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12/30/08, 11:17 PM
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#1366
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Glass Joe
Orc Death Knight
Alonsus (EU)
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My brain hurts
Ok i genuinly have read through all 55 pages of this thread and I'll admit I'm somewhat blinded by science.
So if you don't mind ive got a few questions i though you guys could clear up for me:
1) Has there been any kind of concensus as to a Blood tanking build?
2)If there is one are talents like Rune Tap and Mark of Blood involved? If not why not?
3)Is Acclimation really useless? (or really a word for that matter? I thought it was Acclimitisation but hey...) I've had resists hit 230 which isnt bad without a scrap of resist gear on, thats handy isnt it? :s
4)Should I invest in the new Tanking two handers comign out next patch or just stick the Def rune on my weapon?
5)To Virulence or not to Virulence? I can't find a definitive argument
6)If Robocop and a minotaur with a jet pack had a fight who would win?
Cheers
Mike 
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12/31/08, 12:05 AM
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#1367
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Carminax
Ok i genuinly have read through all 55 pages of this thread and I'll admit I'm somewhat blinded by science.
So if you don't mind ive got a few questions i though you guys could clear up for me:
1) Has there been any kind of concensus as to a Blood tanking build?
2)If there is one are talents like Rune Tap and Mark of Blood involved? If not why not?
3)Is Acclimation really useless? (or really a word for that matter? I thought it was Acclimitisation but hey...) I've had resists hit 230 which isnt bad without a scrap of resist gear on, thats handy isnt it? :s
4)Should I invest in the new Tanking two handers comign out next patch or just stick the Def rune on my weapon?
5)To Virulence or not to Virulence? I can't find a definitive argument
6)If Robocop and a minotaur with a jet pack had a fight who would win?
Cheers
Mike 
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1) If you mean currently, no, the general concensus is anything but unholy sucks, unless you're in very early tanking gear where frost is as good/better than unholy. If you mean next patch, people are working on builds, but I guess it'll need to wait. Most versions don't go DRW or Blood Gorged, stopping at the tier before(and taking everything on that tier) then getting frost and unholy goodies.
2) Rune Tap is certainly a good tanking talent, I like it when I use an unholy/blood hybrid for sartharion tanking, it's excelent to heal yourself during a wall when your healer will take a few seconds to position and the bad guy is still breathing in your face. Mark of Blood not so much, it seems rather weak because it's not reactive but proactive, meaning you need to know when you will need it before you use it, and also MAYBE(I'm not sure I haven't tested in a long time) it only procs off hits or parries, not misses or dodges.
3) There's currently no fight where it's useful at least. The only fight that it will proc often and stay up is sapphiron, and frost resists is mostly unnecessary for the fight, even undergeared.
4) Both, see previous posts
5) Matter of taste, and spec. For unholy it's pretty good, for blood not so much. Also depends on your gear and how much hit you have, and if you run 10man or 25man(in 25 you'll often have misery or FF, in 10 not that much). I usually don't bother unless I have useless points, which rarely happens in the first 2 tiers of unholy, even when I skip morbidity.
6) 49.
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12/31/08, 12:10 AM
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#1368
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Bladefist
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I did a little experiment with dodge and defense since I got my Repelling Charge today. I took off both of my trinkets which are now the +84 dodge and +84 defense and compared dodge/parry/miss with each of them on vs none. The 84 dodge gained me 1.51% dodge according to the character sheet. The 84 defense gained me a total of 1.58 avoidance between parry/dodge/miss.
Am i missing something or is this accurate?
I have these stats before trinkets...
Defense rating of 652
Dodge rating of 440
Parry rating of 404
I hope this is enough information to analyze.
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12/31/08, 3:16 AM
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#1369
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Bald Bull
Orc Death Knight
Whisperwind
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Originally Posted by Zerath
Now. The Parry enchant is a solid 4% uneffected by DR. That's what makes it an amazing enchant for us still.
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That's only 1% more than Stoneskin Gargoyle; the +25 defense skill bypasses the diminishing returns that applies to defense rating. Swordshatter's not that amazing in comparison to 3% avoidance (including 1% omnidirectional/works-while-stunned avoidance), +~4% mitigation on IBF, and +2% stamina. Overall, I don't think Swordshattering is the better tanking glyph. If there were bosses that disarmed, that'd be one thing, but I doubt we'll ever see that.
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12/31/08, 4:25 AM
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#1370
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King Hippo
Draenei Death Knight
Dragonblight
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Defense rating doesn't have diminishing returns. Defense skill does not have diminishing returns. The parry/miss/dodge from defense skill has diminishing returns.
Thus, stoneskin is less than 3% avoidance.
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12/31/08, 4:26 AM
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#1371
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Bald Bull
Orc Death Knight
Whisperwind
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Originally Posted by Consider
Defense rating doesn't have diminishing returns. Defense skill does not have diminishing returns. The parry/miss/dodge from defense skill has diminishing returns.
Thus, stoneskin is less than 3% avoidance.
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Incorrect. Fire up the PTR and test it yourself. Stoneskin is a full 3% avoidance. Only ratings and agility diminish.
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12/31/08, 4:42 AM
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#1372
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King Hippo
Draenei Death Knight
Dragonblight
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Oh? I was merely going by what I had read elsewhere (the PTR hates me, else yes, I would try for myself). I do apologize for the mistake. There is still much merit to 1% avoidance over 2% stamina, however, the first generally being stronger from an item budget point of view. How to factor in IBF scaling is another matter.
Originally Posted by Yurtalpus
I did a little experiment with dodge and defense since I got my Repelling Charge today. I took off both of my trinkets which are now the +84 dodge and +84 defense and compared dodge/parry/miss with each of them on vs none. The 84 dodge gained me 1.51% dodge according to the character sheet. The 84 defense gained me a total of 1.58 avoidance between parry/dodge/miss.
Am i missing something or is this accurate?
I have these stats before trinkets...
Defense rating of 652
Dodge rating of 440
Parry rating of 404
I hope this is enough information to analyze.
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Defense rating is very, very close to dodge rating in terms of total avoidance, if that is what you mean. Defense is slightly weaker at same preexisting amounts - your character page doesn't show your miss % post-DR. But as has been discussed, defense is hardly a wasted stat after 540. Far from it. Depending on your dodge, it is very likely even ideal.
Last edited by Consider : 12/31/08 at 4:48 AM.
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12/31/08, 6:02 AM
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#1373
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Mage
Runetotem (EU)
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deleted
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12/31/08, 6:10 AM
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#1374
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Welp.
Prel
Blood Elf Priest
No WoW Account
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Building on Icecicle's VotTW/Frost spec, and taking a hint from the Frost DPS thread:
The current best dps rotation for Frost involves skipping Plague Strike and Goes (roughly): OB > OB > IT > BS > dump; repeat. You have to start with a Death Rune up to make it work but that's easily accomplished with Blood Tap. Since our damage and our threat are for most purposes the same thing, it seems feasible to me to skip Epidemic and adjust Icecicle's build to something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The idea is especially appealing to me because I'm generally second tank and as such DPS on a fair number of encounters. This really isn't too far off a standard Frost 2h dps build, while maintaining almost everything I could see you wanting in a Frost tanking build. The 5 points in KM are all floaters; distribute as you see fit. Some other stuff could be shifted around depending on need as well - obviously if you need to get IIT that takes care of that.
The big advantage I see to dropping Epidemic is not having any RNG factor with only 4/5 BotN, and getting a little bit of GoG. The biggest downside I see is diseases not lasting as long on AoE packs, but since you reapply FF constantly in this rotation, you can replace the BS with a Pestilence and call it a day. Post-patch Howling Blast + FF on all mobs is going to be very handy aggro, and it's not at all bad now. If I'm missing something huge with epidemic and/or a reason not to use the Frost dps rotation for a tps rotation, apologies...it's really late here.
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12/31/08, 6:21 AM
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#1375
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Don Flamenco
Blood Elf Death Knight
Hyjal
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Originally Posted by Consider
Oh? I was merely going by what I had read elsewhere (the PTR hates me, else yes, I would try for myself). I do apologize for the mistake. There is still much merit to 1% avoidance over 2% stamina, however, the first generally being stronger from an item budget point of view. How to factor in IBF scaling is another matter.
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Actually, given this, I have no difficulties swapping from Swordshattering to Gargoyle on a longer-term basis. It's 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina from my weapon, but the ability to regem away from pure +def is priceless to me. I'm quite literally sitting on gear upgrades in my bank that I can't equip--even with enchants, prismatics, etc--without going below 540 defense. I'll stay at or above my current defense level, while gaining stamina, avoidance, expertise, hit, and armor. I suspect this will work out to be a net avoidance/stamina gain in general, not just for me, once gem/enchant changes are taken into account.
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12/31/08, 6:34 AM
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#1376
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Glass Joe
Murloc Priest
Draenor (EU)
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Originally Posted by Gort
Actually, given this, I have no difficulties swapping from Swordshattering to Gargoyle on a longer-term basis. It's 1% avoidance vs 2% stamina from my weapon, but the ability to regem away from pure +def is priceless to me. I'm quite literally sitting on gear upgrades in my bank that I can't equip--even with enchants, prismatics, etc--without going below 540 defense. I'll stay at or above my current defense level, while gaining stamina, avoidance, expertise, hit, and armor. I suspect this will work out to be a net avoidance/stamina gain in general, not just for me, once gem/enchant changes are taken into account.
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Are you taking the new +def Sigil into account ? That will skew how you decide to gear.
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12/31/08, 8:23 AM
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#1377
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Mage
Runetotem (EU)
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On the previous page I've deleted a post, since it seems that what I've written on it was wrong.
Regarding DR for tank stats afaik:
1. Defense skill has no DR
2. Defense rating has no DR
3. Effects of defense skill on dodge/parry/miss has DR
4. Dodge and parry rating have DR (and also forceful deflection since it gives parry rating)
5. Direct increase on avoidance stat (from talents, NE racial, swordshattering ...) has no DR.
6. Agility has DR
But from what I can read on the latest posts of this thread, point 3 seems to be wrong.
Last edited by Lerciolas : 12/31/08 at 8:34 AM.
Reason: typos
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12/31/08, 8:43 AM
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#1378
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Von Kaiser
Dwarf Death Knight
Alleria
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Originally Posted by Lerciolas
On the previous page I've deleted a post since it seems that what i've written on it was wrong.
Regarding DR for tank stats afaik:
1. Defense skill hes no DR
2. Defense rating has no DR
3. Effects of defense skill on dodge/parry/miss has DR
4. Dodge and parry rating have DR (and also forceful deflection since it gives parry rating)
5. Direct increase on avoidance stat (from talents, NE racial, swordshattering ...) has no DR.
6. Agility has DR
But from what I can read on the latest posts of this thread, point 3 seems to be wrong.
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The thing is, we didn't have a complete answer to #3 prior to this patch, because there *was* no source of straight Defense skill, other than what's built in for our level. They had removed the talents from Pallys/Warriors that added straight Defense. Defense skill having no DR is actually very consistent with what we *did* no, though. Here's the list as the evidence to date has shown (using Alpha for less confusion with quoted post):
A. Base Defense Skill has no DR
B. Straight Defense/Parry/Dodge/Miss from any source (talent, enchant, racial) does not have DR.
C. Dodge/Parry/Miss from Defense Rating have DR - Defense Skill from Defense Rating does not (effectively only Crit removal)
D. Dodge/Parry Rating from any source (e.g. Forceful Deflection) have DR
E. Dodge from Agility has DR.
The question I haven't seen an answer to yet is this:
The formula for DR includes a "Cap" for each avoidance stat. Do sources of non-diminishing avoidance effectively raise this "Cap"?
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12/31/08, 8:59 AM
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#1379
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Glass Joe
Draenei Death Knight
The Venture Co (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zurai
That's only 1% more than Stoneskin Gargoyle; the +25 defense skill bypasses the diminishing returns that applies to defense rating. Swordshatter's not that amazing in comparison to 3% avoidance (including 1% omnidirectional/works-while-stunned avoidance), +~4% mitigation on IBF, and +2% stamina. Overall, I don't think Swordshattering is the better tanking glyph. If there were bosses that disarmed, that'd be one thing, but I doubt we'll ever see that.
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It's a bit more than 1% difference if you calculate it with real values. Mainly because the parry of DKs is already rather high.
Lets take a well geared DK tank before weapon rune with 22% dodge, 28% parry (with blade barrier), 7% miss. With those an attack has a chance of 0.78 * 0.72 * 0.93 -> 52.2% of hitting you.
With +1% to all these values thats 0.77 * 0.71 * 0.92 -> 50.3%. This means you are taking on average 3.7% less damage.
With 4% to parry its 0.78 * 0.68 * 0.93-> 49.3%. You take 5.6% less damage than without rune enchant.
In other words, with gargoyle you take about 1,97% more damage on average.
However, you also get 2% more stam with gargoyle. And that stam is also useful against magic damage or attacks against your back where parry does not do anything.
On the other hand, on fights like patchwerk 2% more avoidance is IMO > 2% more stam. And there is also the question of diminishing returns of the 1% dodge, parry, miss from the defence - if I use a 0.9% instead 1% reduction for gargoyle it jumps from 1.97% more damage to 2.35% more damage. 2.74% with 0.8% instead 1%.
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12/31/08, 9:28 AM
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#1380
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Glass Joe
Dwarf Mage
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by Crax
The thing is, we didn't have a complete answer to #3 prior to this patch, because there *was* no source of straight Defense skill, other than what's built in for our level. They had removed the talents from Pallys/Warriors that added straight Defense. Defense skill having no DR is actually very consistent with what we *did* no, though. Here's the list as the evidence to date has shown (using Alpha for less confusion with quoted post):
A. Base Defense Skill has no DR
B. Straight Defense/Parry/Dodge/Miss from any source (talent, enchant, racial) does not have DR.
C. Dodge/Parry/Miss from Defense Rating have DR - Defense Skill from Defense Rating does not (effectively only Crit removal)
D. Dodge/Parry Rating from any source (e.g. Forceful Deflection) have DR
E. Dodge from Agility has DR.
The question I haven't seen an answer to yet is this:
The formula for DR includes a "Cap" for each avoidance stat. Do sources of non-diminishing avoidance effectively raise this "Cap"?
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It's true that prior to 3.0.8 there was no direct source of def skill, my bad on not considering this.
However for defense it should be like this (DEF rating didn't give directly parry/dodge/miss):
DEF RATING -----(no DR)------>DEF SKILL------(DR)------>dodge/parry/miss CHANCE
E.G.
If I have 400 def skill or 600 def skill and I wear a piece with def rating, in both cases I get the same amount in DEF SKILL (no DR from rating to skill).
If I have 200 dodge rating or 500 dodge rating, putting gargoyle on my weapon will increase my dodge change less in the second case (DR from def skill to dodge rating).
If I have 200 dodge rating or 500 dodge rating, putting a piece with def rating will increase my dodge change less in the second case (a mix of the above).
As for the cap raised, that is a good question, sadly I don't have the answer
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