Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 11

• Zurm · 11/26/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by boomix

With SS Glyph do you still start off with your regular rotation? I have been starting same as always IT>PS>BS>BS>then moving onto SS. After that I know you can keep using SS to keep diseases up. At what point do you move back into BS or BB to convert runes to death runes?

The way I've approached is the following. If diseases are about to fall off and SS has not refreshed your diseases yet (usually I do this when theres 3-4 seconds left on disease timers) then my next U and F runes will be for IT+PS. The damage is lower, yes, but the disease ticks (and wandering plague that results from them) is significant. Once I get in teh swing of things, I usually follow the following roation:

SS -> BS -> BS -> SS -> RP dump 1
SS-> SS -> SS -> RP dump 2

Where I can replace any SS with an IT/PS as needed. You'll have to do 2x BS every two rune cooldowns to put death runes up for an extra SS.

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/26/08, 11:12 AM

I was Frost till today. I've made a spreadsheet to compare all talent builds. Everything is included, but I kinda guessed DRW, Gargolye and the Ghoul.
You don't use UB during Gargoyle?

Davia · 11/26/08, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Those stat weights in the DPS compendium thread are UP TO cap. Once you have the 9% hit to be capped on specials, you really don't need any more, especially since virulence and moonkin will give you another 6% for spells and put you closer to cap.

On a different note, I bring a new WWS:

Xyrm - Naxx - 11/25

Things to note:

-I used the SS glyph, and found it to be absolutely amazing.
-The gear I had for these runs was BEFORE I picked up my 2 pieces of T7-25 (shoulders/legs) so I didn't have the awesome two piece bonus and still had blue shoudlers.
-Once again, the ghoul was not counted for Patchwerk. I actually placed 4th on patchwerk with a total dps of just under 4100 (something like 4091) just under the two hunters and the one rogue. The lack of ghoul counting in WWS lowered my apparent DPS on many fights, though the ghoul did die or have lower DPS time on some. I almost always placed 3-6th on fights.
-I noticed I need more hit, so I'm targeting two specific upgrades in boots and bracers slots for my next upgrades.... [Bracers of Unrelenting Attack] and [Bladed Steelboots].

All of you number crunchers can go to work on this one... I didn't experiment much this week and focused purely on maximizing my DPS.

It's very odd that WWS for some reason is parsing ghouls into 100% missing and being dodged/parried. I noticed it in your Patchwerk WWS after noticing it in our guild's WWS from last night on everything except Noth (the first boss we did).

Zeldazan · 11/26/08, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

I was Frost till today. I've made a spreadsheet to compare all talent builds. Everything is included, but I kinda guessed DRW, Gargolye and the Ghoul.
You don't use UB during Gargoyle?

I find that it can be a risky thing to do. Because if you lose Gargoyle then you're out added dps and it's on CD. Though I have tried this out a few times and have been able to do it (popping Empowered Rune Weapon right after UB, of course) but it has to be ideal conditions. IE, mob standing in one spot and you have runes up to do damage right afterwards.

I have a bigger problem restraining myself from death coiling when gargoyle is up because sometimes I get into the mindset of blowing it when I can in my rotation and then a second later realize my pet up and flew away.

Sh4d0wfury · 11/26/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

The way I've approached is the following. If diseases are about to fall off and SS has not refreshed your diseases yet (usually I do this when theres 3-4 seconds left on disease timers) then my next U and F runes will be for IT+PS. The damage is lower, yes, but the disease ticks (and wandering plague that results from them) is significant. Once I get in teh swing of things, I usually follow the following roation:

SS -> BS -> BS -> SS -> RP dump 1
SS-> SS -> SS -> RP dump 2

Where I can replace any SS with an IT/PS as needed. You'll have to do 2x BS every two rune cooldowns to put death runes up for an extra SS.

I usually delay my Blood runes to the end of the cycle, starting with IT->PS->SS->BS->BS. Of course the start of the cycle becomes a SS after the diseases are up. However, different from you, if my diseases are about to fall of, I usually have both frost and both unholy runes refreshing. This way I can use one more SS in the hopes it refreshes the diseases, and if they do not the next runes become a IT->PS right after the diseases have fallen off. If the blood runes are death ones I don't waste a GC this way too.

RP dumps are somewhat confusing, I can't really rely on using them in the end of the cycle. I try to fit them wherever I can, just with the priority being the end.

On another subject, I got used to macroing Bone shield and blood tap at the same time, and I find it very usefull especially on heavy raid damage fights or Tanking. It's also 20 RP on the same key, which allows a HoW when RP starved.

Ten · 11/26/08, 1:25 PM

You can only use UB or DC during Gargoyle when you have full energy and at least one pair of runes about to come off cd. Popping ERW usually isn't the best idea until you're near the end of the timer since it means you'll just get a quick burst of RP but then have no RP generation at all for the next 10 seconds.

Melchior · 11/26/08, 2:50 PM

Does the Sigil of Awareness add a flat 420 damage per SS? Looking over Xyrm's latest WWS where he's using the SS glyph, it seems like that would be kind of a ridiculous upgrade for Unholy; at 534 SS's over the course of the run, he would have gained at least over 225,000 damage. Is it really that powerful?

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/26/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

Does the Sigil of Awareness add a flat 420 damage per SS? Looking over Xyrm's latest WWS where he's using the SS glyph, it seems like that would be kind of a ridiculous upgrade for Unholy; at 534 SS's over the course of the run, he would have gained at least over 225,000 damage. Is it really that powerful?

Yes, it is that powerful and I'm a proud owner of it

. A must have for Frost and especially Unholy.

Dwwimm · 11/26/08, 3:06 PM

Thanks for the fast answer, so, is there any stats weight available after hit cap ?

My white hits are still enormous part of my dps, so more hit can't be bad.

For the ghoul on patchwerk not showing on wws, i have the same problem, must be a wws bug.

Raveneye · 11/26/08, 3:10 PM

Something I have gotten in the habit of doing, but I have not yet seen mentioned here, is using DnD, Blood Tap, and Bone Shield to build up a near-full RP bar before the pull.

DnD is 20 RP every 15 seconds which is enough to offset the 1RP/sec loss for being out of combat. Then Blood Tap + Bone Shield add 40 RP every 60 seconds. Taunting or SSing rats or maggots will also build RP before the pull.

Going in with 80+ RP on the pull lets me open with Horn of Winter, top off with Blood Tap, and summon Gargoyle while running in, and then do my first PS-IT-BS-BS-SS rotation to get RP back near full.

Vontre · 11/26/08, 4:51 PM

A few notes from deathgraf simulations and general play here:

Reaping: Good talent even if you're using blood strike over scourge strike. I believe the reason is that it increases flexibility in maintaining disease uptime, I notice that my death runes sometimes get used on icy touch and plague strike. Simulations indicated this talent is a significant gain in dps.

Epidemic: Testing and simulation both indicate this is a must have. The 12 second disease build for max desecration uptime is 5-10% lower than a regular cycle. This probably has more to do with 12 seconds being a poor fit for rune refresh timers. At any rate both target dummy testing and simulations indicate epidemic is a Big Fucking Deal. (tm)

Unholy Blight: Sometimes this doesn't hit dragons if you stand at the edge of the hit box. Specifically Malygos, where I was trying to stand in the spark buffs. Be wary of this.

Anyway that's all for now.

Nekali · 11/26/08, 5:42 PM

Here is my WWS Breakdown for todays Patchwerk. Unfortunately the Ghoul is not merged, it added (fully glyphed, specced and buffed) about 600-700dps, yielding a total of ~4300 DPS. Did a few minor mistakes (including no boneshield) and forgot to put up a second gargoyle for the last 30s.

Wow Web Stats

I tested Night of the Dead and I can only recommend putting in 2/2. You get near 100% Ghoul Uptime even on Sapphiron (just get a new one after every bomb + free 20rp). This should provide a much bigger DPS increase then points in Outbreak or Virulence (spellhitcapped with misery anyways). Blowing up Ghouls with CE ist fun, but costly.
Is there a way to summon a new ghoul, when raid members are dead (i.e. instead of resurrecting them)?

Kroandar · 11/26/08, 9:31 PM

Very informative discussion. I do have one more question, or rather, I guess I am bringing it back into play. That of Necrosis.

Roughly, autoattacks account for roughly ~20% (upwards of ~25%) of an unholy deathknight's total damage output in raids. Even with weapon scaling, this appears to be roughly the same contribution in comparison to other abilities with gear scaling. My question is, assuming a base of 20% damage as autoattack, 5/5 Necrosis adds 10% shadow damage, or in other words, 2% total bonus to your overall dps. In addition, while perusing WWS charts, Necrosis tends to account for anywhere between 2-4% of overall dps of unholy deathknights. Example would be Xyrm and Nekali's most recent WWS showing Necrosis contribution at roughly 3% dps.

I understand necrosis will scale with better gear, however, will it scale at a higher rate in comparison to other abilities? Otherwise, investing 5 talent points for only 2-3% overall dps return does not seem to be a good investment.

Please provide advice or by all means correct me if I'm wrong, I'm merely theorycrafting here and would like the community's input.

♦ forostie · 11/26/08, 10:22 PM

Using Sartharion as an example it worked out that Necrosis did about 10k damage over the duration of the fight with 5/5, so 3/5 would have yielded 6000 damage, and, if I had points in Desecration like I do now, that the damage lost would be overcome by the 5% damage buff. Necrosis is free damage sure, but it doesn't really feel like a 5 point talent.

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/26/08, 10:57 PM

You can take 5/5 Necrosis without loosing anything. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
There are only three "free" points, since NotD is better on many fights. With movement and the SS glyph Desecration really isn't that great.