Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 117

Nerosis · 03/17/09, 2:24 PM

My question pertaining to 15% movement from IUP is just how much movement is required before it actually pays off and becomes a bigger part of your DPS and damage than some of the other talents you could put the points in? I keep seeing many people agreeing on faster movement is better DPS/damage, and that does make sense. The faster you can get back to the target, the better. Yet how much time must you spend running around, not dealing damage, before IUP actually increases your DPS/damage by a higher amount than other talents?

Taizu · 03/17/09, 2:59 PM

Taken from Enh Shaman TTT

[top]Agility vs Run Speed for Boots

With WotLK introducing the Unholy Deathknight with an Aura that increases runspeed of the entire raid by 15% it is no longer necessary for runspeed to be provided through your boot enchant. However runspeed in some form is still a requirement for PvE. Derivation:

Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t

Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.

So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

Pernicies · 03/17/09, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Nerosis

My question pertaining to 15% movement from IUP is just how much movement is required before it actually pays off and becomes a bigger part of your DPS and damage than some of the other talents you could put the points in?

Would it be more appropriate here to compare the +7% run speed increase that 2/2 IUP provides over a run speed boot enchant with the opportunity cost of not having a best in slot enchant combined with losing those two talent points if the goal is to quantify the cost of IUP?

Ashur25 · 03/17/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Pernicies

Would it be more appropriate here to compare the +7% run speed increase that 2/2 IUP provides over a run speed boot enchant with the opportunity cost of not having a best in slot enchant combined with losing those two talent points if the goal is to quantify the cost of IUP?

If you take into account the AP, hit/crit you lose from not being able to enchant 32AP or Icewalker on boots, then i'd say yes

Pernicies · 03/17/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ashur25

If you take into account the AP, hit/crit you lose from not being able to enchant 32AP or Icewalker on boots, then i'd say yes

Icewalker > 32 AP pre hit cap w/ ~41.8 AEP so will assume that as best case

That's roughly half of the contribution per point from Bladed Armor shown in Fugazor's thread, or about 0.1% DPS increase.

Two additional points in Dark Conviction would yield about 1.16% DPS increase, so the incremental 7% run speed from 2/2 IUP would need to be > 1.06% DPS increase for it to be worthwhile if I'm interpreting this correctly.

Unfortunately, I can't quite get my head around the formula used in the Enh Shaman TTT.

Elementh · 03/17/09, 6:54 PM

My problems regarding a final/solid specc for 3.1 are:

Is Imp. UP worth 2 points in comparison of having Corpse Explosion and Ghoul Frenzy? all the 3 talents are situational... CE is really a dps boost for aoe packs; GF might be a good thing to have from time to time; I-UP is usually good but still "just" a + speed talent

Is Dark Conviction 5% Crit better than the new Desecration 5% overall dmg (taking into account it will be prolly all time up since now it works with SS too).
Specc is somewhere around 12/0/54 with 5pt free for either blood or unholy

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...4&version=9684

And if anybody wonders... yes i ignore BCB as of 3.1 as it eaven atm is only a 2.5% or my total dmg and i don`t see that getting improved in any way. CE/GF or I-UP being way better imo than 2/3 in BCB that can be also parried/dodged

Drenhar · 03/17/09, 7:04 PM

Is Imp. UP worth 2 points in comparison of having Corpse Explosion and Ghoul Frenzy? all the 3 talents are situational... CE is really a dps boost for aoe packs; GF might be a good thing to have from time to time; I-UP is usually good but still "just" a + speed talent

In my experiences, yeah I would much rather have the IUP. I would rather pestilence > blood boil than use corpse explosion during my runic dump time. By the time i use blood boil my CD are up and I have to go back to my rotation; adding corpse explosion would throw that off. Damage just isn't justifyable either. Add to the fact that we can't always use corpse either and it's a really iffy trait. (think mechanical trash mobs; doesn't happen often but it does happen).

The movement speed from IUP is a lifesaver. Think grobbulus or especially heigan it gives you more room for error (or lag) to get where you need to be quicker. Even 5 man's, something like loken. If we're running from his nova i can get out and back the quickest and minimize what damage i take and maximize how often i'm digging my weapon into his back.

Elementh · 03/17/09, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Drenhar

In my experiences, yeah I would much rather have the IUP. I would rather pestilence > blood boil than use corpse explosion during my runic dump time. By the time i use blood boil my CD are up and I have to go back to my rotation; adding corpse explosion would throw that off. Damage just isn't justifyable either. Add to the fact that we can't always use corpse either and it's a really iffy trait. (think mechanical trash mobs; doesn't happen often but it does happen).

The movement speed from IUP is a lifesaver. Think grobbulus or especially heigan it gives you more room for error (or lag) to get where you need to be quicker. Even 5 man's, something like loken. If we're running from his nova i can get out and back the quickest and minimize what damage i take and maximize how often i'm digging my weapon into his back.

Thx for the answer i`m taking it into consideration ... tho as i see from your words u haven`t eaven tried using CE ... i`m telling u it is a MASSIVE aoe dmg on multi mob pack`s(that can actually explode)... dunno we`ll have to w8 and see prolly...

Still i would like a answer to my other problem : 5% crit >=< 5% overall dmg.... tbh i tend to desecration.

• frmorrison · 03/17/09, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Elementh

Still i would like a answer to my other problem : 5% crit >=< 5% overall dmg.... tbh i tend to desecration.

It has been mentioned before, Ulduar has a lot of movement based encounters, so Desecration will rarely by 5% damage increase on bosses, more like 4%. That is likely better than 5% crit though.

Also, since you get a Death rune out of Pestilence now, it is worth using the Glyph of Disease instead of hoping for a RNG with Scourge Strike to keep the diseases up?

Stoical · 03/17/09, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Also, since you get a Death rune out of Pestilence now, it is worth using the Glyph of Disease instead of hoping for a RNG with Scourge Strike to keep the diseases up?

I don't think it is. Going off some Patchwerk numbers, I typically have to PS/IT 4 times over the course of a 3m kill. Looking at a parse of mine from several weeks ago, it's a loss of about 1684 damage each time, so that's a total loss of 6736 damage in a 3m fight while using Glyph of SS from RNG failure.

Best case with Glyph of Disease, you'll replace one BS every 21s with a Pestilence. That's 8 lost blood strikes in a 3m fight. From the same parse, my average BS was 1826. 8 lost BS = 14608 lost damage if using Glyph of Pestilence from replacing a blood strike every 21s with a pestilence.

Actually, with those numbers, it looks to me like even if SS constantly fails, you're better off redoing PS/IT every 21s than you are spending a blood rune on Pestilence, if you're not GCD-capped. You only lose 1684 damage every 21s if you replace a SS with a PS/IT, whereas you lose 1826 every 21s if you replace a BS with Pestilence. Pestilence doing 0 damage really kills it.

These numbers will change a bit in the patch, but they'll likely change to be more in favor of Glyph of SS; longer disease times means less likelihood Glyph of SS will fail to refresh, and increased PS damage means less of a difference between PS/IT and SS even when it does fail (although that may be countered by increased SS damage).

Foxx2405 · 03/17/09, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Also, since you get a Death rune out of Pestilence now, it is worth using the Glyph of Disease instead of hoping for a RNG with Scourge Strike to keep the diseases up?

Was wondering the same, now that they changed Reaping again.

The biggest part of me hopes that was a mistake in the patch notes, or that they remove glyph of disease. Because i'm kind of fond on the RNG of SS glyph. It keeps unholy from becoming a drag.

Not sure if it is better though.

The question in the end is whether 1 Blood strike (because thats what you'll give up with pestilence) worth of damage each 20 seconds, is less than the damage loss of reapplying diseases.

1 BS / 20 sec < (1 SS - ( 1 IT + 1 PS)) / X sec
then
Glyph of Disease is better than Glyph of SS.

So it depends on whether or not IT+PS is a huge dps loss compared to BS. And how often you need to refresh diseases with the SS glyph.
From experience i'd say that the refreshing is once a minute on average.
In which case i doubt that Glyph of Disease is actually better.

Metharme · 03/17/09, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Pernicies

Unfortunately, I can't quite get my head around the formula used in the Enh Shaman TTT.

Essentially it's an inequality comparing total damage calculated by multiplying DPS * Time spent DPS'ing for 12 agi to boots vs. Cat's Swiftness.

The variables are:

D = DPS
A = Amount of DPS gained for 1 point of Agi
T = Total time in the fight
t = Time spent moving

Because we're not comparing agi enchants, a more appropriate formula would be:

D*(1+N)(T-t) < D(T-t/1.15)

Where N is the % DPS gained from spending those 2 talent points elsewhere. Note, however, that we can drop D out entirely, so the inequality becomes

t > NT / (.15/1.15 + N)

Plugging in Pernicies' value of 1.06% increase needed as N, we get approximately:

t > .075T

So, as long as the fight is 7.5% or more movement (which is about 4 seconds per minute), two points in IUP is better than two points in Dark Conviction.

NOTE: this model assumes constant DPS when in melee and 0 DPS when not. Therefore it's not completely accurate (as damage while in melee takes a little time to spin up generally while damage from ranged is not, in fact, 0), but it's a reasonable enough approximation.

syrneth · 03/18/09, 5:02 AM

When you talk about IUP you just have in mind the movement increment, right? I understand, for the discussion of some days/weeks ago, that if I finally take IUP I should stay in Blood Presence. You're talking now about the RNG component in the Glyph of SS. Maybe if we have UF runes up in less time for Unholy Presence, we could cast more SS and the diseases will fade less. Has someone tested or calculated if it worth?

Elementh · 03/18/09, 5:18 AM

So basically "the" 3.1 unholy dps specc will be something like this , having I-UP over CE+CF and 5/5 desecration over 5/5 dark conviction

Bullshifter · 03/18/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Elementh

So basically "the" 3.1 unholy dps specc will be something like this , having I-UP over CE+CF and 5/5 desecration over 5/5 dark conviction

Elementh, that seems about right to me, though I'm pretty sure that BcB has more worth than Morbidity at this point, so I'd probably shift those 3 points to BcB.