Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 112

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by NeuronRider

Apparently there was a [bug reported] a few days back on the PTR forums.

He stated that it died with 10 sec remaining though, indicating that it should have lasted about 20 sec after the free 10 sec, not died within 10 seconds after said duration.

One interesting comment in the report though was that he had a full 130 RP. Perhaps some sort of odd bug as a result of having RPM (he didn't say if he got RPM just to test this out or not)? Did you have any points in RPM?

No, 17/0/54 on live.

NeuronRider · 03/13/09, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

No, 17/0/54 on live.

I completely misunderstood you. No, I've never seen this happen on Live. I thought you were referring to the PTR.
I'm at a loss.

Foxx2405 · 03/13/09, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

Yep, even switched to 4/5 t7 for more rp generation. That or the buff timer is just wrong. It may be lasting for 30 seconds but the buff isn't appearing for quite awhile after I summon the gargoyle.

I'm probably just screwing up the timing in my head.

Also, what do people use for tracking Unholy Blight? Mod wise?

EDIT: Gargoyle didn't fly away. It died

The timer starts 10 seconds after you summon the gargoyle since thats when it starts draining RP.

The timer starts at 50 seconds, and the gargoyle disappears when the timer has 30 seconds left (after 20 seconds of starting it), in total thats 30 seconds.

Originally Posted by claym

While I agree you're going to need to leech points from Dark Conviction, I don't think you need to null them out.

As you can see I've taken 2 of the points from Dark Conviction, but have opted to steal 1 of the points from Epidemic and the two out of Improved Unholy Presence. I don't see a reason to extend the duration of my diseases out past 18 seconds. Though purely anecdotal, I never experienced problems when epidemic was a full investment for 3 seconds largely due to my Scourge Strike glyph. After you cross that 18 second point you only 2 GCDs worth of time to get extra Scourge Strikes out to give the glyph extra chances, and since it's the tail end of your rotation you don't really have the glyphs to do it in the 20 second cycle. It just seems very diminished in value to me.

The Improved Unholy Presence is something I'm not completely convinced was a good leech of 2 points. You're only really gaining half the talent benefit in PvE since we do it in Blood Presence. And the 15% movement speed is good for you, but doesn't benefit the raid anymore (diminishing its value to group). I'm not sure if a 2% crit is outweighed by the added time on the boss from quick retreats and recoveries with Unholy Aura. I'll have to read more about the Ulduar encounters and see how much movement is moving out of range and then back in range, distances, etc before I can cement that decision.

Using 3 those three freed points from UH and two from Dark Conviction looks like a better build to me.

I personally am not 100% sure on the Improved Unholy Aura, but I can still see 15% movement speed being of importance.
I dont know the ulduar fights so I can't tell if they involve a lot of movement.

Pulling 1 point out of Epidemic wouldn't be my choice. You say: "Its just 2 seconds at the end of your rotation" that is false.

If you refresh diseases halfway in your rotation (which happens all the time due to SS glyph), that means they will end somewhere halfway in a rotation too.
In that case the 1 point in epidemic can be the difference in getting 1 or 2 extra SS's in or not.

Originally Posted by sun

I think this is more pertinent : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My reasonning for this is that the only points you can put in UH comes from Dark Conviction, so basically :
- Impurity : I wish i could use Impurity, but 5% extra crits seems superior.
- UB : 1% crit on all looks better to me, since UB is situationnal and barely noticeable anyway.
- Imp UHP : the choice comes down to (+15% damage & +2% crit) vs (+15% extra speed/haste & -1s on Rune CD).

Also, trading 2% crit for 15% speed in Blood Presence doesn't seems right, the fight area are not so big that it really matters, the extra speed is about survivability for those lacking reactions time

.

UH tree is a bit bloated right now, and the Morbidty/Virulence swap doesn't help.

Impurity is better, by quite a bit I'm sure. It affects 30% of my dps (DC / Diseases / IT / UB / Gargoyle too i think)
Raid buffed (without trinkets etc) i usually run with about 5000 AP, impurity has the effect of giving all those attacks 6250 AP.

Unholy Blight is like 5 times better than 1% crit. I'm not sure how you fight as unholy, but for me Unholy Blight has an uptime as close as 100% as possible (usually 85-90% in practice).
For me Unholy Blight is around 5% of my dps.

Imp UHP, the choice does not include +15% damage / 15% haste and -1s on Rune CD, because the benefit is the 15% speed boost, which you still get in BP.
Whether that's worth more than 2% crit depends on what kind of fights ulduar involve. Most of the naxx fights don't require you to have boot speed. However i can see that being totally different in ulduar.

Clandestine · 03/13/09, 10:56 AM

The "Summon Gargoyle" buff appears 10 seconds after you summon the Gargoyle, as it does not incur a RP drain during the first 10 seconds. The buff timer mistakenly says it lasts an additional 30 seconds once it begins draining RP, however, in reality the Gargoyle dies exactly 30 seconds after being summoned, assuming you don't run out of RP. It's pretty damned obvious too as the Gargoyle dies precisely when the Summon Gargoyle ability has 2 minutes and 30 seconds left on its cooldown.

Herrm · 03/13/09, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

Also, what do people use for tracking Unholy Blight? Mod wise?

ClassTimer - Addons - Curse

TellMeWhen - Addons - Curse

NeedToKnow - Addons - Curse

Foxx2405 · 03/13/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Herrm

ClassTimer - Addons - Curse

TellMeWhen - Addons - Curse

NeedToKnow - Addons - Curse

I personally use TellMeWhen, mainly because its highly customizable and very easy in setting up and using.

However when a fight gets busy, I notice that I pay too little attention to the timers. So for that reason I'm also using: "Power Auras Classic" (you can find it both at Curse and other sites as well iirc).

It basically gives a big glowy symbol in the middle of your screen, its pretty hard to miss.
I use it for procs and stuff that needs to be up all the time, but usually have a cooldown or longer duration.

A few examples:
- Killing Machine proc (when im frost), shows a big light blue circle right in the middle of my interface
- Rime proc
- Bone Shield
- Unholy Blight
- Horn of Winter
- Sudden Death proc

I don't do it on diseases because as unholy i need to track those constantly anyway, to anticipate my rotation. But pretty much anything that is "must have 100% uptime"-fire-and-forget-buff or a proc i have on Power Auras.

methods · 03/13/09, 11:49 AM

Life would be easier with Virulence on Tier 2 again... (EDIT: I posted Tier 1 by accident) 12/0/59 looks like the most dps I can squeeze out of my spreadsheets. The effect that 2 points in morbidity would have on trash packs is hard to determine.

Our best glyphs are SS, Ghoul and DC so far.

Looks like in a 3 minute fight Blood with 51/1/19 (assuming 50% ghoul uptime) and Unholy with 12/0/59 will be neck and neck. Blood, however, is looking to be the best new boss attempt spec due to over ~1000 heals per second from DS and Blood Pres. I'm glad that something besides Unholy is starting to look fun and unique (loaded statement I know).

NeuroMedivh · 03/13/09, 12:11 PM

No, Life would be easier if Morbidity were back in Tier 1. I'd love to see BOTH of these talents as Tier 1, but Blizzard designers seem obsessed with maintaining symmetry in their first tier talents. Right now, I would trim Virulence from every Unholy build if I could.

NeuroMedivh · 03/13/09, 12:21 PM

The irony of the new Desecration is that the Live version (each point being 20% chance to trigger the 5% effect) would be better than the PTR version if it included Scourge Strike. Then, I could put only 2-3 points into it and still get the full effect.

methods · 03/13/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

No, Life would be easier if Morbidity were back in Tier 1. I'd love to see BOTH of these talents as Tier 1, but Blizzard designers seem obsessed with maintaining symmetry in their first tier talents. Right now, I would trim Virulence from every Unholy build if I could.

Read what I mean not what I type! Edited above.

For the reasons of PVP builds alone being force fed all 3 points does seem a bit strange. Bloat, however is no new problem for Unholy builds.

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

The irony of the new Desecration is that the Live version (each point being 20% chance to trigger the 5% effect) would be better than the PTR version if it included Scourge Strike. Then, I could put only 2-3 points into it and still get the full effect.

Haha, i was actually thinking why everyone puts 5/5 in it, when 3/5 would probably enough for 100% uptime until i realized they changed it a while back

Fugazor · 03/13/09, 12:52 PM

It seems there will be though choices with talents in 3.1.

Questions:
1) We will need to most likely drop some talents in Blood - which goes first?
2) Epidemic or Morbidity or BCB?
3) Take UB or not?
4) Maybe drop some points from Dirge or even Impurity?
5) Take Imp. UP or not?

Basically what we need is some values of DPS increase of talents so we can drop "the weakest link". Let's take a look - I will use data from one of my Patchwerk kills.

Unholy:
* Morbidity - DC did 7.7% damage, removing this talent will result in 1% loss = 0.33% per point.
* Outbreak - ~1.41% per point.
* Necrosis - 4.8% of total damage = 0.95% per point.
* BCB - 2.2% = 0.73% per point.
* UB - 279 per tick so 5580 per 40 RP, DC 3555 per 40 RP (crit included) = 2025 damage lost over 20 sec = 100 dps loss = 1.78% loss on single target.
* Dirge - 25 RP per 20 sec = 2222 damage lost over 20 sec (based on DC damage) = 111 dps loss = 1.97% loss = 0.99% per point.
* Impurity - 26.7% damage affected = 3.48% damage loss = 0.7% per point.
* Desecration - 73.4% damage affected = 0.72% per point.
* Wandering Plague - 2.5% = 0.83% per point.
* Imp. UP = There was once a thread about this with nice math, anyone care to find it? We could assume 32 AP per point for sure as a start (boot enchant) but its surely worth more.

Blood:
* 2h Weapon Spec - 49% damage affected = 0.94% per point.
* Bladed Armor - Every point gives me ~80 AP with current gear. I am not sure how to count this but 1 DPS on weapon is equal to ~7 AP in spreadsheet so we could assume that 1 point is equal to 11+ DPS = ~0.2% per point.
* Dark Conviction - 61.2% damage affected = 0.58% per point.

List:
1) UB - 1.8% dps loss.
2) Outbreak - 1.41% per point.
3) Dirge - 1% per point.
5) Necrosis - 0.95% per point.
6) 2h Weapon Spec - 0.94% per point.
7) Wandering Plague - 0.83% per point.
8) BCB - 0.73% per point.
9) Dececration - 0.72% per point.
10) Impurity - 0.7% per point.
11) Dark Conviction - 0.58% per point.
12) Morbidity - 0.33% per point.
13) Bladed Armor - 0.2% per point.

Note that 3.0 values was used so keep in mind that Outbreak value will go up (SS and PS buffs) or Morbidity will also (but it won't make it better than Dark Conviction). Also all data included pet damage - Gargoyle, Ghoul and Army of the Dead - but I think it is better that way, more realistic.

Value of Epidemic and Imp. UP needs to be found still. Additionally I didn't count few talents like NotD or Ravenous Dead as they are simply needed for Ghoul Survival (and dead ghoul = 10-15% dps loss).

FINAL BUILD HERE

EDIT: Fixed value of Desecration (down from 1% to 0.72%).

Herrm · 03/13/09, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by methods

Blood, however, is looking to be the best new boss attempt spec due to over ~1000 heals per second from DS and Blood Pres.

Not to mention the fact that literally every 2H weapon shown so far has ArP and nearly every single plate armor item (without Int) that has dropped for us off every boss does as well...

Illundai · 03/13/09, 1:05 PM

Either I'm on drugs or they fixed Ebon Plague stacking. Didn't extensively test (not enough time and no one around but some random to try it out with) but it seemed to give me the bonus even if the Ebon Plague up wasn't mine.

Also this might be old but I could overwrite the Ebon Plague of other people by casting a disease.

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Herrm

Not to mention the fact that literally every 2H weapon shown so far has ArP and every nearly every single plate armor item (without Int) that has dropped for us and from looking at off every boss does as well...

Seriously. I know they are trying to make armor pen and haste better stats. Everything and their mother do not need to have the stat though. It makes me really really sad.