Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 113

Nacht · 03/13/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

* Desecration - will be 1% per point now, even on movement fights we use SS all the time.

Just a quick point to make on this. Desecration won't increase your pets' damage contributions, which for me comes to about 20% of my damage on a Patchwerk type fight and at least 10% of my damage on a Thaddius/Loatheb fight (mechanics more heavily weight personal damage). So Desecration will be something more on the order of 0.8-0.9% DPS per point when assuming a 100% uptime.

Fugazor · 03/13/09, 1:41 PM

I prefer ArP than those way too many pieces loaded with +hit. Besides after 3.1 buffs now AGI, haste and ArP are at least equally bad but not that much worse than crit and expertise. Then in next league you have hit before melee cap and in next tier there is STR sitting alone on king's throne.

The bigger problem is absolutely ridiculous amount of stamina on Ulduar DPS plate - take a look:

Plate 226 DPS Chest - 169 STA
Plate 226 TANK Chest - 159 STA
Leather 226 DPS Chest - 66 STA

Plate 226 DPS Legs - 169 STA
Plate 226 TANK Legs - 147 STA
Leather 226 DPS Legs - 99 STA

If this itemization of DPS plate will continue we will all end up wearing leather and mail.

Originally Posted by Nacht

Just a quick point to make on this. Desecration won't increase your pets' damage contributions

My bad - fixed.

NeuronRider · 03/13/09, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

If this terrible itemization of DPS plate will continue we will all end up wearing leather and mail.

Except for, as you note, Str having such a large weight, which is normally conspicuously missing from mail and leather. Although I do agree that it's awfully bizarre to have more Stam on the DPS pieces than on the tanking ones. And substantially larger increase over last tier compared to the leather and mail equivalents.

Fugazor · 03/13/09, 1:52 PM

Going with only one good stat (aside from hit pre-cap) doesn't seem smart. There will be point in which quantity of stats on leather will beat quality of STR on plate - if it isn't already with Ulduar.

I am just wondering what is holding up Blizzard into adding 5th stat? Why just not add AP?

Additionally why not convert those +hit pieces into even ArP/Haste before they will became ignored abyss crystals as we will be capped anyway? In my opinion capping hit and exp should be done via gems/enchants and gear should rather lack those.

methods · 03/13/09, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

Going with only one good stat (aside from hit pre-cap) doesn't seem smart. There will be point in which quantity of stats on leather will beat quality of STR on plate - if it isn't already with Ulduar.

I am just wondering what is holding up Blizzard into adding 5th stat? Why just not add AP?

Additionally why not convert those +hit pieces into even ArP/Haste before they will became ignored abyss crystals as we will be capped anyway? In my opinion capping hit and exp should be done via gems/enchants and gear should rather lack those.

I strongly doubt this will happen. Haste is near equal to what warriors get out of it for Unholy (relative to AP). Haste and Crit are worth the same now (~1.4APE). Leather is covered in Agi which is actually equal or worse than ArP for Unholy. Armor would be halved effectively removing half the benefit of Bladed armor.

This could MAYBE happen for Blood what with it being more strike oriented. ArP is one of Blood's best stats. Agi isn't a total waste like it is for Unholy either.

Even if you are below the Melee Hit cap, 'gemming' for anything but STR just isn't worth it currently. I doubt that will change either. This is especially true if you consider the value for STR (and AP) goes up significantly with AoE.

On AP with STR on the same piece: It makes sense but Blizzard is obviously against it for whatever reason.

Foxx2405 · 03/13/09, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

It seems there will be though choices with talents in 3.1.

<snip>Lots of comparisons</snip>

Hmm nice comparison.

I would like to say that morbidity's secondary effect has value though.

Your analysis is correct for single target boss, but having a DnD on a shorter cooldown is useful on trash and AoE bosses.

Maybe taking the 2 remaining points and 1 more point from Bladed Armor and putting them in Morbidity is more worthwile. You'd lose 0.36% dps for a huge utility asset.

The last 2 points in Bladed Armor are then also up for grab in case you decide you want Ghoul Frenzy or Corpse Explosion or something for whatever reason.

methods · 03/13/09, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

It seems there will be though choices with talents in 3.1.

* Bladed Armor - Every point gives me ~80 AP with current gear. I am not sure how to count this but 1 DPS on weapon is equal to ~7 AP in spreadsheet so we could assume that 1 point is equal to 11+ DPS = ~0.2% per point.

Your conclusions are close to what I've found save one obvious mistake.

1 Weapon DPS does in fact = ~7AP

1 Weapon DPS does not however = 1 Real DPS.

With Naxx gear you are looking at 1 Weapon DPS equaling ~4.25DPS which would quadruple your estimated dps to about ~0.85% per point. Which agrees closely with some of my calculations. Bladed armor is still a near must have as far as I can tell.

The value of DND's shorter cooldown I think will come down to preference. Dark conviction does beat Morbidity in a straight up Single target dps fight. No denial there. The problem is that it's really not by much.

Neckface · 03/13/09, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

I would like to say that morbidity's secondary effect has value though.

Your analysis is correct for single target boss, but having a DnD on a shorter cooldown is useful on trash and AoE bosses.

It's also tremendously useful for maxing out your RP bar before the pull.

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

It's also tremendously useful for maxing out your RP bar before the pull.

How so? You generate 15RP with it, you lose 1RP per second and D&D has a 15s cd. You're back at 0 when the cd is over.

Foxx2405 · 03/13/09, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ashur25

How so? You generate 15RP with it, you lose 1RP per second and D&D has a 15s cd. You're back at 0 when the cd is over.

Well if you combine it with Bone Shield, Arcane Torrent and Horn of Winter you can build up RP.

DnD makes sure you dont lose any RP generated by the other RP generating abilities.
Ow and coming patch we can also spam Ghoul Frenzy ! I finally found a reason to spec into it !

Neckface · 03/13/09, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ashur25

How so? You generate 15RP with it, you lose 1RP per second and D&D has a 15s cd. You're back at 0 when the cd is over.

Not if you also use your Horn of Winter; use both to get up to 100, then just use your D&D every cooldown. I start pretty much every pull with a full bar.

Foxx2405 · 03/13/09, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

Not if you also use your Horn of Winter; use both to get up to 100, then just use your D&D every cooldown. I start pretty much every pull with a full bar.

Starting with full RP is a bit useless though as (on bosses) you use your runes first anyway.
At best I start with 40 RP or so, so i can put UB up while i run in. (Don't think my tank likes me deathcoiling the boss while we run in :P)

We pull trash too quickly for me to build up 100 RP, not to mention I usually end those fights with 100 RP and it doesnt drop before we pull the next group.

Kjelin · 03/13/09, 6:24 PM

Wow Web Stats

Am I doing anything wrong here with this? It's the target dummy with nothing but self buffs, but I've never seriously specced unholy before.

Referring to earlier posts as well, will BcB and Wandering plague really be worth taking over Dark Conviction if desecration is triggered via scourge strike?

The percentage's per point pointed out earlier in this thread with their values and this kind of data seems to support it with them weighing in at 3% and 4% of my damage done over ten minutes with what I think are correct rotations and ability usages. (currently not using desecration)

Another question is ghoul frenzy? Does anyone know how much that one point will increase overall dps by percentage? It seems that since it costs a rune it would be fairly unwieldy to use in rotations to me.

Mulgero · 03/13/09, 6:40 PM

I'd still drop desecration no matter what. Am I only one who is just disgusted those hands coming up everytime you swing at something? Minor lag spike when they pop up, animations covers any other game element, spawns under your feet... any movement fight you will be landing trail of desecration arms flapping around. Just no.

Desecration is good on paper, less so in real use. I'd rather something which will be always on use regardless of situation.
Also Dropping bladed armor will also make indestructible potions useless which gives atm quite nice ap boost for almost 2min of the fight and you can still use speed potion.

Taken from enhance shaman TT post:

Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.
So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

That calculation is for 8% runspeed enchant. 15% movement and 3000-6000 dps... I'm gonna pick up imp unholy aura + that allows me to use 32ap or icewalker.

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kjelin

Wow Web Stats

Am I doing anything wrong here with this? It's the target dummy with nothing but self buffs, but I've never seriously specced unholy before.

Referring to earlier posts as well, will BcB and Wandering plague really be worth taking over Dark Conviction if desecration is triggered via scourge strike?

The percentage's per point pointed out earlier in this thread with their values and this kind of data seems to support it with them weighing in at 3% and 4% of my damage done over ten minutes with what I think are correct rotations and ability usages. (currently not using desecration)

Another question is ghoul frenzy? Does anyone know how much that one point will increase overall dps by percentage? It seems that since it costs a rune it would be fairly unwieldy to use in rotations to me.

Well you don't have 4pcT7, thus you already doing a few hundred dps less (raidbuffed that is) than you could.

Your Death coil and UB percentages also seem strange, UB is normally only ~4% of ones dps while Death coil is more like 8-12%, could be because you're not generating enough RP due to not having 4pcT7

I don't see your Ghoul, did you not use him? or does WWS just not show him?

Other than that i don't really see anything wrong (you could get Darkmoon Card though, would add another 100-200 dps)

Regarding your other questions: Dark Conviction is probably the weakest talents you can take points from for Desecration. A lot of people seem to not take BCB in their 3.1 talent tree though(mostly because the swap of virulence <--> Morbidity though, as you effectively lose 2 talent points through that)

Ghoul frenzy is certainly not worth it, losing 1 SS every 30 seconds while increasing your 600 dps pets haste for 1/2 of the time? no thanks!

Edit: Forgot to mention your spec, you should really move 1 point from virulence to Dirge for max dps