Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 114

Cuelebre · 03/13/09, 7:23 PM

For those of us that don't pvp much or like to tank, there's also the fact that we could use dual spec to have an aoe build for trash and the occasional aoe boss fights, and then whichever spec would let us do the most during single target fights.

Where one could still utilize morbidity, wandering plague, etc to do a lot of aoe damage for all the trash fights, and then those points could be taken out and put into more useful locations for the single target boss fights since i believe it is still just a 5 second cast to switch between the two.

Drenhar · 03/13/09, 8:00 PM

^But it requires an inscriptionist and 2 others to summon the lexicon to switch over. Doing that every boss fight in Naxx for example hardly seems practical.

Unless that was changed and i'm wrong, (which i usually am).

Ashur25 · 03/13/09, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Drenhar

^But it requires an inscriptionist and 2 others to summon the lexicon to switch over. Doing that every boss fight in Naxx for example hardly seems practical.

Unless that was changed and i'm wrong, (which i usually am).

Yeah you're wrong, The above mentioned was never acually implemented, just announced and then canceled. It's just a few second long cast now

Drenhar · 03/13/09, 8:46 PM

That's outstanding! I'm glad to hear it.

Edit: Rest deleted because i'm dumb and can't read.

Cuelebre · 03/14/09, 4:25 AM

^actually, all of that is stuff that they'd already posted previously compiled together so that it was easier to see it all, not really new.

Drenhar · 03/14/09, 5:02 AM

Yeah i finally realized that. I'm slow, glad it's friday. Deleted.

Veszrak · 03/14/09, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

It seems there will be though choices with talents in 3.1.

Questions:
1) We will need to most likely drop some talents in Blood - which goes first?
2) Epidemic or Morbidity or BCB?
3) Take UB or not?
4) Maybe drop some points from Dirge or even Impurity?
5) Take Imp. UP or not?

Basically what we need is some values of DPS increase of talents so we can drop "the weakest link". Let's take a look - I will use data from one of my Patchwerk kills.

Unholy:
* Morbidity - DC did 7.7% damage, removing this talent will result in 1% loss = 0.33% per point.
* Outbreak - ~1.41% per point.
* Necrosis - 4.8% of total damage = 0.95% per point.
* BCB - 2.2% = 0.73% per point.
* UB - 279 per tick so 5580 per 40 RP, DC 3555 per 40 RP (crit included) = 2025 damage lost over 20 sec = 100 dps loss = 1.78% loss on single target.
* Dirge - 25 RP per 20 sec = 2222 damage lost over 20 sec (based on DC damage) = 111 dps loss = 1.97% loss = 0.99% per point.
* Impurity - 26.7% damage affected = 3.48% damage loss = 0.7% per point.
* Desecration - 73.4% damage affected = 0.72% per point.
* Wandering Plague - 2.5% = 0.83% per point.
* Imp. UP = There was once a thread about this with nice math, anyone care to find it? We could assume 32 AP per point for sure as a start (boot enchant) but its surely worth more.

Blood:
* 2h Weapon Spec - 49% damage affected = 0.94% per point.
* Bladed Armor - Every point gives me ~80 AP with current gear. I am not sure how to count this but 1 DPS on weapon is equal to ~7 AP in spreadsheet so we could assume that 1 point is equal to 11+ DPS = ~0.2% per point.
* Dark Conviction - 61.2% damage affected = 0.58% per point.

List:
1) UB - 1.8% dps loss.
2) Outbreak - 1.41% per point.
3) Dirge - 1% per point.
5) Necrosis - 0.95% per point.
6) 2h Weapon Spec - 0.94% per point.
7) Wandering Plague - 0.83% per point.
8) BCB - 0.73% per point.
9) Dececration - 0.72% per point.
10) Impurity - 0.7% per point.
11) Dark Conviction - 0.58% per point.
12) Morbidity - 0.33% per point.
13) Bladed Armor - 0.2% per point.

Note that 3.0 values was used so keep in mind that Outbreak value will go up (SS and PS buffs) or Morbidity will also (but it won't make it better than Dark Conviction). Also all data included pet damage - Gargoyle, Ghoul and Army of the Dead - but I think it is better that way, more realistic.

Value of Epidemic and Imp. UP needs to be found still. Additionally I didn't count few talents like NotD or Ravenous Dead as they are simply needed for Ghoul Survival (and dead ghoul = 10-15% dps loss).

FINAL BUILD HERE

EDIT: Fixed value of Desecration (down from 1% to 0.72%).

I'm liking the figures, solves a lot of questions and answers a lot of my own. I have a question for you though. to make a spreadsheet or to properly record a session onto excel what do i need to do or may i ask for a link to this spreadsheet you are using?

zagor · 03/14/09, 6:36 AM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

Basically what we need is some values of DPS increase of talents so we can drop "the weakest link". Let's take a look - I will use data from one of my Patchwerk kills.

Good analysis, however my numbers from Patchwerk are somewhat different: 5400dps 3.41 Patchwerk
Namely all of these are bigger than your numbers:
DC 10,4% (12% in another log)
Necrosis 5,4%
BCB 2.9%

Basically I'm interested in how the values for Morbidity/UB/Dirge/Impurity change because of higher DC percentage (~11%).

edit: higher DC can be the result of 4xt7. Did you wear that in you parse? (Of course set bonus will in time be lost with ulduar gear),

Fugazor · 03/14/09, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Veszrak

I'm liking the figures, solves a lot of questions and answers a lot of my own. I have a question for you though. to make a spreadsheet or to properly record a session onto excel what do i need to do or may i ask for a link to this spreadsheet you are using?

I didn't used any. I just took my WMO from Patchwerk 2 weeks ago. As for weapon DPS I used number I had saved from some spreadsheet where 1 weapon DPS = 6.92 AP - I am not sure how accurate this is. Simply as nobody else did it I tried to put some values on talents. Overall the only problem left is Bladed Armor vs Dark Conviction.

Originally Posted by zagor

Basically I'm interested in how the values for Morbidity/UB/Dirge/Impurity change because of higher DC percentage (~11%).

edit: higher DC can be the result of 4xt7. Did you wear that in you parse? (Of course set bonus will in time be lost with ulduar gear),

Take a look:
11) Dark Conviction - 0.58% per point.
12) Morbidity - 0.33% per point.

DC would need to be almost double damage for Morbidity > Dark Conviction or any other talent. Also yes I used 4 piece of T7 - good point - without it Morbidity value will go down even further.

Originally Posted by methods

With Naxx gear you are looking at 1 Weapon DPS equaling ~4.25DPS which would quadruple your estimated dps to about ~0.85% per point. Which agrees closely with some of my calculations. Bladed armor is still a near must have as far as I can tell.

The value of DND's shorter cooldown I think will come down to preference. Dark conviction does beat Morbidity in a straight up Single target dps fight. No denial there. The problem is that it's really not by much.

Actually I have no idea if my current number on Bladed Armor is correct, same as I have no idea what number for Imp. UP is (32 AP + 15% movement speed = ?).

As for DnD my tests on target dummies showed that I did higher AoE damage without using it due to new BB. Obviously it will be still nice to throw it while running to pack but then 30 sec is rather good enough.

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

The last 2 points in Bladed Armor are then also up for grab in case you decide you want Ghoul Frenzy or Corpse Explosion or something for whatever reason.

Why would you want to take CE? It is so situational, low damage, don't crit - it is crap overall. As for GF it would be nice if it would not use Unholy rune - for now it is pretty waste of talent point.

Orlgin · 03/14/09, 7:14 AM

If your glyph set is Ghoul, Scourge Strike, and Dark Death, you can safely remove the point in Unholy Blight. Once you get the new gear, it doesn't take long for Death Coil to exceed Unholy Blight in damage. At 7000 AP, I believe it takes 27% critical chance for Death Coil to overtake Unholy Blight. Morbidity shoots up in value as Desecration adds 5% damage and the Glyph adds 15%. The set bonus also adds damage to Death Coil.

Assuming it deals 12% of your DPS, 15% of that is 1.8. Divided by 3, you get 0.6. Which means if you use Death N Decay as part of your AoE package, it's worth it.

Does the ghoul get critical chance from it's owner? I've seen no mention of this so far in my reading. I know Ghouls scale with Strength and Haste. If someone has proven this, this should be added to the pet thread for Ghoul scaling.

Dark Conviction should be the talent to be removed. It's placement and DPS value make it the perfect candidate for removal in my opinion.

Foxx2405 · 03/14/09, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Fugazor

Why would you want to take CE? It is so situational, low damage, don't crit - it is crap overall. As for GF it would be nice if it would not use Unholy rune - for now it is pretty waste of talent point.

Nah i know they are currently a waste mostly. Was more stating that if Bladed Armor indeed provides as little total dps as you initially claimed than those 2 points would be the the first you'd take in favor of something else.

I still get tempted to spec into such talents, if only for the fun factor.

-----

However as Methods pointed out, the value of Bladed Armor might actually be higher. In which case the situation changes a bit.

Fugazor · 03/14/09, 7:51 AM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

If your glyph set is Ghoul, Scourge Strike, and Dark Death, you can safely remove the point in Unholy Blight.

No, you remove UB you loose 100 dps on single target - not to even mention any aoe that we already saw in many fights in Ulduar. I skipped UB initially too - until I did the math.

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Once you get the new gear, it doesn't take long for Death Coil to exceed Unholy Blight in damage. At 7000 AP, I believe it takes 27% critical chance for Death Coil to overtake Unholy Blight.

Now I am not sure how much AP I had but spell crit was at 29%+ and still UB won by a large margin - 5580 avg. damage per UB cast, 3355 avg. DC damage and that includes crits. If I would switch 3x UB to 3x DC I would loose over 6000 damage per minute.

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Morbidity shoots up in value as Desecration adds 5% damage and the Glyph adds 15%. The set bonus also adds damage to Death Coil.

Desecration works for everything. Morbidity is not and option as there are better talents in both Unholy and Blood with 3.1.

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Does the ghoul get critical chance from it's owner?

Ghoul (and Army if I remember) scales only with STR, haste and hit.

Orlgin · 03/14/09, 12:13 PM

Desecration doesn't raise the Ghoul's damage which means everything else goes up in value. This was mentioned earlier but apparently you didn't read that part. Think about it: if ghoul does the same amount of damage and all the other things go up by 5-6%, won't they have a higher number compared to Ghoul?

As for math, let's check it out with all bonuses except Desecration (which we haven't decided to take yet)

Unholy Blight Rank 4: 48 per tick. 20 ticks. AP coefficient: 0.013
Death Coil Rank 5: 443 damage. Can crit for double damage. AP Coefficient: 0.15

OK, let's apply the talents and bonuses first:

Unholy Blight gets a 10% bonus from Rage of Rivendare. 0.013 x 1.1 = 0.0143
Unholy Blight gets a 15% bonus from Blood Presence. 0.0143 x 1.15 = 0.0164
Unholy Blight gets a 25% AP bonus from Impurity: 0.0164 x 1.25 = 0.0205
Unholy Blight gets a 13% bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer: 0.0205 x 1.13 = 0.0231

Base damage: 48 * 20 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 1372.27
AP bonus: 7000 x 0.0231 = 161.7 x 20 = 3234
Total damage: 4606.27

Death Coil gets a 10% bonus from Rage of Rivendare: 0.15 x 1.1 = 0.165
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Blood Presence: 0.165 x 1.15 = 0.189
Death Coil gets a 25% AP bonus from Impurity: 0.236
Death Coil gets a 13% bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer: 0.266
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Morbidity: 0.3059
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Glyph of Dark Death: 0.351

Base damage is 443 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 837 damage
AP Bonus: 7000 x 0.351 = 2457
Total damage : 3294

4606/3294 = 1.398

So with all bonuses, it jumps to 39.8% critical needed. There are, of course, rounding errors but that's in the ballpark. That doesn't include the metagem that give 3% critical damage bonus. Dividing by 1.03, you get 1.357.

so 35.7% spell critical raid buffed puts you over the top with all bonuses.

The reason you see higher numbers now is this: The Base damage for Unholy Blight is actually 960. It's AP coefficient is actually 0.26. That's accounting for all the ticks. Death Coil starts at 443 and 0.15 coefficient. But it gets a 203% damage bonus for criticals and has more bonuses that effect it. So eventually you hit a point where Death Coil is superior. Make sense?

Foxx2405 · 03/14/09, 2:03 PM

I could be mistaken.

But last I heard Unholy Blight actually got the Crypt Fever modifier of 30% extra disease damage. The reason being Unholy Blight was a disease in beta, they just removed the disease tag, but I'm pretty sure it kept the modifier so it stayed balanced.

Which would make
base damage: 1783.95
Ap bonus: 4227.60
Total damage: 6011.55

6011 / 3294 = 1.825
Dividing by 1.03 that is 1.772

77.2% crit.

--------

You could verify this with some basic tests. But unless they changed the mechanic in 3.0.8 or 3.0.9 this is how it works.

The only way DC is gonna outclass Unholy Blight, is if you have very low AP numbers and insane high crit.
For example on a fight like Loatheb death coil might actually be better than UB, due to the spore buff.

morbidjbyrd · 03/14/09, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

I think he was counting it in this way.

2 Cycles in unholy presnce take 18 seconds.

That means that for the duration of your diseases ( 21 seconds) you have 2 whole cycles + 3 GCD (19 / 20 / 21 second marks).
In those 3 free GCD you could theoretically with 0 ms fit 3 SS's

I think you have a point when you look at the bigger picture.
But i can kind of see how morb was thinking, and i dont see it as a bad way of thinking.
Every time your SS refreshes diseases you should be able to fit in 3 more SS's before the 21 pass than with blood presence.
However that requires (near) perfect latency, and requires you to fire the SS's as soon as the runes come up. Which in practice is probably very unrealistic.

-----

If Unholy Presence turns out to be the best presence, i'd personally be very happy. Because i personally prefer the feel of a 1 sec GCD rotation over a 1.5 second.
It gives a bit more leeway, allows for a mistake and for some mobility.

----

@Morb

The way you were thinking with haste and how it stacks multiplicatively is right. But you forget that if you add 20% base haste to stack multiplicatively, that the 15% damage also gets multiplied with that. Because you are doing 20% more attacks that do 15% more damage

So unfortunately that argument doesn't hold up.

I would wish with passion that it turns out that IUP + UP becomes the best presence combination, but I have a lot of doubt that that will actually happen.

I dont think an Avg would be a good means to measure it by because you would dump your RP at the end of the cycle.
So the last few seconds of the third cycle arent applicable.

8 SS might have been a bit much though, 7 would prob have been a more fair number given lag and rotation differences.

X = BcB dmg
10% haste on gear
20% haste, WF totem

2h = 4%
BS = 2%
RoR = 10%
Desec = 5%
Blood pres = 15%

Blood pres

Actual haste
1.1 * 1.2 = 1.32
[1.04 * 1.02 * 1.1 * 1.05 * 1.15 * X] * 1.32 = 1.85989 X

Unholy Pres
Actual Haste
1.1 * 1.2 * 1.15 = 1.518
[1.04 * 1.02 * 1.1 * 1.05 * X] * 1.518 = 1.85989 X

So BcB dmg will be identical and Necrosis dmg will be slightly less.
I guess I did miscall that one.