MissnL1nK

I hear alot of people talking about the threat in Blood being high but I have noticed a considable increase of threat while in an Unholy build since patch. This may be from the change to Runestrike but I doubt it. I have tried all 3 builds since patch and I honestly believe that my Unholy build right now has the highest threat of the 3. Possibly my play style may fit to Unholy better but this is just an observation and wanted to know if anyone is experiencing this also.

Here is the build I currently use: Unholy 10/8/53

My better smells like french toast.

 

Sheepsaywhat

I completely disagree with you assessment of the value of expertise, and I think most of the data presented in this thread disagrees with you as well. Until the soft cap, exp is one of the best stats for stacking. Granted, you can't completely ignore survivability stats, but exp gets to double dip in value until the soft cap is met.

 

Flamingcloud

I've seen more people claiming unholy's threat has decreased this patch. I assume the people that said it decreased weaved dnd in their rotation, and the people saying it went up did not. This however is the first claim I have seen that unholy has better threat then the other two specs, and to be honest I doubt that unholy does. My testing has shown unholy to be the lowest, however all my testing has been in an environment with BoSanc, so it doesn't exactly apply to everyone.

 

rigormortis

ok, you are obviously not reading what i am typing.


im not downplaying expertise and saying its a worthless stat. what im telling you, is that if you are raiding 25 man content, there are PLENTY of plate tanking drops, that carry expertise on them. therefore meaning, you do not have to gem for expertise.


you are acting like im telling you that expertise is a bad stat to have, it isnt. however, GEMMING for it, is. as you should be able to obtain the expertise cap through gear. im not at that cap, but im working on it. but im much happier knowing that i dodge more than 4% more of the attacks, then you do.

 

Sheepsaywhat

I suppose its a matter of stat priority then. I prioritize my TPS a little higher. I would prefer to have more of my attacks connect with the boss. This keeps my rotation in tact and allow my TPS to be less sporadic. This allows encounters to be completed more quickly, as the dps can push harder even if they out gear the tank. My healers have not complained about my incoming damage even on 25 patch as a hateful sponge. (Don't assume I have not raided 25 man with only one piece of gear to show for it, the RNG just hates me when it comes to drops :\ )

My apologies for making assumptions about what you were trying to say.

 

parvindk

People playing Unholy as tanks and claiming it has its TPS lowered might be competiting with Unholy DPS DKs.
Since the diseases don't stack anymore, this could explain why the TPS are lowered.

I'm personnally using a 24/5/42 template without any of the additional diseases (got an Unholy DPS DK in raid), with Runestrike + DnD + Bone Shield glyphs.

My TPS is as fine as it was (as far as I can tell), RS being macro'd to all of my abilities with the buff it and Necrosis received my TPS could even be better than it was, not being MT all the time makes it hard to gather intel about that, the only thing I'm sure of is that nobody ever aggro'd a Boss I was tanking, maybe the DPS in my guild aren't as good as they should be *shrugs*.

One thing that's sure is that I'd have a hard time playing without VoTW, going full blood didn't suit my playstyle.
I thought about the 23/45/3 spec, but I don't like losing what the Unholy tree has to offer, now that my guild recruited a good PalProt I might try it to spam Frost Strikes tho... I'd also need the Sigil of Awareness to boost the Obliterates (only 1 dropped in our 7 Naxx clears)!

I know it's irrelevant in this kind of topic but my spec also offers alot of solo possibilities and is fine enough for my raid needs, we downed Sarth 2D yesterday for the first time, I never was close to dying, I'll have to see how it goes when we finally try Sarth 3D.

~

 

Raedix

Rigor, 'people' like you are the reason the Elitist Jerks forums have gone so downhill in the past months. You are not only flaming people without having done a single bit of math or in-game testing to back up your claims, but you're doing it with disgustingly awful grammar, spelling, and punctuation.

So, while I (probably) shouldn't feed the troll, how has it been 'proven' to be better to gem for stamina and mitigation? Do you have some type of Universal-WoW-Theorem-Prover that you'd like to share? I'm sure the academic community would be ecstatic to adapt it to theoretical math. I'd love to adapt it to stochastics and finance, as I'm sure to vastly increase my trading bottom line with such an ingenious tool. Oh, right, you were just speaking out of your ass. Sorry 'bout that.

But regardless, I, too, gem for Expertise and Hit. Why? Because they're low, and my stamina and avoidance are high. Simple as that. You see, there are two goals as a tank: first, stay alive; and second, keep aggro. Now, you might be part of a guild with trash DPS that has no clue what they're doing... but I have Fury Warriors, Enhancement Shamans, and Arcane Mages pulling 5000-5500 dps breathing down my neck. That means, when I'm tanking, I need to pull around 2200-2500dps to prevent them from hitting a threat ceiling (and possibly pulling aggro during a transition). Now, if you think I'm going to be doing this in tanking gear without being hit-capped and expertise soft-capped, you're positively insane.

The two warriors that I tank with and I have relatively similar gear levels (both of them are slightly better-geared than I). Compared to both of them, I have more Health, higher avoidance, and about 5000 more Armor. They produce more threat - so I gem to compensate for my weaknesses.

If you have unfettered access to every single piece of ilvl 213 and 226 tanking gear out there, then, yes, you can put together a tanking set that gets you to both caps without having to gem for it at all. But, there is plenty of avoidance-only gear out there, and if, by the luck of the RNG, that's what has dropped most commonly for you, then you fill your holes by any means you are able.

Moreover, the fact that you don't understand gearing for threat is absurd. In every single previous tier of content in the past four years, tanks geared for survivability during progression, and for threat during farming. It makes the runs go faster, and keeps people awake. Now, it even helps with doing many of the tougher achievements out there. Maybe in Ulduar it will be advantageous to regem to pure STA. Maybe not.

Go back to the Official WoW forums. You don't belong here.

 

Tel

Gemming for expertise up to the soft cap is actually very effective. Not only does it provide more TPS (which if your guild doesn't do diddly-squat DPS you'll need), it actually decreases your burst taken through parry haste as well.

The fact you've come on here and are spreading misinformation, while acting like a complete asshat isn't particularly helpful. Unless you can back up your claim that 'LOLZ EXPERTIZE IS BAD GUYZ' I suggest you accept that people who lack hit/expertise would be better off gemming for it.

Can you?

 

Griefknight

There are roughly 9 non-set items from 25mans that have expertise on them and then there are only 3 non-set items from 10mans that have expertise on them. You won't be dodge capped with all the 25man expertise armor (5.75%) but you are if you have all the armor with the inevitable defeat(8.17%). I would imagine that without the inevitable defeat you won't be dodge capped from just gear and if you wanted the most optimal TPS then you would have to gem for expertise. I personally use mostly 8exp/12stam gems and I'm dodge capped as 51/13/7 tank spec.

 

Flamingcloud

I think that is unlikely, I would imagine less people have crypt fever now and roughly the same amount have ebon. Not to mention that the 3rd disease is only worth like 60dps for a dps class and a tank is even less reliant on disease bonuses(due to runestrike, and no bcb)

I don't really know why people mention unholy playstyle so often. On single target playstyle is nearly identical for tanks, mash some runes and if at the end you are near 100 rp do a dump or two. I mean I could see not liking bloods horrible aoe, but single target there is very little difference.

I think I reported every single one of his posts on EJ and he hasn't gotten any infractions so far. I don't know if the mods are not around, or if they actually find his posts acceptable. There has been a major increase lately in "Glass Joes" saying whatever they want, perhaps due to increased site activity fueled by Ghostcrawler referencing EJ so often.

 

MissnL1nK

I have also seen the same claims which is the reason for the post. My personal experience has been opposite of what people have been saying, maybe that is the beauty of playing a death knight. Although Blood did have good threat it is very spikey from what I have seen and is not constant, unlike Frost and Unholy which are. With Frost I did good threat but it was still lacking behind Unholy for me. My average TPS in Unholy since patch is around 6-7k TPS in 10 man's and upwards of 7-8k TPs in 25's on normal fights. On fights like Patch and Thadd I go for well over 11-12k TPS, as Unholy. It may be posssible my rotations as Frost and Blood are not as solid as the ones in Unholy, but I highly doubt this being the case. I would like to see the numbers though for the people saying thier threat is lower, as well as the builds they are using.

My better smells like french toast.

 

Vengeful

Not really. Threat capping your raid is just as bad of an idea as ignorning your EH or your Avoidance. Expertise is a prime stat until the soft cap if you're looking to increase your threat output. Rotations can only be optimized so much.

Gems and Enchants are the way they are for a reason, you're intended to shift them around depending on what your personal bottleneck is. If your DPS is better geared than you and they're constantly riding your ass on threat, gemming for expertise is an excellent idea (given other factors) so long as you maintain certain standards in Defense, HP, and Avoidance.

More HP isn't going to get you through that Enrage timer when your DPS is having to hold back because you can't break 3k TPS.

 

rigormortis

ZOMG! EJ nerds band together and attack the guy for speaking from his own experiences!!!! lawl


i have my top 3 dps pulling 5-7k on average, and i still dont have much trouble putting out 4-5k tps.

its calling learning to play the game, you guys should really try it sometime, lol.




admins: ban my account, i dont really care. i never personally attacked anyone, i just voiced my opinion, and then got bashed for speaking from my own personal experience, as being a MT for one of the top three guilds on my server. freedom of speach ftw!

 

Griefknight

I don't see how you are doing 11k TPS on patchwerk but thaddius increases your damage by 30%-80% depending on the situation. I was ~5.5k TPS as unholy when the patch was released in a 25man and I'm doing roughly 6.5k~ as blood in a 10man, I haven't tried frost in a 10 or 25man yet.

Rigor, doing 4k to 5k TPS is awful for a 25man raider. I don't see how your DPS don't pull off you, perhaps you're the OT for your guild but either way talking from experience without posting numbers, screen shots, or a WWS doesn't mean anything and your statement is instantly invalid. I recommend you reach the soft expertise cap and see how your TPS changes.

 

MissnL1nK

I was testing my threat last night in 25 Naxx. On Patchwerk I was staying around 10-10.5k TPS and I had to back off the MT, which was a warrior at the time. On Thaddius I was spiking upwards of 14k and averaging around 11-12k TPS. Threat on Patch is slightly lower but close to the Thadd fight. The reason for the threat on Patch is the constant Runestrikes I am able to do and runic generation in Unholy is really nice for that. I am sure I could have done more threat on Patch had I not backed off some. I just think some people are underestimating Unholy or haven't gave it a legit chance since patch.

My better smells like french toast.

 

Flamingcloud

There is no freedom of speech on EJ, you still aren't using capitals, and your grammar is horrible. Pointing out someone has 40+ expertise and saying it is a problem is fine, saying you wish they were on your server so that you could make fun of them is not.

Also 4-5k tps is not impressive it is actually quite embarrassing. Maybe you are the one who needs to learn to play.

 

Shike

Consider me impressed. 11k tps is something I'd very much like to have. I MT'ed 10m Naxx last night and am not happy with the threat at all. I think I have decent gear though, and don't think my spec is horrible, but I just feel like I'm missing something major. I averaged 3-4k tps last night. No paladins in our raid so buffs were a bit off. My armory is here.
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm starting to think my HP is too high(32.3k) and is costing me TPS because I gemed for it. I did 4k tps on Patchwerk last night but can't see what I could change to triple that to your range. Is there some big piece I'm missing? (7% hit cause I always have squids in my groups)

 

MissnL1nK

You are pulling 4-5k TPS and you want us to learn to play?

My better smells like french toast.

 

Althir

DPS in your guild do 5-7k dps, and you guys didn't kill Malygos until January?

According to wowprogress.com, <Havok> is 8th on Horde side alone, sporting an amazing "Sarth +1" and "We Killed Malygos" achievement list.

These forums aren't for speaking from your experiences, since your perception is likely a) wrong b) skewed or c) both. These forums are for trying to understand game mechanics, and what you can do with your character to best interact with those game mechanics. Incidentally, increasing tank threat is a good way to interact with game mechanics, often better than another (redundant) 300 HP or 0.12% dodge or whatever you think is better through anecdote.

 

Raedix

Let's assume you have [Glyph of Completely Free Death and Decay] and 5,000 AP and 3/3 Morbidity. It ticks for ~350, thus doing ~250 dps on average, or 1000tps on average - for free. Let's also assume that 50% of your damage comes from Rune Strike, and thus your TPS = 2 * 1.25 * DPS. Given these patently absurd conditions, in order to do 8k TPS, you would have to pull 3,050 DPS. In order to have 11k TPS on Patchwerk, you'd need to pull 4,250 DPS. For comparison, a top-geared DPS DK does 6,000 DPS on Patch... and that's without his attacks being parried 10% of the time (not to mention a whole lot more AP, Crit, and Damage boosting talents).

I have never once seen these claims of 8000+ sustained TPS, even on Patchwerk, with his free Threat from Hatefuls, substantiated in the slightest. Yes, of course your Omen TPS readout will spike that high when you throw two crit-SSes in the Boss' face, but that doesn't mean it's your actual, sustained, TPS value.

 

Megaera

You got bashed not for 'speaking from your own personal experience', but for ignoring the very forum guidelines that make this place worthwhile. Instead, you decided to 'i' and 'lawl' at us, but not really say anything. Signal-to-noise is sort of the primary concern around these parts, and you got bashed for being just so much noise.

In your personal experience as a "top three guilds on your server" tank you find expertise to be a poor mitigation stat. That's nice. Say that. Don't say 'expertise is bad', because there are several situations where it's invaluable. In addition to the threat benefits detailed in the posts you've chosen not to read because they disagree with you, hit and expertise open up speccing options. The currently very-popular Blood builds severely underperform short of hit and expertise cap not just because of threat, but because they're much more GCD bound than their Frost and Unholy counterparts. Misses and dodges in a one-rune-strike heavy rotation are far more punishing to a rotation than they are to glyphed ScS spam.

If you think expertise gems/enchants are under-budgeted, and therefore a waste of a slot, I suppose you could say that too. That's at least a reason (though likely an incorrect one). "If you need to get this stat, it's better to get it elsewhere due to item budgeting" is a helpful thing to say, "u r bad and so r expertise gems, lulz" is not.

 

huntcaudata

We are actually blessed as a tank class in that we only have 1 attack with increased threat. That means there's very little reason for us to not report actual TPS given a record of the fight. Damage Done * 1.45 / Time (and adjust for DnD if you're using it). I think we can pretty safely ignore the hateful threat bonus in any discussion about which spec is "better", and this method would also accomplish that.

On another note, I had asked a while back if anyone had established a priority/rotation for Blood tanking with and without Annihilation. I'd really love to see what others are doing because Inevitable Defeat dropped for me last night, and I'd very much like to try the spec now that I'm expertise capped.

EDIT: I momentarilly forgot about the change to Rune Strike. That makes it slightly more complicated, but still quite easy.

 

Siawn

I'm not sure why you think you have any right to talk to people about their gem choices. Does he have way more exp than I would gem for? Yes. Is he over hit by a fairly large margin? Yes. But saying things like, "you should NEVER have to gem for hit rating" makes you look ignorant. It makes you look doubly ignorant when you yourself are 80 hit short of cap, nowhere near the expertise cap, and yet you are still stuffing pure stam gems into every socket on your gear.

You even missed the socket bonus on your legs because you just threw two 24 stam gems in them like those are the only gems that exist. Beyond that, you're over the def soft cap, and yet you still have multiple def gems.

Please refrain from trying to tell people how to gear their character until you've mastered it yourself. Some people who read this forum to learn how to play might actually take you seriously because they don't know any better.

 

MissnL1nK

In 25 Naxx I almost always am above 9k TPS as an OT (on Patchwerk). My numbers are coming from Omen Threat Meter, which I monitor constantly. I will try to get a WWS report for the next Naxx so I can post some numbers that way it doesn't seem I blowing some numbers out my rear. I also want to add that I do not weave DnD into my rotation unless I am completely threat starved, which is something else many people do all the time that I do not. My playstyle is completely different from the other DK tanks I have played with, with equal gear, and I destroy their threat in raids. My rotation is very simple, much like the one posted here on EJ, I just do not weave DnD ever on single target fights, whereas they do. I am sure my build is also slightly different from theirs because I believe they are Frost/Blood.

My better smells like french toast.

 

Flamingcloud

Hmm? Our threat modifier in frost presence is much higher than 1.45. Also we gain threat from rp gains, and from some heals. So it really isn't as cut and dry as that.