectacular and it only benefits you when you need it least (You should be head and shoulders above everyone else at that stage).

The new Killing Machine gave me a 74% crit rate on HB for Sarth Whelp/Flame tanking today. To say the least, it's worth it.

gorsameth · 01/22/09, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by s[orc]ery

Once they implement the 0 cooldown on Howling Blast I will be dropping Annihilation for it, using HB exclusively for single target tanking. That and the two filler points (which in most builds is Frost Aura/Endless Winter/RPM). Currently i've dropped Merciless Combat instead given it's total TPS increase isn't spectacular and it only benefits you when you need it least (You should be head and shoulders above everyone else at that stage).

The new Killing Machine gave me a 74% crit rate on HB for Sarth Whelp/Flame tanking today. To say the least, it's worth it.

There will be no 0 cooldown on Howling blast. It has already been stated several times that it has been reverted to 5 seconds. The tooltip just hasnt been updated to match.

s[orc]ery · 01/22/09, 7:39 AM

Originally Posted by gorsameth

There will be no 0 cooldown on Howling blast. It has already been stated several times that it has been reverted to 5 seconds. The tooltip just hasnt been updated to match.

Ghostcrawler has stated that they are looking to implement zero cooldown on HB in the future in exchange for reduced AOE damage.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Howling Blast - A Tank's Perspective

We will continue to iterate on the design and the ultimate goal is to remove the cooldown. There are some ways we can reign in the damage (such as a smaller AE cap or the damage falling off after the initial target) that will take some more time and testing to implement.

Fog · 01/22/09, 7:41 AM

I believe Blizzard stated that the cooldown in HB is not being removed, but actually changed to 5 seconds instead of 6 to make it more manageable with current rotations. I believe that the current bug is just that the tooltip doesn't show it. At least that's the common belief in the european forums. *EDIT*, ok you guys beat me to it...

On a side note, there has been a lot of talk towards using HB or Obliterate for single target generation. Obliterate has a higher crit chance but HB ignores armour. Does anyone have any solid numbers on this?

One thing I actually like about the DK is that there is not a straight answer for everything (at least not so far). I'm really curious around some aspects of the frost rotation that can make a lot of difference overall:

1 - Is Plague Strike useful at all? Not using it will allow for an extra OB/HB which has been stated that is more worth it than the damage/threat of PS + Dot + Damage increase in OB from the extra disease. If that is true, is it worth to drop it from our current rotations even in AOE tanking? It will increase the speed at which you can throw your first HB, especially if you use Blood Tap.

2 - Is DnD a good opener for aoe tanking or should we use it after the initial spreading of diseases + HB?

For AOE Tanking, at least in 5 man and heroics, I always start with DnD simply because all the groups I get tend to start nuking imediately and I need that high threat starter. However, it does tend to delay my first HB unless I get a Rime proc which I find dangerous especially if people have a difficult time following the kill order or are trying to aoe everything down.

3 - Is Glyph of Obliterate better than Rune Strike one? I tend to think it's not. If I look at Recount in terms of Damage Done, Rune Strike is at the very top (I macroed it to every ability).

4 - Is Epidemic really worth it for a deep frost build? It does give you an error margin if your rotation gets screwed in the mean time (missed, parries, etc) but in the end when everything goes well, what do you do with the extra time? Without epidemic I pretty much spend all my runes and then reapply diseases again. I believe it will allow me for one extra OB in each rotation which may be worth the 2 talent points.

Yeah, I'm confused...picked up the DK recently and trying to do my job the best I can

Ashigore · 01/22/09, 7:59 AM

Originally Posted by Fog

1 - Is Plague Strike useful at all? Not using it will allow for an extra OB/HB which has been stated that is more worth it than the damage/threat of PS + Dot + Damage increase in OB from the extra disease. If that is true, is it worth to drop it from our current rotations even in AOE tanking? It will increase the speed at which you can throw your first HB, especially if you use Blood Tap.

I dont think it is, no. An IT - BS - OB - OB.... rotation starting with blood tap will net you better tps in my experience, using PS will give lower tps and may well screw up your death runes as well.

Originally Posted by Fog

2 - Is DnD a good opener for aoe tanking or should we use it after the initial spreading of diseases + HB?

For AOE Tanking, at least in 5 man and heroics, I always start with DnD simply because all the groups I get tend to start nuking imediately and I need that high threat starter. However, it does tend to delay my first HB unless I get a Rime proc which I find dangerous especially if people have a difficult time following the kill order or are trying to aoe everything down.

Personally, I only use DnD if someone ninja pulls, or there are trigger happy aoe, because I find it seriously screws up my rotation, as you say, delaying the first HB, making it difficult to hold agro at the start.

Originally Posted by Fog

3 - Is Glyph of Obliterate better than Rune Strike one? I tend to think it's not. If I look at Recount in terms of Damage Done, Rune Strike is at the very top (I macroed it to every ability).

I don't see any reason why you wouldn't have both, they're the best 2 glyphs for frost if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Fog

4 - Is Epidemic really worth it for a deep frost build? It does give you an error margin if your rotation gets screwed in the mean time (missed, parries, etc) but in the end when everything goes well, what do you do with the extra time? Without epidemic I pretty much spend all my runes and then reapply diseases again. I believe it will allow me for one extra OB in each rotation which may be worth the 2 talent points.

If you use IT - BS - OB - OB rotation, Epidemic is a waste of points since you'll run out of RP for FS and restart the rotation before it falls off anyway.

Just what I've learned from reading and testing, hope this helps.

Zungate · 01/22/09, 8:24 AM

Which major glyphs would one choose as Unholy tank?

Currently i'm using [Glyph of Scourge Strike], [Glyph of Bone Shield], [Glyph of Death and Decay] - should I use [Glyph of Rune Strike] ?
I am considering getting the new defense sigil, and tossing the Scourge Strike glyph - thus allowing me to rotate gems or trinket. Is this wise?

bearformlol · 01/22/09, 9:16 AM

For the blood tanks, what rotation are you guys using to open up on boss fights to generate so much TPS?

Flamingcloud · 01/22/09, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by AlistarNL

This pretty much sums up what I mean. Well in the end I guess it's down to just personal preference but ill be sticking to swordshattering since next sunday ill get my [Platinum Mesh Cloak] which will leave me with absolutely no defence gems on my gear and still have about 32 - 32.5k hp unbuffed.

Fact remains that you could keep shadowed sun(which for pure survivability is better), swap repelling charge with gossamer, swap impregnable fortress with gatekeeper(which for pure survivability is better), swap 22 def to chest with 275 health, and put on gargoyle and have way more health and effective health. Really the argument and gear set you propose has nothing to do with swordshattering and everything to do with you choosing avoidance over stamina, threat over effective health(cloak/ring).

Zerath · 01/22/09, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by bearformlol

For the blood tanks, what rotation are you guys using to open up on boss fights to generate so much TPS?

Last night IT-PS-DS-HS-HS//HS-HS-HS-HS<DS or IT-PS> was netting me a constant 5.5-7k with spikes up to 9k.

I think this can be improved upon with the removal of DS and addition of OB, but, the issue is finding a spec that encompasses that. The best I can think of right now is this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=132015010504

This has 4 points left which could be 3/5 Blood Gorged + 1/1 Lichborne or just a flat 4/5 Blood Gorged. With my current health, 75% left still leaves me at ~32k life which I *rarely* hit last night while MTing bosses. And if I dipped under, it was only for a split second.

IT-PS-OB-HS-HS//OB-OB-OB?

(I'm going to test this spec out this weekend with a 10man Naxx. Sorry this is cut short, have to get ready for work.)

Flamingcloud · 01/22/09, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ickis

AHHHH Okay,Wonder who actually could get 540 by just dropping gems lol...I used Def\Stam Strait Def and Parry\Def
when I put gargoyle on I was at about 553 defense when I regemmed I was at 550....only way I could get back to 540 is regem for defense and then drop repelling charge lol.

Keep in mind that you can drop gems(2 extra for bs), 12 def to bracers, and 22 def to chest(even the 16 to cloak if you wanted) it actually drops me below the cap doing this. I am not 100% sure that I am ok yet with IT sigil keeping me over the cap so I haven't changed the 22 def yet.

Still this patch I went from 27900 to 33300 unbuffed, gained about 500 armor, 10% magic mit, and dropped a tad under 4% avoidance(not including sigil gain). Pretty positive changes imo.

Kaveli · 01/22/09, 9:46 AM

i've been using the new defense trinket in raids and it is very good. the defense proc has a 30 sec duration and almost a 90%+ chance to proc. I'm not sure if I haven't seen it proc off the Icy touch yet... The "chance" in there is much closer to "will".

Flamingcloud · 01/22/09, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kaveli

i've been using the new defense trinket in raids and it is very good. the defense proc has a 30 sec duration and almost a 90%+ chance to proc. I'm not sure if I haven't seen it proc off the Icy touch yet... The "chance" in there is much closer to "will".

Well I was more thinking of sartharion, since he becomes immune to damage now I am not sure I can proc the sigil.

Dirich · 01/22/09, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Superwombat

Naw, he's correct. You may not have understood. If you replace Shatter with Garg, and change NOTHING else, you lose about 1% avoidance. (remeber, your chance to be missed is effected by defense, but doesn't show on your char sheet)

If you replace shatter with garg and REGEM to drop back down to 540 defense... then you have the same defense as before, but 4% less parry, that is 4% avoidance lost.

There's one error tough.

Swordshatter gives 4% parry, which is not affected by DR (at the best of my knowledge at least, only the ratings are)

Gargoyle provides 3% avoidance trough defense, but this is BEFORE DRs kick in.

This is why I am going to regem stam (thanks to the sigil) and leave swordshatter on my 2h.
Gargoyle is more of a tool for the undergeared DKs to reach def cap, from my point of view.

Flamingcloud · 01/22/09, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Dirich

There's one error tough.

Swordshatter gives 4% parry, which is not affected by DR (at the best of my knowledge at least, only the ratings are)

Gargoyle provides 3% avoidance trough defense, but this is BEFORE DRs kick in.

This is why I am going to regem stam (thanks to the sigil) and leave swordshatter on my 2h.
Gargoyle is more of a tool for the undergeared DKs to reach def cap, from my point of view.

For the umpteenth time gargoyle is not affected by DR.