Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 36

everwatch · 01/02/09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cabal

Well if you look closely at the parses, the difference in damage isnt even wether they are 2h or DW, but seems to be more a case of who handled gargoyle better. I just with they would tone it down, and at the same time increase its survivabilty, its a bit silly that you absolutely need to be specced into gargoyle to reach impressive numbers.

DW Spec DK's in suboptimal gear are already doing 6k+ DPS. Unholy DK's are topping out in optimal gear at the upper 5k+ range. In an ideal world Unholy will break 6k. In an ideal world DW will break 7k. This is using current WoW, pre-patch 3.0.8. I'm not trying to derail this thread, but it is interesting to note that Unholy is being beaten by a non-perfected DW spec without stat weights or perfect itemization even being determined yet. The Gargoyle is not the deciding factor in that much of a DPS discrepancy. I've had that lil bugger do 15% of my damage, and still only rock out in the upper 5k range even using AotD as well.

While your points about changes to the Gargoyle have some accuracy, I personally do not wish them to tweak with it at all other than allowing the new NotD to apply to it. If they bork up our Gargoyle, then our dps is going to be severely nerfed. Considering that Blood spec uses DRW, which is getting some massive buffage in 3.0.8, I don't think it's silly to pull so much damage from it as they will as well. Frost mages always pulled damage from their Water Elementals. Hunters pull a ton of damage from their pets. Etc, etc, etc... Unholy is defined as the pet tree for DK's. It's part of the gambit, and something Blizzard has expressly indicated that they do not wish to change.

But as Elemental Shaman were spec'ing into Enhancement to be ranged casters, and Paladins were spec'ing into Retribution to heal...I forsee an incoming change of some kind to fix the problem. Eventually Blizzard will likely move Gargoyle and Howling Blast deeper into the trees to alleviate such massive combinations which abuse the mechanics.

Tholofonos · 01/02/09, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Goetterdaemmerung

Should I always be using gargoyle on a trinket +ap proc, even if that means it will miss bloodlust for that fight? Let's assume a <3m or >6m fight (otherwise I must use it immediately).

That depends on how big the buff is, and is easily determinable with napkin math.

Let's assume my gear. I sit around 4.5k AP raid buffed. Gargoyle Strike starts at 150 damage and has a coefficient of .4 * 1.25 (for Impurity) = .5. So my Garg will hit for 1.13(150 + .5(4500)) = ~2700 per Strike. Similarly, a Gargoyle who uses 5.5k AP (when my Mirror procs) hits for ~3300.

Okay. How many strikes does a Gargoyle do over its lifetime? It's up for a minute if you do it right. Gargoyle Strike has approximately a 2.2s cast (source here). 60 / 2.2 = 27. 27 * (1+(.3 * 2/3)) (because Heroism lasts 40 out of a 60s uptime) = 32 (corroborated by this post).

So. Is 27 * 3300 greater than 32 * 2700? Math says yes, which is why I watch for Mirror procs like a hawk and save Garg for them (better still if I get Fallen Crusader or Greatness at the same time) - but I made a lot of assumptions in this post. Base AP, what's proccing, Impurity or not, and whether you're a non-orc.

To sum up: YMMV. Plug in your numbers and do a sanity check. The only surefire conclusion we can draw from all this is that Gargoyle is ridiculously good.

Zurai · 01/02/09, 2:38 AM

Impurity does not affect Gargoyle Strike.

Ebon Plague does, though.

Cuthalion · 01/02/09, 4:36 AM

Hi,

yesterday in a 10 man naxx run Wraith Spear dropped. Since there were no hunters or other classes that can use a 2hander present i got the weapon rather then disenchanting it.

Atm i am using Titansteel Destroyer.

Now if i compare both weapons, the spear has higher top end damage, but i will lose like 128 AP.
Since almost all our abilities deal a % of weapon damage u could say that the spear is better, but the loss of AP (str) will leave its marks on the diseases etc. (im Unholy).

I have been reading through alot of posts, but cant find anywere if high top end damage is much better then a certain amount of str/AP on a weapon.

So my question is: What would be the better/best weapon to use out of the 2?

reflexdk · 01/02/09, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cuthalion

Hi,

yesterday in a 10 man naxx run Wraith Spear dropped. Since there were no hunters or other classes that can use a 2hander present i got the weapon rather then disenchanting it.

Atm i am using Titansteel Destroyer.

Now if i compare both weapons, the spear has higher top end damage, but i will lose like 128 AP.
Since almost all our abilities deal a % of weapon damage u could say that the spear is better, but the loss of AP (str) will leave its marks on the diseases etc. (im Unholy).

I have been reading through alot of posts, but cant find anywere if high top end damage is much better then a certain amount of str/AP on a weapon.

So my question is: What would be the better/best weapon to use out of the 2?

From: A treatis on Weapon Speed

Originally Posted by Davia

A few clarifications for this: as an "on next swing" melee strike, Rune strike is not normalized. All of the instant strikes are though (Plague Strike, Blood Strike, Heart Strike, Obliterate, Frost Strike, Scourge Strike). And in fact, checking on Thottbot, Blood-Caked Strike (the strike that procs from Blood-Caked Blade) is normalized. And saying there is no significant difference between a 1.0 speed 2H and a 4.0 speed 2H for a DK is 100% incorrect. For a 200 DPS 2H, the .2 second difference in weapon speed between even a 3.4 and a 3.6 speed 2H means roughly 40 average weapon damage (on a 100% weapon damage attack, scaling with the %age of weapon damage an attack uses). Adding 40 to your normalized weapon damage is like adding the equivalent contribution from ~165 attack power on each instant strike.

I can't confirm the math, but hopefully this helps

Nihenna · 01/02/09, 6:42 AM

I have a question regarding using AotD on Patchwerk since I hear it's quite a nice DPS-boost for 40 seconds or how long it is now it lasts (correct me if I'm wrong with the duration.):

When is the best time to use it? Should I use it immediately at the pull or should I wait until 20% when it's a big chance that they will last until the boss is dead? Or in the middle?

I also assume I should use it, then immediately use empower rune weapon to get back nice and easy to my normal rotation?

Anybody has done any research how much of a DPS boost our little zombie friends do during the duration?

reflexdk · 01/02/09, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Nihenna

I have a question regarding using AotD on Patchwerk since I hear it's quite a nice DPS-boost for 40 seconds or how long it is now it lasts (correct me if I'm wrong with the duration.):

When is the best time to use it? Should I use it immediately at the pull or should I wait until 20% when it's a big chance that they will last until the boss is dead? Or in the middle?

I also assume I should use it, then immediately use empower rune weapon to get back nice and easy to my normal rotation?

Anybody has done any research how much of a DPS boost our little zombie friends do during the duration?

It's channeled, for 6 secs (I believe) - so if you use it at the start, and then commence your rotation using your remaining 1B 1F 1U runes, the originals should have re-charged by the time you're ready to use them.

I personally would use it at the start to get it out the way and concentrate on my rotation, although saying that are they affected by heroism? I suppose timing it just before Hero might be optimal.

Nihenna · 01/02/09, 7:07 AM

Hmm, I don't think they are getting buffs, at least I don't recall my ghoul when blood-specced getting buffs.
Didn't think of the runes actually, assumed they would recharge after the channeling was done, not when it started.

ge-off · 01/02/09, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by Scarza

Thank you...I would prefer to get the mst out of every slot so +16 STR it is.

I would like to make a note of something I recently talked to a GM about.

The 16 Str gems (Bold Scarlet Rubies) are currently in the middle of a strange bug. Actually, ALL cuts of Scarlet Rubies to be more precise. The current (known) bug is that when gemming something, if there are two [Insert cut name here] Scarlet Ruby and an enchanter's enchant (not a leg armor or shoulder enchant), the enchant actually becomes void.

Example: [Death-Inured Sabatons] with two [Bold Scarlet Ruby] in them will actually void out any enchant you try to put on them (Icewalker or the AP enchants). However, if you were to put those same two gems in [Staggering Legplates] with an [Icescale Leg Armor], everything would work just fine.

The only work-around for this is to use a different type of gem in at least one of those sockets. Hope this helps!

kilahpaladin · 01/02/09, 10:45 AM

Just wanted to first say hi to everyone in the forum here, I've been reading a real long time, and haven't posted much at all.. I just have a few concerns and questions really regarding my DK's performance.

I seem to see alot of people breaking into seriously high dps numbers, and I have to wonder if this is sustained for any period of time, or if they are only done in quick-kill scenarios?

I seem to have what I think is reasonable gear by now, and I try my damndest every night to do the best I can in raids.. My questions are, what SHOULD a reasonable target DPS number be for a DK in naxx 10 gear ?

I see DPS thrown around on here in the 5k range, and i have never once even broken 4k, on anything. Which leads me to the second part of my question,

Are OPTIMAL raid composition the way people are getting these numbers? Enhance shaman, laz0r chickens, etc, etc being stacked? In all my raids, we do not have an enhance shaman, and SOMETIMES we have a druid.. Is this the reason for the serious discrepancy? Do raid buffs make ALL that difference?

I use the rotations mentioned here all the time, currently 17/0/54 specced, I keep gargoyle up, I use my CD's, trinkets, everything; AOE on pulls, pestilence, UB, etc, etc..

Here is a link to a recent 25man sartharion kill of mine:
Wow Web Stats

In that report, you can also browse through the few naxx 25 bosses that we did..

I appologize if anyone takes my post the wrong way, but I really am concerned that im doing it wrong

Any input would be greatly appreciated..

Thanks guys!

Zadus · 01/02/09, 10:50 AM

Your expertise is god awful. Your way over the hit cap. All you need is 8 percent. Put 16 STR gems in instead of 12 STR gems.

Change those 16 ATKP and 12 STAM Gems for the 8 expertise and 12 stam. Also make sure you are doing the proper rotation.

What is probably holding you back the most is that your expertise is very very low.

kilahpaladin · 01/02/09, 11:58 AM

Hey thanks Zad for the reply; To be fair, i completely, and entirely devalued expertise to the point of not even having any of it.. It really never even crossed my mind tbh until you mentioned it..

My hit rating is soo high because of my weapon i believe.. there isnt much i can do to lower it at this point, it's not like im using any +hit gems :/

Second, im wondering if something like this is the best possible rotation:

IT - PS - SS - BS - BS - RD

(edit: i've also read people opening with something like IT - PS - BS - BS - SS - RD is good as well... which of these 2 is preferable?)

Now i kindda get confused after the first string.. at this point NOTHING is available, i've read from other threads that you would do a

IT - PS - SS - SS - SS type of deal; which seems to make sense because IT CD is up before anything else is available at this point..

I guess what im confused about, is i feel like i should be hitting an attack/ability EVERY second on EVERY CD..

After the inital string I posted, should i WAIT like 2-3 seconds for the SS's to become available? Thereby making the SECOND rotation something like

SS - SS - SS - RD? dropping the IT and PS because chances are real good SS is going to apply them anyway...

Question is just regarding what happens after the initial string.. Should i wait the 3ish seconds, or hammer IT and then PS again and drop back into SS's..

Thanks again

Tholofonos · 01/02/09, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Impurity does not affect Gargoyle Strike.

Ebon Plague does, though.

Ah, whoops. Thanks for the clarification - the rest of the method is sound, though.

To redo the numbers a bit:

That depends on how big the buff is, and is easily determinable with napkin math.

No mirror proc: 2200
Mirror proc: 2655

27*2655:71685
32*2200:70400

So, again, Mirror proc is slightly better than Heroism. However, if you have, say, Greatness or Crusader up with sufficient RP before the designated Heroism cast, cast your Garg.

It's just a decision tree - which route is optimal in a given encounter depends on the randomness of procs and your raid's Heroism timing. It's making calls like this that makes raiding so much fun.

edit@kilah: PS-IT-SS-BS-BS is optimal, IMO. PS first for 10% extra damage on our autoswings and the IT. SS before the BS because of the next part: if the death runed SS misses/is dodged, they'll come back as blood runes, forcing you to BS them. This eats up a total of 3 GCDs, which means you're edging dangerously close to getting out of the "free" delay on your UF runes. In contrast, if they come at the end of your line, all you're doing then is dumping runic, which you should have a few spare GCDs for (one of the pluses of the glyphed SS rotation is freeing your GCDs for runic dumps, which we in turn generate a lot of, especially with our 4pc).

It's an edge case, to be sure. But edge cases can be covered for without at all impacting the base case, so why not?

MatsT · 01/02/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by ge-off

I would like to make a note of something I recently talked to a GM about.

The 16 Str gems (Bold Scarlet Rubies) are currently in the middle of a strange bug. Actually, ALL cuts of Scarlet Rubies to be more precise. The current (known) bug is that when gemming something, if there are two [Insert cut name here] Scarlet Ruby and an enchanter's enchant (not a leg armor or shoulder enchant), the enchant actually becomes void.

Example: [Death-Inured Sabatons] with two [Bold Scarlet Ruby] in them will actually void out any enchant you try to put on them (Icewalker or the AP enchants). However, if you were to put those same two gems in [Staggering Legplates] with an [Icescale Leg Armor], everything would work just fine.

The only work-around for this is to use a different type of gem in at least one of those sockets. Hope this helps!

You must be missing something else. My [Death-Inured Sabatons] with two [Bold Scarlet Ruby] in them works fine with icewalker, and the 20 hit on gloves also work fine with double [Bold Scarlet Ruby]. Could you take two screens on your character screen before and after unequipping your boots?

Zadus · 01/02/09, 12:05 PM

First off lets make sure your using the right glyphs.

Scourge Strike Glyph
Icy Touch Glyph
Ghoul Glyph

Now for a rotation.

PS IT BS BS SS then Unholy Blight (First rotation)

Now you do

SS SS BS BS basically and when you get 100 runic power you pop gargoyal. In the middle of gargoyal pop empowered rune weapon.

Always watch your diseases. If you need to refresh them go back to step 1 and do so.

If they get refreshed then you keep blood striking when it comes up and you need to convert death runes and you keep doing SS!

Of course also please keep unholy blight up as much as possible.

Now to note. There WILL be times where you have NOTHING to do. Sometimes u have to wait for things to come off cooldown. This is where BCB and Necrosis help you out.

Just remember to watch your diseases, Scourge strike will keep them up on their own alot, if so just keep SS'ing and BSing.

And yes, you need expertise, a dodge in your rotation can REALLY mess you up.

Kardiz · 01/02/09, 12:19 PM

I am sure this has been mentioned but I haven't seen anything discussing it in detail yet unless I am just blind and missed it but I am looking for information on armor pen rating needed for blood, frost, unholy and tri spec.

Or does it even matter as much as it would for other physical dps classes?

Tholofonos · 01/02/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kardiz

I am sure this has been mentioned but I haven't seen anything discussing it in detail yet unless I am just blind and missed it but I am looking for information on armor pen rating needed for blood, frost, unholy and tri spec.

Or does it even matter as much as it would for other physical dps classes?

First of all, this is a question more suited for the Simple Question/Simple Answer thread.

Second of all, the answer is in the first post of this thread, in the AP weighting of every relevant stat for every 2h spec. Armor Pen rating is worst for Unholy (barely half an AP) and best for Blood (1.3 AP).

As for the "tri spec", check the DW thread to see if they have the AP weightings of stats. If you can't find it, then ask in the Simple Questions thread.

Eucharion · 01/02/09, 12:29 PM

Kilah, you could probably drop 2 points from virulence (given the excess hit on your gear) and pop them into necrosis (or a point from virulence and a point from corpse explosion; pre-patch that is a wasted point) which may give a little boost; check my profile for the cookie cutter 17/0/54.

I'm hitting similar numbers to you based on the couple of heroic VoA runs I've done, and your gear is considerably better, so I suspect it comes down to misunderstanding why we use the Scourge Strike glyph (to get more SS from our frost/unholy runes, whilst keeping disease uptime as close to 100% as possible), and possibly not making appropriate use of RP dumps - are you wasting RP by allowing it to cap out by doing your RP dumps after you've used the runes in the rotation?

kilahpaladin · 01/02/09, 12:52 PM

are you wasting RP by allowing it to cap out by doing your RP dumps after you've used the runes in the rotation?

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure I am Euch.. Basically, I do believe it comes down to my rotation, I need to work on some things i've learned here so far..

Basically I get lost after the first real rotation, the IT - PS - BS - BS - SS, then RD.. I get this part.. but the next part is the puzzling one (and the only one that persists through an entire encounter).

For the most part, I just keep juggling between BS and SS, whichever one is up, is the one I use.. i'm sure this is entirely the wrong way to go about this..

I think zad helped clarify a little by saying there WILL be times when you have nothing available.. and thats where i start to get confused, i just start using whatever comes up on CD first, rather than waiting on certain runes to become available.. beit icy touch, ps, whatever.. as long as its a strike and im not standing there doing nothing in my mind is better.. but now i dont think it is :P

And yeah zad, those are the glyphs i use currently..

Eucharion · 01/02/09, 2:02 PM

Well kilah, I'd suggest you spend some time getting acquainted with a dummy. Whenever I'm trying out a new spec, I'll start with a couple of 5 minute runs on a training dummy just running through aiming to hit rune cooldowns cleanly, while keeping disease uptime as close to 100% as I can. Then, once I've got the feel for that, I'll do a couple of 5 minute runs concentrating mainly on RP generation and dumping. Don't be afraid to drop an unholy blight if it is about to drop (or a deathcoil if it isn't) and a BS is about to come up - the 2 seconds leeway you get is precisely to allow you to do this - try to get a feel for if hitting the BS will take you over 100, and use a dump if it will.

Then I'll do a couple of runs tying the two together, before trying to throw gargoyle into the mix (without focusing on trinket procs), then a couple of runs aiming for a new "high score" where I bring everything in together. The key to this process is that you work on each of the aspects until you are strong at them, then get them to gel. Once it clicks, you can then apply it even when moving.

• frmorrison · 01/02/09, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by MatsT

You must be missing something else. My [Death-Inured Sabatons] with two [Bold Scarlet Ruby] in them works fine with icewalker, and the 20 hit on gloves also work fine with double [Bold Scarlet Ruby]. Could you take two screens on your character screen before and after unequipping your boots?

I am interested in this bug too.

I have 2x 16 str gems in my chest armor with 8 to all stats. When I put on the chest, my character sheet stats go up as they should (quickly seen by having 8 more spirit than before).

kilahpaladin · 01/02/09, 3:09 PM

Euch, or anyone for that matter.. Can you please provide a target DPS number for what I can/should expect to see from a target dummy with naxx 10 gear? (equiv to my gear level) I don't want to beat a dead horse, But I really just want to see where I should be landing once im doing it right

Unbuffed, just normal DK buffs, horn, etc would be very helpful.. Thanks again!

bosox2k1 · 01/02/09, 3:14 PM

I did around 3100 on the Ebon Hold Boss dummy just last night. Check out my armory for my gear. I have no valorous tier pieces, but some 25 man stuff.

kilahpaladin · 01/02/09, 3:40 PM

ty bosox.. much appreciated, now I at least know something to shoot for.. I can't seem to break around 2100 doing what I normally do to a herioc/boss dummy..

One other question, I noticed you are wearing the Emblem of Heroism Sigil.. I still haven't changed out my old one for that one.. Does it work wonders for your DPS ? Is it a considerable upgrade? I'm just kind of wondering if once that changes to crit, if it will be even better than it is now..

I've been trying to find something to replace mine, but again, like expertise, i didnt THINK haste was that good of a stat to itemize for..

In any event, im sure that sigil is better than the stock blue one correct? :P

Cabal · 01/02/09, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by kilahpaladin

ty bosox.. much appreciated, now I at least know something to shoot for.. I can't seem to break around 2100 doing what I normally do to a herioc/boss dummy..

One other question, I noticed you are wearing the Emblem of Heroism Sigil.. I still haven't changed out my old one for that one.. Does it work wonders for your DPS ? Is it a considerable upgrade? I'm just kind of wondering if once that changes to crit, if it will be even better than it is now..

I've been trying to find something to replace mine, but again, like expertise, i didnt THINK haste was that good of a stat to itemize for..

In any event, im sure that sigil is better than the stock blue one correct? :P

Could I suggest you read

Death Knight: PvE DPS

Please? As you are completely clueless, and thats the post to read to cover all the basics.