Bloody_sorcerer

You're also dropping a flat 4% ability damage while blood plague is up, losing wandering plague, night of the dead, and unholy aura.

 

Mulgero

Seeing lots of places mentioned of "typical" aoe rotation being

PS -> IT -> Pest -> DnD -> UB

This is maybe optimal on paper but in practise I have had different results.

I've been getting far better results by throwing DnD first due being able to use it on range and it gets CF/EP multiplier once they're applied on the fly (typically ticks 2-3 times before I'm at PS range which will result 2nd DnD being available couple seconds earlier). Naturally using IT before PS while still running behind the mob but depends a bit situation. Since trash doesn't live much longer than 1 round of DnD typically in heroics or Naxx10 at least.

DnD (while running) -> PS/IT -> Pest -> BS/UB depending runes/bloodtap/RP.

Also if mobs last longer than 15sec, I can again start rotation with DnD and it gets CF/EP benefit due diseases lasting 18sec.

 

• Zurm

Opening with D&D first definitely gives more damage, but the reason I personally don't use it is to give the tanks time to get aggro. Even in BP/UP, it hits pretty hard and does decent threat, and I find myself dying a lot less if I open with a PS->IT->Pest.

 

Kintaru

Wouldn't opening with PS-IT-Pest before DnD be the highest DPS anyways due to Rage of Rivendare?

 

Lujaar

I did some napkinmath on Blood Strike vs Blood Boil, and Scourge Strike + BS/BB vs Death and Decay. The average damages below are probably slightly off, but if anyone cares I can post the formulas I'm using. Regardless, the numbers look reasonable. The only place where I might be off is the exact point of inflection between BS and BB.


Assume 6K AP, 40% crit, 30% spell crit, Betrayer of Humanity. Ebon Plague is up, primary target is a fully debuffed raid boss (about 7900 armor). 5/5 Impurity, 2/2 Vicious Strikes, 3% crit damage meta, misses/dodges/parries not accounted for.

Blood Strike average damage: 1498
Scourge Strike average damage: 4578
Blood Boil average damage per target, 0/3 Outbreak: 618
Blood Boil, 2/3 Outbreak: 741
Blood Boil, 3/3 Outbreak: 803
Death and Decay Average damage per target, over 10 ticks: 5271

By my calculations, on even two targets DnD is the best possible use of a set of BFU runes. If DnD is on cooldown, Blood Boil > Blood Strike on 3+ targets. If for some reason you have 3/3 Outbreak, BB > BS even with only 2 targets.

 

Cadman

Im sorry if this has been addressed already. Been reading the thread didnt really see anything on it. So im 17/54 unholy and with the rotation of IT PS BS BS SS RD SS SS SS RD i seem to be getting alot of dead time where my runes are not up and i have no runic power to dump. So instead I use IT PS BS BS SS RD SS BS BS SS RD wiht that i rarely have any dead time and i have enough runic power for 2 DCs. Now using this rotation am i losing alot of dps? On the dummis i seem to get more out of the rotation i use instead of the 3 SS one. Any replys?

 

level12wizard

There's no reason to use two blood runes on Blood Strikes instead of Scourge Strike. Ever.

Scourge Strike is a core part of your "rotation" because you need to keep diseases up with the Glyph of SS and use IT/PS as little as possible. Not to mention all the boosts it gets from T7 bonuses, the Heigan sigil, etc. Blood Strikes are nothing but filler to get Death Runes, pure and simple.

 

Cadman

yea figured that much i just hate how clunky the 3 SS part of the rotation is i find myself spending gcd doing nothing ehh just dont like it

 

Longshots

Are you 4/5 in T7? With 4 SS's in a rotation you get an extra DC during the GCD that you can't do anything. You can also consider using the GCD to refresh Horn of Winter or resummon your ghoul if it's died.

It kind of works out so that you have a GCD to do something besides a strike.

 

Cadman

not 4/5 yet just somtimes i get stuck with no runic power to fill the void. was wondering if spots where your waiting for runes was the norm i guess it is thanks for the help guys

 

Bullshifter

Quick question- I'm currently using the cookie cutter spec linked on the first page, and I absolutely love the dps and raid utility provided by it, and the fact that I seem to always be able to get my pet back up if it dies. My question relates to the 3.08 changes to Corpse Explosion. Will the changes mean that it will be more effective to use the same current spec with perhaps one point shifted out of Virulence into Corpse Explosion? Or will we be using the same spec post patch, as things stand now?

 

Fireflash38

I don't have a set RP dump period when I am DPSing. I RP dump when the next ability will take me over 100 (unless diseases are going to fall off). The usual RP dump that I use is UB, unless it is a fight where I will have to be off the target soonish (Sapph, Anub, etc, not that common).

Assuming that you are starting off with 0 RP, so you won't have full RP after the first Rune usage.

 

MCABoy24

This thread helps me... somewhat... im surprised to see no1 has a Frost Unholy spec thread...

 

Gehenna

Due to the high number of high ilvl items with expertise, I also used to spec in this manner.
For a long time, the best DPR (damage per rune) for me came from BS; however recently SS is pulling well ahead.
With the possible changes to make BS glyph work on raid bosses, this type of spec might be able to pull ahead for many situations again. Much of it depends on gear (notably the sigil) and raid make-up (BS performs better with armor debuffs). I also wish veteran of the third war would move down 1 spot to help fill up those first 20 talent points.

 

level12wizard

I severely doubt a Bloody Strikes build would out-do a build with 5/5 RoR, Unholy Blight, and Wandering Plague.

Even on fights like Patchwerk, my Wandering Plague out-does Blood Strike in total damage while only using it to get Death Runes. I'm never going to use Death Runes on Blood Strike, I have Glyph of Scourge Strike for a reason.

Not to mention Wandering Plague's usefulness in AoE (Sartharion+3), alongside UB. The 4% damage to EVERYTHING YOU DO from RoR is huge too.

This "extra RP per rune" theory makes no sense either. Dirge'd Plague Strike is 15 RP, Glyphed Icy Touch is 20 RP, Dirge'd and T7'd Scourge Strike is 30 RP. You should be running those glyphs/talents, and 4pc T7 should ultimately be a goal if you don't have it.

 

jaffee

First of all, I'd like to thank you guys for having such a great website where there can be some intelligent discussion concerning death knights, the other classes, or WoW in general. I'm a first time poster and plan to post many other times.


My post was inspired by a discussion in the Blood thread about the hit to gargoyle damage (from 1000dps/1min to 700dps/30sec), and ed me to consider our pet. I'm hoping it's balanced by a buff to adjust the lack of utility of our pet. The static ghoul (when taken with the talent) simply doesn't seem worth it to me. The damn thing dies so often and I waste so much gold summoning the thing that its worth, especially in boss fights that use AoE, is questionable at best. I'm interested to see what people playing on the PTR have to say about any changes to the pet. I had heard that there were some made so that they're less gimpy, but I haven't looked at any patch notes detailing anything specific.

While I recognize (and appreciate) that we're not a pet class, I'm sitting at about 1450 dps in H-VH with pet, if I recall correctly. I'm your typical 17/0/54 spec, and my gear is lackluster. I dinged 80 last week, and I'm starting to fill out my gear with the "Pre-Raid DK Gear List" recommendations (thanks a bunch for that, by the way). I'd love to think my dps is low because of my gear, but I think that the pet dying so frequently has a hand in that. At level 80 the pet does ~200dps if I'm not mistaken.. Because we are not a pet class, I think this is appropriate, and should scale with gear and abilities of the toon as to retain its worth later in the raid progression. It is survivability that I'm concerned about, I suppose.

The entire thing makes me want to spec blood for that single-target DPS action.

Thoughts?

 

Ashur25

Several

1) Your Ghoul will get 70% passive avoidance in 3.0.8 so it will die a lot less than now (and this presumably applies to Gargoyle as well)

2) Glyph of Raise Dead is changed in 3.0.8 to not require a reagent, so your money problems in that regard will go away

3) Ghoul does up to 5-600 dps wenn fully geared and buffed, it's well worth to have it

4) Gargoyle nerf isn't as big as people make it out to be since you can't death coil much during Gargoyle. The differance between Gargoyle and Death coiling isn't THAT big and is mostly compensated through other buffs (Notd change, Necrosis buff, new sigils if you don't have the heigan one, reduced RP cost of Unholy blight)

5) Your subpar dps is mostly due to your low expertise/hit und AP and your pets not dying probably wouldn't change your dps much

6) If you don't like having to watch out for your pets respeccing to blood is a good option since it does good dps too and doesn't rely on pets that can dy because of AoE

 

jaffee

Thanks for the reply

A few follow up questions:

1. I'm slowly trying to gain hit rating, should I also prioritize expertise, then?

2. What other specific talents should I have, if any, other than the 17/0/54 build presented here on ElitistJerks to maximize my PVE DPS output? If someone would be so kind to check my Armory and see if I look like I've got everything done pretty well, I'd be VERY appreciative.

3. If there isn't much of a DPS burst from Garg now (over DC), is it still worth the talent and rotation adjustment required to field it in 3.0.8?

More as they come to me..

Thanks again

 

Broseph

Two things. First: Jaffe, just a friendly warning. Check my armory posts are *severely* frowned upon here. These boards are pretty much reserved for more detailed theory questions/explorations.

Second, regarding question 3, the gargoyle nerf is huge. Currently, a fully raid buffed gargoyle can be expected to hit for ~3500 every ~2 seconds whereas deathcoil hits for ~2500 and is used at most three times per 10 seconds. The DPS gained by summoning your gargoyle is the *difference* between ~3 deathcoils per 10 seconds and the DPS of the gargoyle... so the 20% damage reduction reduces the DPS *increase* by much more than 20% (probably closer to 50%). Factor in the 50% duration cut and the total DPS gained by summoning your gargoyle is much, much lower than on live. That said, it still is an efficient RP dump and is still the best use of a talent point that low down in the tree.

 

Ashur25

1) I'd say don't overemphasize it, hit and strength is more important

2) The OP post has the cookie cutter one, use that. It's currently the best for maximising dps

3) Yes, using Gargoyle > Death coil (especially if you pop it with most/all of your AP buff + Heroism up)

 

Bloodmourne

1. Expertise cap is important, but not as valuable as Hit cap and Strength

3. Gargoyle will still be worth getting with the nerf. Still a valuable source of DPS

 

Orlgin

Don't forget that the glyph of the ghoul is being buffed quite a bit. The extra stamina is just as important as the avoidance. Some Deathknights already drop to 1 or even zero Night of the Dead because the healers are good enough to handle the AoE damage their ghouls are taking. With 1 point in Night of the Dead with the Glyph (which you should take for the DPS), your ghoul should survive even heavy AoE situations with good healers. That frees a point for more DPS.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Goetterdaemmerung

The point at which you need to decide whether to put points into NotD, you are deciding between that and the final point into Virulence/Outbreak, or a point into Desecration. Once you fill the rest of the spec out, you're left with yet another point with the same alternatives. It's my opinion that NotD is the best choice, at both junctures.

 

kurokaze

So every single DPS DK in my guild is Unholy except me. I started writing a rant on our forums about how the situation was ridiculous and that we should figure out someone to be Unholy and have the rest spec something without stacking issues. I tried to math up the severe DPS loss these people were inflicting on themselves and the raid... and got some surprising results:

Assume you get ridiculously lucky on glyph procs and never have to PS/IT. So we're looking at 5 SS and 2 BS every 20 sec. Throw in an optimistic 2 BCB procs. Assume 2000 normalized weapon damage.

Shadow damage multiplier: 100% * 95.5% (level resists) * 113% (EP) * 110% (RoR) * 115% (BP) * 102% (Bone Shield) = 139%
Physical damage multiplier: 100& * 81% (armor) * 115% (BP) * 110% (RoR) * 102% (Bone Shield) = 104.5%

Damage lost per SS: 95.25 * 139% = ~132.5
Damage lost per BS: 95.5 * 104.5% = ~100
Damage lost per BCS: 2000 * 12.5% * 104.5% = 261.25

5x SS + 2x BS + 2x BCS = 1385
1385 / 20 = 69.25 DPS

I did discount that the abilities could crit, but I didn't count misses/dodges either, and I estimated rather high on the SS/BCS frequency. So yeah, the difference is significant enough so that it would be nice for the bug to be fixed, but it's not enough to really necessitate spec coordination or worry about 'disease fighting' at all.

Did I miss anything?

 

Fireflash38

I did some quick napkin math back when a guildie was saying that it was worthless to have more than 1 Unholy in the raid. I came up with about the same thing: it is a DPS loss, but it is not like you are going to go from 3k to 2k DPS. I have anecdotal evidence as well, but no one cares about that =P.