Unholy DPS Discussion

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 10:58 AM

This thread's purpose is to further knowledge regarding DPSing with a deep Unholy spec. Since the new theme here seems to be granular and detailed threads, I figured this was a good place to start.

Unholy Basic Facts Cheat-Sheet

Spec:

This is the new cookie-cutter unholy build.

Rotation:

Note: This rotation requires the Scourge Strike Glyph. Replace the next SS in your cycle with a PS->IT when your diseases have fallen off. If you only have 3 seconds or less at SS1 (and ONLY SS1, since it's followed by two BS) on diseases, then replace it with PS->IT. Obviously, at the start of a fight, replace the first SS show with a PS->IT. Item(s) in parenthesis are optional and typically require 4pc T7.

SS1->BS->BS->SS2
SS3->SS4->SS5

Regarding using RP, the general consensus is that you want to dump RP and delay the next strike if it is going to push you over RP cap. Use Unholy Blight if it's not currently up, otherwise use Death Coil.

A typical AOE rotation:

PS->IT->Pestilence->D&D->UB

Recommended Glyphs:

Major:
Glyph of the Ghoul
Glyph of Scourge Strike
Glyph of Icy Touch

Minor:
Glyph of Pestilence
Glyph of Horn of winter
Glyph of Raise Dead

Stat Weights:
(Approximate, courtesy of Methods)

The following is raid buffed for 2H specs pre hit and expertise cap:

Stat	Unholy	Blood	Frost
1AP	1.0000	1.0000	1.0000
1STR	2.4847	2.5570	2.3650
1CRT	1.0207	1.2805	1.3212
1HIT	2.4631	2.7485	2.9114
1Haste	0.6046	0.6345	0.5619
1Exp	2.1660	2.8481	2.0712
1AP-R	0.5918	1.2693	0.9086
1AGI	0.8150	0.9164	1.0008
1Armor	0.0278	0.0294	0.0319
1dps (wpn)	6.3169	8.4347	9.5283
Spec	17/0/54	51/13/7	17/54/0

The new after cap (melee) hit and before cap exp conversion should be:

Stat	Unholy	Blood	Frost
1Hit	0.9167	0.9460	1.1139
1exp	2.3366	3.2320	2.4196

Regarding Spell Penetration:

Originally Posted by Fugazor

Spell penetration lower spell resistances of target. Almost all bosses have 0 resistances therefore making spell penetration useless for PvE.

Partial resists comes from level difference between you and boss and cannot be avoided in any way.

Spell AP Multipliers:
(Source)

Note: Numbers for DOTs are PER TICK.

Ability	AP Mult	Static Addition
Death Coil	15%	+433
Blood Boil	4%	+?
Pestilence	4%	+?
Death and Decay	4.75%	+?
Frost Fever	5.5%	+?
Blood Plague	5.5%	+?
Unholy Blight	1.3%	+?
Icy Touch	10%	+?
Gargoyle Strike	40%	+150

"Ideal" Gear:
(As of T7 -- Naxx/Malygos/Sartharion)

While I hesitate to do this, "is X better than Y" comes up too often. This should give you a decent idea of what to shoot for; in some cases, you may need to swap pieces for another to get hit/expertise capped depending on race. Please note this is strictly for a 2H unholy DPS build. A "(?)" after the item denotes reasonable sidegrades.

Helm: [Valorous Scourgeborne Helmet]
Neck: [Collar of Dissolution] (?)
Shoulders: [Valorous Scourgeborne Shoulderplates]
Back: [Drape of the Deadly Foe]
Chest: [Breastplate of Frozen Pain] (?)
Wrist: [Bracers of Lost Sentiments] (?)
Weapon: [Betrayer of Humanity]
Sigil: [Sigil of Awareness]
Gloves: [Valorous Scourgeborne Gauntlets]
Belt: [Girdle of Razuvious]
Legs: [Valorous Scourgeborne Legplates]
Feet: [Bladed Steelboots]
Ring: [Ruthlessness]
Ring: [Ring of Invincibility] (?)
Trinket: [Bandit's Insignia] (?)
Trinket: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

Just as a note, there is a reason I do not use the T7 chestpiece. It is the worst itemized piece in the entire set for a 2H build (though haste is pretty good for DW).

Trinket AP Equivalence:
(As of T7 -- Naxx/Malygos/Sartharion)

Originally Posted by Stoical

It's probably a good idea to get some updated math on trinkets in here. So as to avoid reinventing the wheel, I'm using Yo!'s formulas on the trinkets from the enhancement shaman threads; there's a nice post on the Enhance TTT where you can see those formulas and someone kindly even put Yo!'s formulas into a convenient Google Document where you can replace the EP values with our own relevant values.

The most recent solid EP values I've seen are in Method's 12/16/08 post in this thread for Unholy+Ghoul. His numbers assume you're below expertise cap, at melee hit cap, but not at spell hit cap. I like those assumptions as it's really easy to hit melee hit cap without trying so I don't like overvaluing items with hit by assuming I'm under melee hit cap. The numbers in the DK TTT post are way outdated and, in my opinion, pretty off. Method's numbers are:

AP: 1; Str: 2.792; Crit: 1.176; Hit: 1.12497; Haste: 0.8464; Exp: 2.5835; AP-R: 0.7165; Agi: 0.9231; Armor: 0.0278.

Using those numbers in Yo!'s formulas gives the following top 10 list:

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] - 530.48
[Fury of the Five Flights] - 310 (320 would be on-target full-time, so this one is arguable and generally viewed as lower in practice than Bandit's Insignia)
[Bandit's Insignia] - 290.76
[Mirror of Truth] - 265.45
[Loatheb's Shadow] - 210.45
[Grim Toll] - 191.4247
[Incisor Fragment] - 182.75
[Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood] - 180.4
[Meteorite Whetstone] - 162.18
[Mark of Norgannon] - 150.41

[Extract of Necromantic Power] has a 15s internal cooldown and affliction locks generally say it procs every 20s. I suspect we'll see it proc about every 30s, although if someone with it can correct that with dummy test numbers, please feel free. Given that Bandit's Insignia procs about every 50s and the proc is buffed in the same way, I'll just use Yo!'s formula for Bandit's Insignia with substituted values and EP values:

(95*1.176)+[(1+.34)*(788+1312)/2]/30 * 2 = 205.52

If those assumptions are correct, it's not terrible, but it's not very good either. If those assumptions are slightly off and it procs a bit more, it could easily move above Loatheb's Shadow into #5 after Card, Fury, Bandit's, and Mirror.

FAQ:

Q: How much DPS should I be doing? <Here> is my armory/WWS/WMO.
A: This type of question is heavily frowned upon. The answer depends on gear, skill, group comp, the skill of others in your raid, and a million other factors for that specific fight. In fully endgame gear (meaning almost everything is best-in-slot) some unholy 2H DKs are able to dish out 5.5k+ dps.

Q: What presence should I DPS in for PVE?
A: Generally speaking, blood. As unholy 2H, you have lots of free time between attacks due to the nature of the cycle; this allows you to sit in blood presence and get the most out of each. Also, you already have unholy aura (at least, you should) for the movement speed. There ARE some specs which prefer unholy presence, namely 2H frost (for extra GCDs, to get extra frost strikes in before diseases wear off), but the vast majority of PVE DPS specs prefer blood presence.

Q: When is the best time to use Gargoyle?
A: Gargoyle actually gets it haste and other stats from its owner. Recent tests suggest that the best time to use gargoyle is actually DURING (meaning cast it while you already have the buff) a bloodlust, at a point when as many of your procs/cooldowns are available. Just keep in mind in its current state that the gargoyle's 13k or so hp disappear VERY quickly in AOE fights, so you have to balance the ability to gain buffs versus it dying.

Q: Why is everyone saying the hit cap now is 8%? It was 9% in BC!
A: The rogue and hunter threads have put a lot of time into this, and have proven the current phyiscal hit cap is 8%. The spell hit cap remains at 17%. As such, make sure you shoot for about 263 hit rating instead of 295.

Q: What's the best horde/alliance race for PVE?
A: For horde, orc is best hands-down. 5 expertise to a weapon skill, a 322 AP "trinket" every 2 minutes with no MS effect anymore, and 5% more pet damage (works on ghouls, gargoyles, and DRW). Slap yourself if you're a raider, play horde, and didn't pick an orc.

For alliance, you can really choose between Human, Dwarf, and Draenei depending on your guild's needs and personal preferences. Strictly speaking in terms of ilvl points saved with a single weapon type, Dwarf is the best, due to the +5 expertise to maces instead of the human's +3 to maces/swords. Humans are more versatile however, and the Draenei hit aura has raid implications (if your raid doesn't have enough hit auras).

Q: Is there any point in picking up Ebon Plague if I already have a moonkin or warlock with imp COE in the raid?
A: An emphatic "YES"! Warlocks will flat out lose dps applying COE, and moonkin cannot typically spread the debuff to multiple targets as well as we can.

Q: Is Unholy Blight really worth getting?
A: While you wont see numbers as large, you need to keep in mind that UB has a higher base damage AND AP multiplier than DC. Sure, it can't crit, but it scales MUCH better.

Original stuff:

I guess I'll kick off the discussion as well. After clearing Naxx-25 and Sarathion twice, I've noticed some interesting things...

-Ghoul survivability seems to have increased dramatically. It appears they have given them the same avoidance they gave to hunter and warlock pets. While you can still expect it to die fairly often, as long as you're smart about which kinds of packs you summon them on (for example, the Warriors that whirlwind at the beginning of the Death Knight wing are not a good idea) you can expect to make use of it. This is especially true on bosses.

-I remember having a discussion in the old forum with Zurai about Gargoyle, and that I was told it never melee'd. Well, either it was changed back or WWS is lying. Also, WWS often doesn't count ghoul damage... note that I had it out all of patchwerk and its isn't shown at all in WWS (and the significant damage was not awarded to me). On patchwerk I only used it once (still had my bars messed up and spent a good 30 seconds realizing it wasn't on my bars and then fishing in the spellbook for it, further gimping my DPS), and it did 22 casts and 3 melee swings, not the ideal 25-26 casts people were mentioning. This doesn't make Gargoyle useless... it's still an amazing talent. But perhaps it will put it closer to being in line with DRW for blood.

-I have found the best time to use Empowered Rune Weapon is about 40 seconds into a gargoyle, after you have just applied diseases. This usually allows you to sneak in an extra scourge strike and get a damage boost.

-Gargoyle damage appears (I can't confirm 100%, but it's something I believe I've seen) to be based on AP when you first used it. So, like a DOT, it's damage is based on when it as cast...meaning you should probably use it at the end of your AP cooldowns, so you can sneak in an extra death coil or two with higher AP.

-I feel we may have undervalued outbreak's worth. While virulence is good, I find myself using pestilence and bloodboil quite a bit, even on some boss fights. That being said, on a pure burn fight like patchwerk, Virulence is still better hands-down.

blair · 11/20/08, 11:27 AM

I believe it was in the initial wotlk talent preview thread that I read Death Coil is actually a better use of RP over UB until a certain gear level assuming single mob dps (and my leveling has currently proven that correct, at least so far). Are you finding that to be a good assessment having experienced several 25-mans, or have you already surpassed that "threshold" making UB better in that situation?

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by blair

I believe it was in the initial wotlk talent preview thread that I read Death Coil is actually a better use of RP over UB until a certain gear level assuming single mob dps (and my leveling has currently proven that correct, at least so far). Are you finding that to be a good assessment having experienced several 25-mans, or have you already surpassed that "threshold" making UB better in that situation?

I personally used Death Coil almost exclusively on single-target boss encounters. That being said, looking at WWS, it would certainly have been better DPS to use a UB every 20 seconds... for 60 RP at an average of 214 per tick I would have gotten 214*20 = 4280 damage, which is basically like a guaranteed crit on deathcoil. Just from comparing the damage it did for me, you can see that UB does more damage per RP than DC. HOWEVER, UB requires you to be in close proximity to the boss at all times, and on some boss fights that isn't always possible.

Solithaira · 11/20/08, 11:40 AM

Could you please post the WWS if possible? I'm interested in looking at a breakdown of how unholy performed during the fights.

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 11:51 AM

I did have it in the main post, but here it is again, since it was kind of hidden away.

Xyrm - Naxx 25.

Unfortunately, my armory page has my tanking gear up for whatever reason (but my DPS spec), so you wont be able to see the gear I was wearing. My DPS was also subpar, as I was experimenting and messing with my UI a lot.

Andread · 11/20/08, 12:17 PM

From the compendium, "Please note that you should only have one Unholy DK in the raid at a given time. Ebon Plague does not stack, and will only count as a third disease for strike damage to the DK that applied it.". Am I reading this correctly that a raid with two unholy DKs will leave one of them with only two diseases?

This could be quite a pain since that third disease is an important part of unholy's damage.

calisti · 11/20/08, 12:18 PM

Zurm, I'm assuming you're using the standard PS --> IT --> BS --> BS --> SS x4 rotation for single targets. Is this correct?

Solithaira · 11/20/08, 12:29 PM

Yes Andread at the moment if you have two Unholy DK's, only the first one of them that applies a disease will benefit from ebon plague.

tedv · 11/20/08, 12:40 PM

Looking over the WWS, the one thing that jumps out is the importance of 5/5 Necrosis. You have three points in the talent and it accounted for 2% of your damage, both overall and in the Patchwerk kill. That's 0.66% extra DPS per point. If you compare the value of Outbreak or Virulence, they don't even come close. Plague Strike was 2% of your damage as well, so getting a 10% increase per point on 2% is really bad. (It's 0.2%, in fact.) This is better when you account for Pestilence and Blood Boil damage, but even in AoE pulls, Outbreak won't beat Necrosis until the total damage from Outbreak + Pestilence + Plague Strike is more than 6.6% of your total damage. Looking at Gluth, Noth, and Gothik, this was not the case. But it might have been on trash.

On the other hand, Virulence might be better than Necrosis. The 1% hit only really matters for Icy Touch and Death Coil, but these accounted for 13% of your Patchwerk damage. Even roughly assuming a 1% DPS increase on these spells from 1% hit means you gain 1.3% per point spent, which is twice as good as Necrosis. I realize I'm doing fuzzy math here, but I believe the orders of magnitude of these values is enough to draw some conclusions. Basically Virulence > Necrosis > Outbreak. Assuming you're not spell hit capped, which seems unlikely.

I'm noticing you cast 12 Plague Strikes and Icy Touches in a 4 minute Patchwerk kill, which works out to exactly one every 20 seconds. So I conclude you're not using the Scourge Strike glyph? From the quick and dirty numbers I ran, it looked like the glyph would on average convert one plague strike + icy touch pair into a Scourge Strike every 40 seconds (and also cost you 5 runic power). Looking at the WWS, here's the Damage change from using the glyph:

-1 Icy Touch: 1500
-1 Plague Strike: 860 (plus 20% times 12 seconds times 5% of total DPS per point of desecration)
-1/8 Death Coil: 3200/8 = 400
+1 Scourge Strike: 3100

Not accounting for Desecration, this is a net gain of 340 damage every 40 seconds, or 8.5 DPS. Lets assume that with less fumbling, you'd do 2900 DPS on patchwerk (WWS listed 2867). That means using the scourge strike glyph to reduce plague strikes would also cost you 348 damage (over 40 seconds) per point of desecration. So the glyph would be a net loss with even one point.

This brings me to the next question. Is it possible to build an Unholy spec that shifts points from Desecration into other equivalent talents so that the Scourge Strike glyph can be used? First, a quick estimation of Desecration in a typical 1 plague strike per 20 second rotation says each point provides 12% uptime of a 5% damage buff, which is a 0.6% damage increase. This is worse than Necrosis and Virulence, but not by much. It's not a BAD talent per se.

Here's a 17/0/53+1 build that contains all DPS talents better than Desecration and all mandatory raiding talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Given that the scourge strike glyph is roughly as much damage as that single point in Desecration, you can spend that last point somewhere else. The options are:

Improved Icy Touch
Outbreak
Night of the Dead

Icy touch was 3.2% of your Patchwerk damage, so improved Icy Touch should give you a 0.32% increase. Plague Strike was 2% of your damage, but Scourge Strike glyph means you cast it half as often, so Outbreak will be a 0.1% DPS increase, although more on AoE packs. I have no idea how to model Night of the Dead, but my intuition is that it is bad. So strangely it seems like 1/3 Improved Icy Touch is the optimal single target choice over 1/5 Desecration. Now 1/3 Outbreak will beat 1/3 Improved Icy Touch for AoE situations, but you won't be using Scourge Strike on AoE pulls anyway, meaning Desecration will be the winner there.

Of course, all of this hinges on two assumptions. First, that if we aren't using Glyph of Scourge Strike, we can't replace it with one that increases our DPS. (I believe this assumption is true.) And second, using Glyph of Scourge Strike reduces the number of Plague Strike / Icy Touch combos by 50%. I'll probably have to spend some time on a training dummy to determine that.

All that said, what other glyphs should we be using? Useful glyphs for increasing damage include:

Icy Touch (net +650 damage according to WWS, so 32 DPS without Scourge Strike Glyph or 16 DPS with it)
Scourge Strike (discussed in detail above)
Plague Strike (Net +170 damage, so 8.6 DPS without Scourge Strike Glyph and 4.3 DPS with it)
Glyph of the Ghoul (Estimated 16 DPS gain)

It's possible that losing 16 DPS on the Icy Touch glyph isn't worth the Scourge Strike glyph. Using scourge strike glyph lets us shift a point from Desecration to Improved Icy Touch for a net gain of around 9 DPS, but we implicitly lose 16 from casting fewer Icy Touches and therefore losing more runic power from the Icy Touch glyph.

The other thing I've missed in this analysis is that Scourge Strike Glyph will get you around 95% disease uptime rather than 90%, which should account for a 5.5% increase in damage from Blood Plague, Frost Fever, and Wandering Plague (currently 16% of the total DPS according to the WWS). That's a net gain of .88% DPS, or 25.

Anyway, these numbers are all very close, much closer than the margin of error. But I feel like we should run some dummy tests using Glyphs for Icy Touch + Scourge Strike + Ghoul. It could be a small net gain in damage.

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by calisti

Zurm, I'm assuming you're using the standard PS --> IT --> BS --> BS --> SS x4 rotation for single targets. Is this correct?

Yes. With RP dumps between the 1st and 2nd SS, as well as after the 4th.

Originally Posted by tedv

Looking over the WWS, the one thing that jumps out is the importance of 5/5 Necrosis.

...

I'm noticing you cast 12 Plague Strikes and Icy Touches in a 4 minute Patchwerk kill, which works out to exactly one every 20 seconds. So I conclude you're not using the Scourge Strike glyph? From the quick and dirty numbers I ran, it looked like the glyph would on average convert one plague strike + icy touch pair into a Scourge Strike every 40 seconds (and also cost you 5 runic power).

...

This brings me to the next question. Is it possible to build an Unholy spec that shifts points from Desecration into other equivalent talents so that the Scourge Strike glyph can be used? First, a quick estimation of Desecration in a typical 1 plague strike per 20 second rotation says each point provides 12% uptime of a 5% damage buff, which is a 0.6% damage increase. This is worse than Necrosis and Virulence, but not by much. It's not a BAD talent per se.

Tedv, one thing to keep in mind is my gear. Most my armor is still quest blues, but I have one of the most powerful weapons in the game. This skews the value of necrosis, because I have a VERY powerful weapon but low AP to boost non-strike damage.

Regarding the SS glyph, it was already mentioned that due to the fact that it's unreliable, you would inevitably lose disease uptime and would require FAR too much attention devoted to the rotation, especially when you already have to deal with encounters and micro-manage a ghoul. I have absolutely no desire to use it in it's current state.

In terms of desecration, yes... I could pull the points from there and put them elsewhere. Possibly necrosis. An excellent suggestion, something I will look into.

As a side note, the armory page has re-updated with my raid gear for that run, though the crit and AP values are for some reason low compared to the paper doll in-game.

tedv · 11/20/08, 1:46 PM

So what Glyphs are you using right now then? Icy Touch, Plague Strike, and Ghoul?

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

So what Glyphs are you using right now then? Icy Touch, Plague Strike, and Ghoul?

Icy Touch, Plague Strike (might change this to something like Ghoul, PS's dmg is so low it seems almost pointless), and Bone Shield.

I picked bone shield because it offers a 2% static damage buff... having an extra charge on it has proved handy in many encounters with AoE damage, allowing me to usually rebuff it only during periods when I can't dps. In addition, I also tank the occasional heroic or OT Naxx-10, so its helpful not to have to switch my glyphs all the time.

Edenfall · 11/20/08, 2:14 PM

To be honest: There is currently no third major glyph with the potential to up dps more than [Glyph of Scourge Strike]. It has the potential of much more damage, because it might proc, which is better than facerolling the Auction House for a third major glyph.

If I recall correctly, the gain of PS+IT is 5 more RP and a max 60% chance for Desecration proc, increasing all damage by 5% for 12 seconds. Now, 5 RP sounds like a sorry trade for a continuous SS nukage, and an extra GCD (for whatever might happen; disregards the theorycrafting principle of ideal conditions, hence making this a practical tip ...for a possible advantage (GCD for interrupt with Strangulate f.ex?)). And a 60% chance of an (unreliable) proc of Desecration is a poor guess, especially if you spec away from Desecration and to Necrosis (which I strongly recommend). Desecration may as well, in theory, never proc.

It is no secret that Death Knight is a difficult class to master. At least, I think so, and I reckon I am not alone about that. But the facts are that [Glyph of Scourge Strike] has a 25% chance of, regardless of good or bad human playing:
- Increasing your damage output by needing to PS+IT less often and giving you SS instead
- Liberating one extra GCD every now and then
- and saving your time at the Auction House...

In time, when DDing as a Death Knight, it may be much easier to master the different to-do's while in battle. Simply adding checkDiseaseTimers in front of PS+IT should be easy enough to master over time.

Although, hopefully there will be launched or discovered a better damage dealing glyph for DK raiders, as time passes by.

May I ask what addons you have used to far, and how you have experienced them?

• Zurm · 11/20/08, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Edenfall

It is no secret that Death Knight is a difficult class to master. At least, I think so, and I reckon I am not alone about that. But the facts are that [Glyph of Scourge Strike] has a 25% chance of, regardless of good or bad human playing:
- Increasing your damage output by needing to PS+IT less often and giving you SS instead
- Liberating one extra GCD every now and then
- and saving your time at the Auction House...

You aren't listening to what I'm saying. Sure, it "allows you" to replace a PS+IT with a scourge strike. However, it has a 32% chance to NOT proc AT ALL in a 4x SS rotation. and when it does proc, doesn't mean it will save you. It has to proc every 18 seconds, or you are SOL. And, when it DOESN'T proc, you will usually have to wait 3-5 seconds for runes to come off cooldown so you can re-apply diseases. Those 3-5 seconds are a time where you are doing reduced ability damage (not just strikes... DC/UB too due to a lack of ebon plague) AND are missing on diseases that even in my fairly bad gear tick for just under 600 in a raid situation.

The SS glyph would be good if it was reliable, or was predictable in some way. Right now, its just good for one thing: a CHANCE to make your diseases tick longer on a boss with a lot of running while you can't be on the boss. And in most of those situations, you are AoEing instead and can just refresh diseases with pestilence (not on your current target, but every other target).

As for my UI, I've been using this: Archive UI. It has DOTimer built-in (for dieases), and a HUD that tracks runes. I have a good computer though, and this is a very intensive interface.

Buanna · 11/20/08, 2:37 PM

I always thought a definitive work on Unholy DPS needed to include two things.

1. Should I Plague Strike/Icy Touch every rotation to keep up Desecration?

2. Is Scourge Strike more than double Blood Strike?