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Old 03/12/09, 3:12 AM   #1636
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by Drenhar View Post
Random question i'm having with my unholy spec:

I've been stuck at around 2300 dps for a long time. I even bought the darkmoon card greatness trinket, and it did very little to get me out of this dps. I'm using the cookie cutter spec setup recommended here.

I'm not asking "fix my problem for me", but i was just wondering, at this point, does it become harder to see a sizeable increase in damage? I'm just wondering if maybe i'm expecting too much. Is 25 man naxx gear required for unholy to push out 3k+ dps?
Even thought the previous answer was yes, after looking at your armory I believe you have more than enough gear to push out 3k+ DPS. The only answer I can come up with is your rotation or maybe very bad lag due to a bad connection. Given that you are 17/0/54 and have decent gear I don't see any reason why you aren't pulling at least 3k-3.5k DPS. I think thats what one of our recent Unholy DKs was pulling with similar gear just stepping into Naxx25.

Read lots and lots here, go to Ebon Hold and bang on the target dummy until your rotation is perfect. Also make sure to pop Gargoyle during your trinket procs to maximize your DPS.

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Old 03/12/09, 4:33 AM   #1637
Drenhar
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Azuremyst
Thank you for that. I was really frustrated; i have just about all that 5-mans can give me, and demise is not a horrible weapon. It seems like my dps stopped increasing as quickly as before around the 2100 dps mark, so maybe its me as you said. My connection is actually top notch, i can run the game on full graphics and still hit a smooth 50+ fps.

Is the PS > IT > BS > BS > SS > RP dump, then SSx3 > RP dump still the agreed upon best rotation? I've read this thread front to back just about, but I want to make sure that rotation wasnt old. How do you guys handle pestilence > blood boil? Should i do that during my runic dump, instead of DC or UB, or in addition? I think knowing when to use pest/bb and ub might be whats tripping me up; every second counts and I don't really fell secure in this rotation yet. (i was using a horrid rotating before learning about it here, thank you EJ)!

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Old 03/12/09, 5:51 AM   #1638
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
Foxx2405's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
I can pretty safely say that you can push out more than 3k dps before naxx 25.

I have to say that naxx 25 gear pushes your dps a lot higher ( be it through the combination of gear and buffs ), but i was already doing a solid 3500 dps in Naxx 10.
Your gear isn't full naxx 10 yet (you miss the T7 4-set bonus for one, which is a pretty big dps factor), although with the gear you have you should be able to touch the 3k dps on a good fight

As for the rotation the rotation goes like:

SS>SS>BS>BS (doesnt really matter if you use the 2nd SS first or the BSs first)
SS>SS>SS

Whenever your diseases have run out (in case you still have UF runes available) or when they are about to run out (few seconds left and no runes available for the next couple of seconds) You replace one of the SS's with PS>IT
Requires you to have the SS glyph of course.

Pestilence and Blood boil are only used on trash in which case you use a combination of PS>IT>Pestilence and Death and Decay

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Old 03/12/09, 6:23 AM   #1639
Mulgero
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by Niightblade View Post
Yes.
No. Depends what we're talking about here. Overall damage done during run, certain boss damage or what? I'm pushing over 5k dps on Patch. Hoovering around 3k overall dps during whole run in 10mans with no optimal group composition (and this is with frost spec which does atm with my gear less personal dps but thanks to raid buffs increases raid damage).

I'll disagree bit with Foxx for trash aoe if your tank is good use DnD while running to trash pack and then ps/it/pest afterwards. DnD will get damage multipliers once you land diseases but you will get several dnd ticks before you're even at pack + you will get dnd runes up for second rotation faster which might let you use them before they're dead. Also don't forget that you can easily do on almost every trash pack blood tap + pest/BB when all your runes are on CD.

Not saying it's easy but use flasks, str food, ac/haste potions, decent rotation and yes requires good 10man gear naturally.

Last edited by Mulgero : 03/12/09 at 6:43 AM.

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Old 03/12/09, 9:44 AM   #1640
methods
Piston Honda
 
methods's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
You'd be surprised how much 4T7 would help though. Depending on buffs, there is absolutely no reason an Unholy DK should not be near #1 in overall damage. Even with your gear you should be pushing the meters on trash and such.

Your single target DPS is very dependent on your buffs and how well you can perfect a rotation (and readjust it when things go wrong), ~100% disease and UB uptime, Nearly 0 waste of RP, Proc Timed Gargoyles, AoTD (optional) 5 seconds before the pull, your ability to strafe and do ranged dps during odd fights, using Pest when adds spawn and switching to a diseased target because of it, Etc.

I think that this is why I play Unholy. There is just so much to keep track of that you can be distracted by the lack of raid content while e-peening the meters and making fury warriors wonder why they are getting nerfed.

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Old 03/12/09, 10:58 AM   #1641
Stoical
Piston Honda
 
Stoical's Avatar
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Drenhar View Post
I've been stuck at around 2300 dps for a long time. I even bought the darkmoon card greatness trinket, and it did very little to get me out of this dps. I'm using the cookie cutter spec setup recommended here.
Are you? According to the Armory, you have Outbreak and On a Pale Horse, neither of which is part of the cookie cutter spec, because they're bad for Unholy PvE, instead of Virulence and Dirge. You're also 1% over hit cap and ~4% under expertise cap with a level 72 tanking ring and no enchant on your shoulders, cloak, chest, bracers, or gloves. Fixing those issues will probably help more than you realize.

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Old 03/12/09, 11:23 AM   #1642
Bullshifter
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Zul'Jin
I have a question for you guys- The assumption to date has been that the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond is the way to go. I've been looking over it and have to wonder, is it really, if you're not a jewelcrafter? Comparing it to the Agility meta, you'd have (assuming you aren't a JC like I said):

21 crit + 3% increased crit damage
16 strength (from 2x 8str/12stam)

with the other you'd have:
21 Agility + 3% increased crit damage
16 strength + 8 hit/crit (str/stam gem + str/hit or str/crit depending on pre-hit cap or not)

So essentially the question would be is 21 crit worth more than 21 agility + 8 hit/crit.

I guess either could be influenced by socket bonuses where applicable, but I'm just curious on your takes on it.

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Old 03/12/09, 12:09 PM   #1643
methods
Piston Honda
 
methods's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Bullshifter View Post
....
21 crit + 3% increased crit damage
16 strength (from 2x 8str/12stam)

with the other you'd have:
21 Agility + 3% increased crit damage
16 strength + 8 hit/crit (str/stam gem + str/hit or str/crit depending on pre-hit cap or not)
....
I guess either could be influenced by socket bonuses where applicable, but I'm just curious on your takes on it.
You are looking at maybe a 3 APE difference between the two when not considering socket bonuses. I can think of a few pieces that could easily make up for that loss. Most notably the T7.5 shoulders with it's 4 str bonus. Looking at some of the Ulduar gear there are still plenty of Blue gem slots with Str bonuses. I'd stick with 21 crit 3% crit damage personally.

It should also be noted that the more you are using spells the less valuable Agi gets. If there are any battles in Ulduar like Heigan then the actual APE value of agi will decrease for those fights specifically (and overall). That being said, it's really not that important as long as you have the 3% crit bonus.

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Old 03/12/09, 2:05 PM   #1644
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by Drenhar View Post
Thank you for that. I was really frustrated; i have just about all that 5-mans can give me, and demise is not a horrible weapon. It seems like my dps stopped increasing as quickly as before around the 2100 dps mark, so maybe its me as you said. My connection is actually top notch, i can run the game on full graphics and still hit a smooth 50+ fps.

Is the PS > IT > BS > BS > SS > RP dump, then SSx3 > RP dump still the agreed upon best rotation? I've read this thread front to back just about, but I want to make sure that rotation wasnt old. How do you guys handle pestilence > blood boil? Should i do that during my runic dump, instead of DC or UB, or in addition? I think knowing when to use pest/bb and ub might be whats tripping me up; every second counts and I don't really fell secure in this rotation yet. (i was using a horrid rotating before learning about it here, thank you EJ)!
Since you bring up the question of when to use pestilence and blood boil I must ask if you are talking about your overall DPS or boss DPS, and are you talking about your DPS in raids or in 5-mans, because this makes a significant difference.

Next time your in Naxx look at your DPS for each boss because in all reality overall DPS doesn't mean much.

Stoical also pointed out some things I had missed when quickly looking at your armory that you take a look at ASAP.

Pest and BB can't be used during a runic dump because they use blood runes and UB should be weaved into your runic dump once per 20 seconds, or every full rotation (2 rune sets).

Pest and BB should only be used when you are AOEing, such as on trash and would replace BS in the rotation.

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Old 03/12/09, 3:04 PM   #1645
Drenhar
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Azuremyst
Are you? According to the Armory, you have Outbreak and On a Pale Horse, neither of which is part of the cookie cutter spec, because they're bad for Unholy PvE, instead of Virulence and Dirge. You're also 1% over hit cap and ~4% under expertise cap with a level 72 tanking ring and no enchant on your shoulders, cloak, chest, bracers, or gloves. Fixing those issues will probably help more than you realize.
Sorry, i should have added "with slight modifications". Outbreak is bad? Good! I'd love to get rid of it honestly if that's the case. Pale horse... i'm a miner/herbalist, so i admit to making some concessions in the name of laziness and getting around quicker haha. The ring is being replaced with the kirin tor ring in a bit here, i just dropped 10k for the card so its just a placeholder ring till then. I'll get on enchanting out those items, thanks for the input!

Since you bring up the question of when to use pestilence and blood boil I must ask if you are talking about your overall DPS or boss DPS, and are you talking about your DPS in raids or in 5-mans, because this makes a significant difference.
Overall DPS really. I do a run and get beat out by a orc blood spec i run with (who doesnt have the trinket, and gear close to mine), and it depresses the hell out of me, then i go wail on the boss mannequin and get 2300 dps numbers out of recount, so i think im doing something wrong. But, i think what you guys said will help a lot. I'll respec, get rid of outbreak, doubletime my farming for the ring/enchants and see if that doesn't fix my issues. Thanks for the patience with me, im learning alot. Sorry this turned out to a "fix me" type of discussion; that wasnt my intention, but i really do appreciate it.

Last edited by Drenhar : 03/12/09 at 3:12 PM.

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Old 03/12/09, 3:13 PM   #1646
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by Drenhar View Post
I guess boss dps really. I hammer on the 80 boss mannequin and get 2300 dps from recount atm, which is depressing the hell out of me; yet i tend to do decently in overall, I just get the feeling my damage is lacking. I think some of the advice you guys have given me will go far though; i'm still learning. Thanks again for the patience with me.
Boss dummy DPS is way way different than in raid DPS. You have to factor in all the raid buffs you'd have and debuffs the boss would have. You'll always do less damage solo and the more people in the raid the better you'll do. I'm not too sure you have a problem with your DPS considering your gear and spec, because you'll do much better inside a 10 or 25 man.

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Old 03/12/09, 5:11 PM   #1647
Herrm
Von Kaiser
 
Herrm's Avatar
 
Gnome Monk
 
Kel'Thuzad
Andddd the biggest news of the new PTR build for Unholy DKs so far is....

"Desecration is now also caused by Scourge Strike."

...and we thought it was hard to find free talent points before...

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Old 03/12/09, 5:21 PM   #1648
Fugazor
King Hippo
 
Fugazor's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
Item - Death Knight T8 Melee 2P Bonus (Class: Death Knight) -- Increases the critical strike chance of Death Coil and Frost Strike by 5%.
Item - Death Knight T8 Melee 4P Bonus (Class: Death Knight) -- Increases the bonus damage done per disease by 20% on Blood Strike, Heart Strike, Obliterate, and Scourge Strike.
- 2 piece T8 is worse than T7.
- 4 piece adds 5.4% to SS damage with 3 diseases = 5.4% of SS vs 25% of DC per one SS = worse than T7 too

At least they seems to be better for Blood and Frost.

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Old 03/12/09, 5:28 PM   #1649
NeuroMedivh
Von Kaiser
 
NeuroMedivh's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Greymane
Sigh, still stuck with taking 3/3 Virulence. I hate the Virulence/Morbidity swap.

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Old 03/12/09, 7:10 PM   #1650
Bloodscape
Glass Joe
 
Bloodscape's Avatar
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Emerald Dream
well with 4pc t7 you can run a rotation like

BS>BS>SS>SS>DC>DC (80 rp gen 80 used)
SS>SS>SS>DC>DC (90 rp gen 80 used)

Glyphs = SS,DC,Ghoul

Real perk here is the 10 rp buffer, in the event that RNG screws you and you get not SS glyph procs IT+PS+10 rp spare allows you to continue your rotation no problem.

Obviously you swap in ps/it if your disease aren't up by the end of the rotation.

Now loosing the 4pc t7 the rp generated really drops short and u have to change the rotation.

Drop one of your glyphs for IT, most commonly drop glyph of SS....

IT>PS>BS>BS>SS>DC (75 rp gen 40 used)
SS>SS>SS>DC>DC (60 rp gen, 35 left over, 80 used w/15 spare)


So lets compare lets average the 4pc t8 into 5.5% SS dmg and the 2 pc is a flat DC +5% crit.

Well 2 pc t7 is a 6.7% boost to SS assuming vicious strikes + meta.
And 4 pc t7 gives an additional 35(25 needed) rp over the t8 rotation.

So lets compare I'll be using a flat number like 200% = 2 scourge strikes etc. Calculating the diff in set bonus and the rp change.

t7
Scourge Strike = 533.5%
Death Coil = 400%

t8
Scourge Strike = 422%
Death Coil = 354.4%
+1 icy touch
+1 plague strike


I suppose if the end result IT+PS > 1.115 SS + .456 DC then its a buff.

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