AmeroGER

So I guess this is going to be the new version
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9614

although, I'm unsure wether pulling a point out of blood for BCB might be worth it. Also 2 Points in Runic Power Mastery seems extremely cheap and handy.
And I'm almost 100% sure that Icy Touch Glyph will be replaced with Death Coil. I still haven't read which glyphs are going to be major but Death Coil is probably just too powerful for minor. Same for Unholy Blight.

 

Nerub

I'd put the two points from BCB into Imp. UP. We don't know yet if Ulduar contains movement-heavy fights but I guess it will. RPM is debatable, it's more a convenience talent. We'll dish out more DCs per rotation but we have enough spare GCDs to do so without capping RP.

 

ksearo

I'm hesitant to do that. In looking at recount, BCB accounts for a little over 3% of my damage. Unless IUP makes UP the new presence to dps in, I would assume the points would be better spent in BCB.

The switching of Virulence and Morbidity and the change to Outbreak create a shortage of talent points; namely BcB and Necrosis. Which of these should be drop, or should some other talent be dropped? From what I have seen in my own recount meter, each point of BcB is ~1% of my damage while Necrosis is only ~0.69%. At the moment, I have set my talents up like this: 17/0/54

I've mulled over this build ever since mmo updated the calculator and I have yet to think of a better place to up points (maybe removing the points from IUP into Necrosis). However, this assumes IUH isn't wortht he points, which it very well might be.

 

Marloc

I have had my necrosis be as much as 6-8% if I remember correctly, so I dont know how your Necrosis does less than 5% of your total dps.

Also, from reading previous posts, even if they make the ghoul frenzy not be channeled, it still offsets rotations and could probably be a dps downgrade, but don't take my word for it, I only briefly skimmed through the posts

 

Foxx2405

Thats odd, my necrosis accounts for more than 1% damage per point.
As a matter of fact in some fights my necrosis is insanely high. In yesterdays Loatheb kill it was 10% of my total dps where my white dps was 20%. Probably due to all the buffs or something, but it surprised me.
If your necrosis does that little that doesn't seem totally right.

Also dont forget that BCB is getting a big nerf. Some people have calculated that its potential will drop by 25-50%. That means that even if BCB is currently 1% per point, it will only be 0.5% per point after the patch.

But as far as that talent build goes, i wouldn't get a spec without at least 5/5 in necrosis. ATM i put some filler points in BCB, but that is because i dont know how well Ghoul Frenzy and Imp UP are gonna be.
For just personal speed the latter seems quite expensive, and the former gives so little dps increase that i doubt its worth the unholy rune.

 

Mupushalosho

Hello there i am getting pretty depressed lately over my unholy build performance in raids.I see here people posting some crazy 4800+ dps on Patchwerk and when i see my 3300-3800 want to delete my DK.My problem is when i had some pre 25 man raid gear i was doing around 3.2 3.3k dps, and now with pretty much everything replaced with 25 man content gear my dps doenst seems to go much higher, its like im capped at 3.3k 3.4k, for majority of the raid.

Here is my armory:http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...n=Plaguebreath

Today i decided to see whats my dps on Heroic target dummy self buffed, it apears for 3 minute fight i am between 2900-3000 DPS, depending on how much desecration procs.

Used gargoyle with mirror of thruth proc and RFC it was adding 770 dps my ghoul is doing 290-300 DPS.

So my question is, what the hell im supposed to improve to see the big numbers on patchwerk i have arround 5700 AP in raid we bring 1-2 frostfire mages and 2 warlocks per raid the rest is pretty much ret palas, fury warriors, hunters.
I am ussualy in top 5 on dmg metter with highest doing arround 3800-4200 dps, depending on the fight.
The highest numer ive seen is 3800-3900 on patchwerk.
I am using glpyhs of icy touch,ghoul and blood strike.


All advices apriciated.

 

Mulgero

Don't really want to bash you but have you read these forums and first posts of threads at all? At first your gear looks great but then +20spell pene on chest, ap/hit gem, almost 400 hit rating with 2h weapon, no SS glyph. 1 in Outbreak, only 3 in desecration... You're just doing lot of things wrong. I don't want to even guess what is your skill rotation.

Starting gear aim to 263 hit rating which caps your melee. Depending of your raid setup you might want some extra hit rating to cap spells too. You're over the expertise cap as well so another wasted stat points. JC gem from gloves should be changed to belt to get set bonus from there. JC gems will take care of meta requirement and use those to get decent socket bonuses. For rest just use str gems.

 

Taizu

Mupu, read the first post. Your build is not optimal (desecration has been proven to be useless in a typical unholy rotation), your glyph choices can use some work (replace blood strike with SS), and I would assume your rotation is probably whacked.

Read and reread the posts again.

 

Bullshifter

Well, you're well above hit capped, first off. I'd swap any of those hit gems you have for straight up strength for starters. And probably lose the Icewalker enchant for AP enchant. Other than that your gear looks pretty decent- though I'd work on getting a 4th pc of Tier, probably the valor legs, since you're so overbudget on hit you can lose those Staggering legplates with no regrets. Check out the spec on the first post of this thread, it will probably provide much better returns for you- you definitely need dirge, and lose the point in Outbreak, it's not good at all in it's current form (though in 3.1 look out )

After that it's about how you're going about dps'ing. My basic advice is to read the first post in this thread.

 

Mupushalosho

I can see your point i know bout the 2 sucky gems i have im changing my lingerie this week with t7.5 and will put proper gem there instead of 16 ap 8 hit been with those panties for quite some time as for the chest im using it for PVP thats why its 20SP gem (VOA haven't rewarded me with deadly pieces at all ;\),and t7.5 for raids with proper gems there.I know the hit is too much i have nobles deck but have to wait 2 weeks before i get the trinket and i lost Bandits insignia couple of times already.Reason not to use SS glyph is because i read the forums but was some other topic regarding unholy 2h dps and it was suggested there that SS glyph sux tho im gonna get 1 now.The rotation i was using is PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-DC and second SS-SS-SS-rp dump.I am using my garg when i have trinket or Rune of fallen crusader.Since our fights tend to last longer i use 2 garg per most fights and second one is with Heroism, i use AOTD pre pull.What else can i add ... also using 4 piece t7.5 with unholy build.

 

Neckface

Beating on the Ebon Hold target dummy on the PTR I'm also getting around 3% of my damage from BCB, and only 1.92% from Morbidity (that's with my weapon speed at 3.1; with raid buffs that would drop to just below 3.0, reducing BCB damage by by around 20%, according to my tests autoattacking in both blood and unholy presence).

I'm betting that with Blood spec, with Sudden Doom procs and no Unholy Blight using RP, Morbidity will beat out BCB.

But the bigger issue is that these numbers were generated without using ghoul or gargoyle, which will both end up comprising a large % of "real life" damage. So while it's worth knowing which talents are better, it looks they're both going to be pretty weak.

Does anybody understand the logic of the BCB nerf? Why penalize people who end up slightly below 3.0 weapon speed?

Edit: Quick theorycrafting comment on BCB nerf. I've been trying to figure out how to model it (as opposed to testing it emprically) and just came up with this: if there's a 30% chance per hit of it proccing, and your last swing is always within the previous 3 seconds, then there is also a 30% chance that you're within the internal cooldown. Thus there is a 70% chance that your BCB can proc at all, so final proc rate is 30% * 70% or 21%. (Note that this is lower than my observed rate of 24% in tests.) Make sense?

 

Mythos

I agree BCB contributes too much to drop a point from. While I'm still doing my testing on PTR, I'm wondering if cutting a point from Bladed Armor in blood may perhaps be worthwhile. Getting raw attack power is so valuable though that we need a clearer understanding of the DPS contribution of each point in Unholy to be sure which wins out.

 

Wosk

I find that Necrosis gets me more damage per point than BCB does. Are you perhaps testing this on a dummy that is sitting at 1HP? It has been mentioned many times that target dummies are not accurate for Necrosis damage as it won't overkill.

 

methods

If you are thinking of dropping any points from Blood I would say Dark conviction is your best candidate. AP is still far too valuable.

To comment on BCB, Necrosis is more damage per point and so I wouldn't suggest dropping it at all. Outbreak has become an absolute must so there needs to be some shuffling obviously. In all honesty there is just too much else to justify maxing out BCB post nerf. I guess you could get 1 point in Epidemic now that diseases are 15 seconds but something tells me that would also be an overall dps loss (3 more seconds to get a SS proc is HUGE but is very hard to model in a spreadsheet).

 

Sellout

I finally got over to the test realm last night and was able to test out BB and BS on a raid dummy. I understand that a test dummy is not 100% accurate however I wanted to report that blood boil was doing just as much damage if not right behind BS by a hair. I would love to test this with full raid buffs/debuffs but it seems that BB can come close to replacing BS. I have to note however something that has large impact which is my weapon, The Jawbone. It is no betrayer and I am assuming in the circumstance you have one, BB will not replace BS.

I dared to dream of old times!

However this may mean something to DW specs I guess?

 

Stoical

I think this is right, and going further than Bladed Armor, out of Morbidity, Necrosis, BcB, and Dark Conviction, I think Dark Conviction is where you'd want to lose points. I ran some numbers on an all-25s boss parse I have (Sarth+3D, all of Naxx, Malygos) to get a broader picture and avoid any anti-Patchwerk comments, and it looks like I'm getting 1.04% per point of Necrosis, .96% per point of Morbidity, .71% per point of BcB, and .6% per point of Dark Conviction. Keep in mind the crit from that talent doesn't benefit gargoyle or ghoul, and D&D only gets a 1.5x multiplier, that's why it has the lower number.

Looking at only single-target fights, Morbidity and BcB may swap places, but Dark Conviction remains steady at around .6% per point. We'll have to see how badly the nerf hits BcB; it'll have to be more than a 10%-15% nerf for it to drop below Dark Conviction.

 

Tadyrius

This is wrong for the test, first of all, the ability is not on CD, it`s rather the GCD that prevents the usage from ANY Spell, you don`t wait for runes or the like to refresh, this is 100% not the reason I lost time.
Anyways I think that you don`t lose time even if you wait for stuff to refresh and it`s not the GCD that prevents you from using it, that problem was noticed by Blizzard time ago and already has been taken care of, as far as i know (mage friend of mine told me about that).

 

somedude988

Hello all, long time reader first time poster. I've seen it mentioned briefly, and have noticed myself, that when I switch from BP>FP and likewise FP>BP, that the change in armor does effect how much AP Bladed Armor gives, but it takes quite a while to have an effect on the AP in your character tooltip.

In my current gear unbuffed, my AP changes from 3839>4135. My question is if after I switch to BP, the AP is in effect instantly lowered and only the tooltip lags, or do I have another 296 AP for the duration this calculation takes? The implication is to possibly use FP while waiting for a pull/during AotD summon, and to switch to BP right before you actually hit the boss.

I'm aware that the first BS in the rotation would be set back a bit by this, but 296 AP is not a small amount, especially when its effecting AotD, and the calculation time is pretty long. Admittedly I have only skimmed through some of the pages in this thread, but I have thoroughly read the rest and have not seen mention of this.

I'm willing to do some testing, but first wanted to check your thoughts on the usefulness of even utilizing this/if anyone else had already proven it one way or the other.

 

Tenaka

I doubt that would work, but even if it did, I doubt it would be worth losing a BS over

 

somedude988

You certainly aren't losing a BS. It's only being delayed a small amount.

Switch to BP(cooldown starts)>PS(8.5s on cooldown)>IT(7s on cooldown)>SS(5.5s)>UB(4s)>BS(2.5s)

After all this you are waiting another GCD from the first BS, so you'd have 1s left on the rune CD for the next BS. A 1 second wait is worth the AP boost in my opinion. Feel free to point out any errors in the way I have calculated this, but I believe it's correct.

 

Glac

Now that our disease last 15sec as a base, are people putting points into Epidemic? I skipped this talent because it just seems worthless now. It seems these points can be put into Necrosis which I feel is a better pick.

 

Tenaka

Yeah, that's true, and it's something I realized after I posted. Just didn't want to edit it saying what you would already point out

Either way, I personally think it's tooltip lag, but it's something I will test in tonights raid

 

keltzed

I haven't done the testing to say for sure, but pushing your disease duration out to 21-24 seconds (depending on whether they go through and add the third point) seems valuable for scourge strike builds. Longer durations = more scourge strikes to refresh disease durations = fewer FU runes spent on things other than scourge strike.

Of course, this is all dependent on how scourge strike and plague strike+icy touch compare in damage for you, but with all the boosts to scourge strike in the current patch, it seems likely to me that a SS will out-damage a plague strike + icy touch.

 

methods

IT + PS on average will do ~68% of a SS. RP is another concern since we'll be 'losing' 4T7 but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

 

Neckface

What we need is some good math that explains the value of the SS Glyph relative to the duration of your diseases. The value of the glyph goes down as duration increases (e.g., if diseases last 10 minutes you wouldn't use the glyph at all, right?). Likewise, as disease duration gets longer the probability of them being refreshed by the glyph increases, so each incremental extension in duration is less valuable. So Epidemic is actually less valuable than it was a few days ago, for people who have the Glyph.