Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 111

Foxx2405 · 03/12/09, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Herrm

Andddd the biggest news of the new PTR build for Unholy DKs so far is....

"Desecration is now also caused by Scourge Strike."

...and we thought it was hard to find free talent points before...

The only place to take points from is Dark Conviction.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Thats the new build as far as I can see.

[e]

Originally Posted by Bloodscape

I suppose if the end result IT+PS > 1.115 SS + .456 DC then its a buff.

Its not a buff, but I doubt it makes much difference.

Whether the bonuses are better or not, the stats on T8 will be (unless something is wrong).

And you have to admit that the bonuses on T7 are pretty insane. They set the bar way too high. The 4-piece bonus adds 150-200 dps for example, thats quite insane.

claym · 03/13/09, 3:09 AM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

The only place to take points from is Dark Conviction.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Thats the new build as far as I can see.

While I agree you're going to need to leech points from Dark Conviction, I don't think you need to null them out.

I'd be looking more toward something like the following:
Wowhead Talent Calc

As you can see I've taken 2 of the points from Dark Conviction, but have opted to steal 1 of the points from Epidemic and the two out of Improved Unholy Presence. I don't see a reason to extend the duration of my diseases out past 18 seconds. Though purely anecdotal, I never experienced problems when epidemic was a full investment for 3 seconds largely due to my Scourge Strike glyph. After you cross that 18 second point you only 2 GCDs worth of time to get extra Scourge Strikes out to give the glyph extra chances, and since it's the tail end of your rotation you don't really have the glyphs to do it in the 20 second cycle. It just seems very diminished in value to me.

The Improved Unholy Presence is something I'm not completely convinced was a good leech of 2 points. You're only really gaining half the talent benefit in PvE since we do it in Blood Presence. And the 15% movement speed is good for you, but doesn't benefit the raid anymore (diminishing its value to group). I'm not sure if a 2% crit is outweighed by the added time on the boss from quick retreats and recoveries with Unholy Aura. I'll have to read more about the Ulduar encounters and see how much movement is moving out of range and then back in range, distances, etc before I can cement that decision.

Using 3 those three freed points from UH and two from Dark Conviction looks like a better build to me.

bathoz · 03/13/09, 4:03 AM

Two points for 15% movement is a good investment. My gut says greater that 2% crit. Even if you aren't getting the full benefit.

sun · 03/13/09, 6:06 AM

I think this is more pertinent : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My reasonning for this is that the only points you can put in UH comes from Dark Conviction, so basically :
- Impurity : I wish i could use Impurity, but 5% extra crits seems superior.
- UB : 1% crit on all looks better to me, since UB is situationnal and barely noticeable anyway.
- Imp UHP : the choice comes down to (+15% damage & +2% crit) vs (+15% extra speed/haste & -1s on Rune CD).

Also, trading 2% crit for 15% speed in Blood Presence doesn't seems right, the fight area are not so big that it really matters, the extra speed is about survivability for those lacking reactions time

.

UH tree is a bit bloated right now, and the Morbidty/Virulence swap doesn't help.

Hidden · 03/13/09, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodscape

So lets compare lets average the 4pc t8 into 5.5% SS dmg and the 2 pc is a flat DC +5% crit.
[...]
I suppose if the end result IT+PS > 1.115 SS + .456 DC then its a buff.

You're overestimating the SS bonus of 4T8:
No 4T8: 27% bonus damage, 127% of diseaseless damage total
4T8: 32.4% bonus damage, 132.4% of diseaseless damage total
Total damage difference: 132.4%/127%=1.0425=104.25%

So it's an increase of only 4.25% total SS damage.

From your conclusion you can see that it's a large DPS nerf even with the SS bonus overerstimated.

Carra · 03/13/09, 7:18 AM

Originally Posted by sun

- UB : 1% crit on all looks better to me, since UB is situationnal and barely noticeable anyway.

UB is being used in the default rotation so it's really not situational. And "not noticeable". Well, it does about 4% of my damage on a single target fight, that's quite noticeable and it only gets better when fighting multiple mobs.

Darkmoto · 03/13/09, 8:21 AM

The question to pose is if unholy blight is >glyphed death coil on a single target. Assuming the rp decrease glyph is still in and with the crit to death coil from the 2pc bonus.

I would think it is sitting at its current runic power of 40.

Herrm · 03/13/09, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Darkmoto

Assuming the rp decrease glyph is still in

It isn't, it's been changed to Glyph of Dark Death

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Darkmoto

The question to pose is if unholy blight is >glyphed death coil on a single target. Assuming the rp decrease glyph is still in and with the crit to death coil from the 2pc bonus.

I would think it is sitting at its current runic power of 40.

Glyph of Death coil is now +15% damage and there's no reason to not use UB und DC, it's not like UB drains all your RP plus UB is definitly not optional if you wanna max out DPS

Edit: Damn beaten

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 10:01 AM

Speccing unholy from blood in preperation for 3.1. I was testing ont raining dummy last night and ran into something that perplexed me with current gargoyle.

I would utilize gargoyle at 100 rp and the flying poo flinging monkey would appear. Ten seconds later I would get the gargoyle buff timing how long he had left. Then he would die withoin ~10 seconds instead of lasting for the 30 seconds indicated in the tooltip.

Is this something that changed when they nerfed gargoyle? Am I imagining things. The first time it happened I was trying to test out how much rp I could use while gargoyle was up, so I thought I must have screwed the pooch and let him die via rp draining. So I tested it 3 more times without using any rp abilities during it's duration.

NeuronRider · 03/13/09, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

Speccing unholy from blood in preperation for 3.1. I was testing ont raining dummy last night and ran into something that perplexed me with current gargoyle.

I would utilize gargoyle at 100 rp and the flying poo flinging monkey would appear. Ten seconds later I would get the gargoyle buff timing how long he had left. Then he would die withoin ~10 seconds instead of lasting for the 30 seconds indicated in the tooltip.

Is this something that changed when they nerfed gargoyle? Am I imagining things. The first time it happened I was trying to test out how much rp I could use while gargoyle was up, so I thought I must have screwed the pooch and let him die via rp draining. So I tested it 3 more times without using any rp abilities during it's duration.

You aren't using it like DRW are you (having come from a Blood build, as you say)?
It costs 50 RP to summon. You get 10 free seconds of uptime. Then it starts to drain 8 RP per second. As long as you don't run out of RP, it will then last up to 30 seconds. If, however, you are simply expending your RP per you normal rotation, you will find your Gargoyle to quickly die after the free 10 seconds, since you're likely to drop to 0 RP.

On a related note...I haven't actually paid much attention to this, but does the drain actually tick every second (as per the tool tip), or does it have a different interval? Anecdotally, it seems like it ticks off slower, in larger chunks. Could (very likely) just be me not paying attention though.

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by NeuronRider

You aren't using it like DRW are you (having come from a Blood build, as you say)?
It costs 50 RP to summon. You get 10 free seconds of uptime. Then it starts to drain 8 RP per second. As long as you don't run out of RP, it will then last up to 30 seconds. If, however, you are simply expending your RP per you normal rotation, you will find your Gargoyle to quickly die after the free 10 seconds, since you're likely to drop to 0 RP.

On a related note...I haven't actually paid much attention to this, but does the drain actually tick every second (as per the tool tip), or does it have a different interval? Anecdotally, it seems like it ticks off slower, in larger chunks. Could (very likely) just be me not paying attention though.

Mmmm no, summoning him with full rp, and then staying as close to max rp as possible and still having him die early. I saw a bug report for this on the ptr, I didn't know if there were issues like this on live as well?

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

Mmmm no, summoning him with full rp, and then staying as close to max rp as possible and still having him die early. I saw a bug report for this on the ptr, I didn't know if there were issues like this on live as well?

I've never heard of Gargoyle flying away earlier without anyone screwing up his RP (or it getting killed by AoE)so either you have fund a very very rare bug or you did something wrong. You're sure you never dropped below 10 or 20 RP, not even for a second?

NeuronRider · 03/13/09, 10:26 AM

Apparently there was a [bug reported] a few days back on the PTR forums.

He stated that it died with 10 sec remaining though, indicating that it should have lasted about 20 sec after the free 10 sec, not died within 10 seconds after said duration.

One interesting comment in the report though was that he had a full 130 RP. Perhaps some sort of odd bug as a result of having RPM (he didn't say if he got RPM just to test this out or not)? Did you have any points in RPM?

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ashur25

I've never heard of Gargoyle flying away earlier without anyone screwing up his RP (or it getting killed by AoE)so either you have fund a very very rare bug or you did something wrong. You're sure you never dropped below 10 or 20 RP, not even for a second?

Yep, even switched to 4/5 t7 for more rp generation. That or the buff timer is just wrong. It may be lasting for 30 seconds but the buff isn't appearing for quite awhile after I summon the gargoyle.

I'm probably just screwing up the timing in my head.

Also, what do people use for tracking Unholy Blight? Mod wise?

EDIT: Gargoyle didn't fly away. It died