Hello my fellow DK tanks. Patch 3.08 has been great for our class as a whole. Just goofing around in various instances with the changes im hitting in the 50% range critical from killing machine. I’m currently using a frosty build so that pairing with howling blast is making threat a non issue, not that it really was before. Also the changes to armor configuring and spell damage reduction have made me a more viable tank.
I am looking at trying out a blood tank build just because I think it is better for me as a whole with my play style. I was wondering if the threat rotation and generation is similar to the way a warrior used to tab sunder to get agro on multiple mobs.
From constantly following this thread I know that there's a lot of varying opinion on the issue I'd like to bring up, but I'd still like to hear what fellow high-geared DKs are thinking.
The issue that's plaguing me currently at this point in my tanking career is one of TPS vs. Survivability.
Now don't get me wrong, I understand our TPS swings wildly depending on spec and the encounter we're tackling, but as a former DPS I've always been one to watch my TPS like a hawk. My current build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) was an experiment in threat and honestly, gemmed to hit-cap spell with Misery, I had a solid 7k avg on single targets and most of our other tanks had issues pulling off me if I initiated aoe.
I'm not tooting my own horn, but rather I'm disappointed in how low my EH is. Our DPS can go full-blast with zero worries, but I'm somewhat sceptical about gemming for hit-cap vs. EH.
It seems like with my testing, that the Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight is up 100% of the time you use IT and lasts for 30 sec. Would that make it a viable tanking sigil and be able to lose out on some def rating on gear?
I'm curious about this as well. Is it intended to be up 100% of the time? If so, this might be a good strategy, if it's a bug well that's a different story.
My question is: Do you think it would be beneficial to take the points out of Desecration and move them into Impurity? I was told by a fellow DK tank that the threat from the switch would be greater than my current build. I thought I would get some insight into the matter here before I put down the money :p
This is my current build that I am using: Unholy 10/8/51
This is my armory link if you want to see my gear: Armory
Since patch 3.0.8 I have had no trouble holding threat whatsoever and my build is a utility build. I MT and OT when needed, mainly MT. My threat is usually at least 5-6k TPS in 10 man's and around 7-8k TPS in 25 mans. I do not rotate in DnD either because I do not like messing up my rotations. My normal rotation is as follows:
I'm curious about this as well. Is it intended to be up 100% of the time? If so, this might be a good strategy, if it's a bug well that's a different story.
This post is from the sigil first hit the PTR, but the implication if that the proc is 100% and the tooltip is just worded poorly. I believe there was also a post on the PTR Bug report forums requesting a tooltip change.
From constantly following this thread I know that there's a lot of varying opinion on the issue I'd like to bring up, but I'd still like to hear what fellow high-geared DKs are thinking.
The issue that's plaguing me currently at this point in my tanking career is one of TPS vs. Survivability.
Now don't get me wrong, I understand our TPS swings wildly depending on spec and the encounter we're tackling, but as a former DPS I've always been one to watch my TPS like a hawk. My current build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) was an experiment in threat and honestly, gemmed to hit-cap spell with Misery, I had a solid 7k avg on single targets and most of our other tanks had issues pulling off me if I initiated aoe.
I'm not tooting my own horn, but rather I'm disappointed in how low my EH is. Our DPS can go full-blast with zero worries, but I'm somewhat sceptical about gemming for hit-cap vs. EH.
Am I doomed to low-health purgatory or am I missing something really obvious in maintaining a balance?
This is a pretty good question. The answer is no, you aren't doomed. You're missing Expertise. The way VoTW makes up to Tundra Stalker in TPS is by buffing the living hell out of Obliterate... Glyph, Sigil, Talents... all the marbles. But, even if you do this, your Obliterate is not going to make up for that 10% bonus if the boss is dodging it! Get rid of some of your hit (only need 8% melee, so yes, your ITs/HBs will miss once in a while) and make sure you get to that softcap. Only really use HB if you get a Rime proc or you're AoEing... everything else is IT|BS|OB|OB, and using Frost Strikes on KM procs.
My question is: Do you think it would be beneficial to take the points out of Desecration and move them into Impurity? I was told by a fellow DK tank that the threat from the switch would be greater than my current build. I thought I would get some insight into the matter here before I put down the money :p
Yes, do that.
Also, Gargoyle does nothing for you're threat encase you didn't already know, and the points in OaPH are garbage as well.
-Does Blood Tap or Mark of Blood healing add to you're threat at all?
-How often do you really use Blood Tap when MTing?
-How often are you really above 75% hp, because i MAYBE spend half of the fights above that. So i think the points in Blood Gorged would be better spent in Will of the Necropolis, unless there is something i am over looking.
I have never been anything but Unholy, so i think it may be a time to change things up, and i was curious about a few of those talents.
-Does Blood Tap or Mark of Blood healing add to you're threat at all?
-How often do you really use Blood Tap when MTing?
-How often are you really above 75% hp, because i MAYBE spend half of the fights above that. So i think the points in Blood Gorged would be better spent in Will of the Necropolis, unless there is something i am over looking.
I have never been anything but Unholy, so i think it may be a time to change things up, and i was curious about a few of those talents.
...Better Spent in Will of the Necropolis? Will of the Necropolis is the only reason you would ever go deep blood for tanking. Blood Tap is relatively useless imo, though it can help in a pinch if you screwed up your runes. Most people seem to go with either blood gorged or annihlation/lichborne.
-Does Blood Tap or Mark of Blood healing add to you're threat at all?
-How often do you really use Blood Tap when MTing?
-How often are you really above 75% hp, because i MAYBE spend half of the fights above that. So i think the points in Blood Gorged would be better spent in Will of the Necropolis, unless there is something i am over looking.
I have never been anything but Unholy, so i think it may be a time to change things up, and i was curious about a few of those talents.
-MoB isn't made for threat it is made for extra healing. I don't think it generates threat.
-I rarely ever use blood tap.
-I'm almost always above 75% HP.
-You should go something like this (51/13/7) and use the OB>IT>PS>HS>HS//OB>OB>HS>HS//repeat rotation. Just so you know, WotN is a must for blood tanks.
Well it's been *said* that a no disease rotation has been pretty successful, even though i highly doubt Blizzard had intended it to be, if thats the case, then i wouldn't care to go anymore into frost past 5 points, and possibly work my points around to be able to pick up Shadow of Death, in the Unholy tree.
Does anyone really know if no diseases is a better TPS gain, than you're typical IT>PS + Annihilation spec? Because if it is, i would be looking at a spec like this here.
Even possibly dropping the 1pt in imp rune tap for mark of blood. Or since we run with a blood spec dps already, putting those points into sudden doom? Unless, ALL my RP would be used up for RS only.
**Edit - Link in my post is incorrect and not the spec i was referring to.
It procs on misses, so it appears that it is in fact 100% buff on CAST of Icy Touch.
Yep. It makes you wonder why the hell they didn't just give us a stat-stick. Maybe something in the Sigil(Relic) code that requires it to modify a spell and not simply add stats? Either way, it's absurd.
About blood tanking with Blood Gorged... you're right... most Blood tanks stop at 47 (filling out the 40-level), and then use the remainder of the points to grab 2% STR/STA from unholy (Blood Sarth+3 MT), or Annihilation/Lichborne (Normal Blood Tank). Unless you have nearly best-in-slot, sta-gemmed gear everywhere, you're gonna be cutting the 50k breaths pretty damn close (even with WotN)... so that extra 2% health can help give you a buffer so you can save your cooldowns for the 70k breaths.
Edit: about no-diseases... remember, the problem is that we're tanks, and we need to keep FF up on the mobs if someone else isn't already doing it. Now, the blood rotation - IT-PS-HS-HS-OB|IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS will work without Annihilation, and it keeps your disease up *most* of the time... but be careful, don't ruin mitigation in favor of a bit of threat or EH.
-Does Blood Tap or Mark of Blood healing add to you're threat at all?
-How often do you really use Blood Tap when MTing?
-How often are you really above 75% hp, because i MAYBE spend half of the fights above that. So i think the points in Blood Gorged would be better spent in Will of the Necropolis, unless there is something i am over looking.
I have never been anything but Unholy, so i think it may be a time to change things up, and i was curious about a few of those talents.
1) Mark of Blood makes the ENEMY heal you, so no, no threat is made from this, and if it were, it would be quite minimal.
2) I don't see why people say they never Blood Tap as a tank. Tanks do damage, a blood tap is an extra heart strike + possible sudden doom, and this is just free damage you're not doing.
3) There are very few bosses that can instagib you as part of the fight mechanic (Malygos - you should take reduced damage from his breath, and Sarth), so Will of the Necropolis is better imo.
I've been a big fan of blood since day 1, and the patch made it worthwhile to spec blood for tanking.
I have mainly specced this (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) - 47/8/16 to get the most stam possible out of gear. I'm expertise capped (actually I have 36 expertise with Inevitable Defeat), so Blood Gorged doesn't matter.
Also, since I'm trying to progress in Sarth 3d 10 man, Will of the Necropolis is a BIG breathsaver to my healers, if I take a double breath from drakes, or if I'm tanking Sarth and I hit a high end from one of his flame breaths. I chose not to spec Spell Deflection because it's too RNG based.
Don't think my profile shows my gear, but my armory is:
2) I don't see why people say they never Blood Tap as a tank. Tanks do damage, a blood tap is an extra heart strike + possible sudden doom, and this is just free damage you're not doing.
I'm almost certain the original poster (and possibly the repliers) meant Rune Tap, not Blood Tap ... particularly since he's asking about healing from it, and Blood Tap does *damage* to you for a Death Rune.
Has anyone tanked sarth x3 since the patch as blood? I am currently doing it as unholy but since the patch ( not helped by the wonderful lag we now have) the nerfs to unholy have not helped. We seem to still be getting stuck at the same hump when drake 3 lands. Bone shield > ibf and ams still work ok , but amz is not so good now as i still take a 35k hit.
With the debuff I was around 29,900 hps , i regemmed some and put on some frost gear which should put me up to 32k. Still not high enough... So I'm looking for other options. The healers are trying to shield me too, but I would like to be able to save my self and not rely on that if possible.
Has anyone tanked sarth x3 since the patch as blood? I am currently doing it as unholy but since the patch ( not helped by the wonderful lag we now have) the nerfs to unholy have not helped. We seem to still be getting stuck at the same hump when drake 3 lands. Bone shield > ibf and ams still work ok , but amz is not so good now as i still take a 35k hit.
With the debuff I was around 29,900 hps , i regemmed some and put on some frost gear which should put me up to 32k. Still not high enough... So I'm looking for other options. The healers are trying to shield me too, but I would like to be able to save my self and not rely on that if possible.
If anyone has a suggestion please let me know.
You WILL need cds to Drake2+3 flame breaths, as you just don't have the HP to put up with it. Try to Bone Shield + AMZ -> IBF + health trinket if you have -> AMS, the reduction on Bone Shield + the low amount absorbed from AMZ should be enough for one CD.
3.) IT-PS-DS-HS-HS//HS-HS-HS-HS-(x)-(x)//repeat
*x= DS or IT-PS which would alter the rotation with the latter two.
[Spec 3 outputs 5-7k TPS.]
Multi-Target (No matter spec):
IT-PS-Pest-BB-DS//BB-BB-BB-BB-Pest-Pest
(Bloodboil will bring more group threat than spamming HS seeing as it’s possible it will always cleave the same target.)
[I understand most people use PS to start but IT at range gives the GCD to refresh to either PS or Pest by the time a mob reaches me.]
Current Issues:
• 6 runes = 9 seconds of single rune usage in perfect non-existent lag settings. This leaves 1 second to cast a single Death Coil which will then push back rune usage by .5 seconds and skew your next rotation. (This adds up after several rotations.)
• With using Death Strike, Vicious Strikes is almost a must to increase TPS. 2pts
• Morbidity soaks 3pts for RP usage that you seem to just sit on due to lack of multiple free GCDs.
• DRW does not transfer threat to us, right?
• Rune Tap uses 3-4 pts for a self-heal, is it *worth* taking for a pure tank build? (I know I want to keep it in my build, it’s healing me 8k. The only other talent to take at this point would be 2H Spec or Spell Deflection.)
• Subversion only benefits 1 talent, not two if you’re using the HS heavy build.
• Blood Gorged – healing intensive fights will make this talent very subpar (excluding 5 exp).
There are plenty of pros currently but I want to figure out the issues and tweak my spec more before those are listed. Blood has the ability to be an amazing tank spec but the only issue is damage mitigation, but hey, that’s why we have 30s with ~50k life and enough cooldowns to last the other 30 seconds (given you have trinkets.)
**UPDATE**
[Part 2]
Diseaseless Rotation:
OB-OB-HS-HS//HSx6//repeat
Thoughts:
• Frees 2pts from Epidemic
• 5 wasted points to Lichborne since we’re not using IT at all (single target)
• This lets us get to Necrosis 4/5 for more TPS with a 2% str increase.
Spec to follow tonight, will test out Sunday in the 10man.
*EDIT* I'll get these specs posted that I'm referencing tomorrow. Rotation 1,2,3, and Diseaseless all have difference paths in my mind talentwise.
Last edited by Zerath : 01/23/09 at 10:27 PM.
Reason: There were no specs posted, sorry. :(
Has anyone tanked sarth x3 since the patch as blood? I am currently doing it as unholy but since the patch ( not helped by the wonderful lag we now have) the nerfs to unholy have not helped. We seem to still be getting stuck at the same hump when drake 3 lands. Bone shield > ibf and ams still work ok , but amz is not so good now as i still take a 35k hit.
With the debuff I was around 29,900 hps , i regemmed some and put on some frost gear which should put me up to 32k. Still not high enough... So I'm looking for other options. The healers are trying to shield me too, but I would like to be able to save my self and not rely on that if possible.
If anyone has a suggestion please let me know.
I started last night tanking as unholy with the standard unholy/blood sarth 3D tank build. Almost brute forced it down a couple times, probably could have done it if we wanted to continue that route. AMZ is def not cutting it any longer as I got rocked to my surprise with it out.
Death gated out after 4-5 wipes and tried blood (my intention from the start was to start off as unholy and then try blood if things were not so great). Results were surprisingly well. Spellshatter rune, Spelldmg reduction meta, BoSanc, Vigil, and WoTN kept breaths in check really well. Having VB up for 30 seconds and AMS on 45 seconds is pretty strong. I was never really running out of things to use if need be.
1 shot him after the respec to blood. I'll def be going that route from now on.
The one thing that should be watched out for is melee following breaths since BB is a pain to keep up due to his immune being up so much (if you chose to brute force it and not take portals that is).
I've been reading and re-reading all that I can from this thread. I can't find the "cap" for dodge. I'm either missing it or it isn't posted. Can anyone point me the right way?
There isn't an avoidance cap, as far as I know.
Unless they nerfed it after that Rogue got 105% dodge or whatever in BC.
Stopped playing a while back, so I'm not sure, but I'm almost sure that there isn't an avoidance cap.
01/23/09, 3:29 PM
Similar Threads
