Unholy DPS Discussion - Page 62

Shimerra · 01/04/09, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Eucharion

With that said, desecration has been discussed throughout this thread, and it boils down to preference. Some feel that as keeping 100% uptime on mobility fights is impossible, and there are very few stand still and dps fights, desecration is sub par. Others feel that they get enough out of it, and the snare gives additional utility for fights like Gluth. Try it for yourself and see.

It's not really preference it's been pretty definitively proven that this is a very poor place to put talent points. At it's best with 5/5 and a 100% proc rate it isn't even a 1% increase per point and movement fights as well as the use of the SS glyph which every unholy DK should be using cause further hemorrhaging of the already small DPS gains from this talent. As a general rule of thumb its best to skip this talent.

Leaflock · 01/04/09, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

The Gargoyle is not the deciding factor in that much of a DPS discrepancy.
...
If they bork up our Gargoyle, then our dps is going to be severely nerfed.

Hmm.

Cabal is right that the common factor in all the highest scoreboard posts is that every single one of them won the RNG lottery with cooldowns/procs/crits, and they all have gargoyle as a substantial portion of their damage. Yes, there are other factors that make Unholy and DW capable of putting out absurd burst over a sub-3-minute Patchwerk fight, but the fact that a single 21-point talent can average out to 1000 dps over that duration does figure in a bit.

I think the larger point to take away is that a small sample of the highest figures ever achieved is certainly not indicative of what the "best" or "only worthwhile" spec is, or any other similar nonsense. Besides the fact that lots of guilds don't upload to that site (and/or to WWS), you might also notice that no one person's name appears twice on any of those lists, despite a spread of 300-600+ dps from #1-#10 on most of them. That's right, they only did it once, and more typically don't do that much. The highest dps you've ever done isn't anywhere near as significant as how much dps you can do consistently on every fight.

everwatch · 01/05/09, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Leaflock

Hmm.

Cabal is right that the common factor in all the highest scoreboard posts is that every single one of them won the RNG lottery with cooldowns/procs/crits, and they all have gargoyle as a substantial portion of their damage. Yes, there are other factors that make Unholy and DW capable of putting out absurd burst over a sub-3-minute Patchwerk fight, but the fact that a single 21-point talent can average out to 1000 dps over that duration does figure in a bit.

I think the larger point to take away is that a small sample of the highest figures ever achieved is certainly not indicative of what the "best" or "only worthwhile" spec is, or any other similar nonsense. Besides the fact that lots of guilds don't upload to that site (and/or to WWS), you might also notice that no one person's name appears twice on any of those lists, despite a spread of 300-600+ dps from #1-#10 on most of them. That's right, they only did it once, and more typically don't do that much. The highest dps you've ever done isn't anywhere near as significant as how much dps you can do consistently on every fight.

Again, NO. Gargoyle is not an indicative point of reasoning to explain dps discrepancies of over 1000 points. And that is not just from WoW Meter Online. Screenshots of more than one DK doing 6k+ dps in the DW forums here exist. And these people are not even using what would be considered the optimal gear. None of them are using the 170dps 1.6 speed axes, or have all best in slot items.

Whereas we do have SS's and WWS's etc showing Unholy DK's with Betrayer of Humanity, and amazing gear, topping out in the 5k range (Recount numbers, not WWS or WMO) while DW is topping out in the 6k range.

BOTH SPECS, DW and Unholy, USE GARGOYLE. It's not like one spec has it, and the other does not. And as far as winning the RNG lottery...Unholy wins just as often as DW does. I've yet to see a SS of a Recount report of 6k+ dps from Unholy, or even seen a WWS for Unholy that beats the best WWS's for DW. And I've seen WWS's with higher than normal crit averages, etc... And even if you find one WWS...can you find multiples? DW has multiple WWS's with higher numbers than Unholy.

DW is doing more. It's fine. It's the current mechanics. And Blizzard has already posted that it's maybe not an issue (and trying to get a PC spin on the matter so people don't think thet messed up), and that an incoming patch may be nerfing it. They could simply solve the issue by changing the mechanic behind KM, and then moving HB and Gargoyle both deeper into the trees. Changes like that will likely happen over the course of time. But it is a clear and evident point already that DW is surpassing any existing spec available atm.

jayclev · 01/05/09, 2:32 AM

I wanted some feedback on the viability of a build I saw posted on the WoWWiki.com website under DK sample builds. Whoever wrote the article stated that this 'Necromancer' unholy DPS build (0/18/53) requires you to dual wield and will generate more damage than any 2H build could ever generate! Is this possible? Does anyone have any first hand experience with this build?

Thanks.

Broseph · 01/05/09, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by Leaflock

Hmm.

Cabal is right that the common factor in all the highest scoreboard posts is that every single one of them won the RNG lottery with cooldowns/procs/crits

Just pointing out that either Ren "won the RNG lottery" two weeks in a row (his patchwerk numbers this week are even more impressive than last week's. See http://elitistjerks.com/1038026-post822.html), or Everwatch is right that spec (and, particularly in Ren's case, skill) have more to do with it.

Consistent numbers are emerging for DW, and they are extremely high.

Leaflock · 01/05/09, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

Again, NO. Gargoyle is not an indicative point of reasoning to explain dps discrepancies of over 1000 points.

...

BOTH SPECS, DW and Unholy, USE GARGOYLE. It's not like one spec has it, and the other does not. And as far as winning the RNG lottery...Unholy wins just as often as DW does.

1) I'm not saying Gargoyle is the point of reasoning to explain dps discrepancies. I'm saying it can do 1000 dps over the duration of a Patchwerk. I'm well aware, as I said in the post you're responding to, that there are other factors that cause DW and Unholy to excel over short burst fights.

2) Yes, I said that-- I was talking about both specs, which are the ones on the dps scoreboards most people are going crazy over. There are also a few other DK specs that do dps in line with what most others are doing, and shouldn't be discounted.

I read Ren's post in the DW thread right after making my last post, and then the one later last night with similar numbers, as well as high numbers on other bosses. Seeing some consistent performance is definitely persuasive. I've been testing it out myself, but we haven't had any raids over the holiday break-- I'm looking forward to seeing what it can do.

My main point still stands-- you don't evaluate all specs' capabilities on a small sample of the highest numbers achieved, which is what some have been doing. If it wasn't clear, I was thinking of some posts that were suggesting the only spec worth bringing to a raid was DW, which is ridiculous. It benefits the raid to have DKs of different specs (especially with the EP issue), especially if you need certain buffs. I've been raiding as Blood up to this point to provide the raid with the 10% AP buff, and it's capable of dps in line with what other top dps classes are doing (i.e. 4-5k dps)-- just not the over-the-top totals seen from a select few specs.

Nastrodamus · 01/05/09, 6:09 PM

I remember seeing either on here or mmo champion that blizzard wants to make sure that 2H DPS for DK does not fall into the trap like Enh Shaman that the only viable high end way to raid would be to Dual Wield. Viable in this case meaning high end DPS only (we bring good buffs and stuff but if a RL wants a DPS monster you must DW scenario). I keep seeing information which shows some crazy DW numbers so the question is does this mean a nerf of some sort for DW or a buff of some sorts for 2H DPS or both?

Bloody_sorcerer · 01/05/09, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nastrodamus

I remember seeing either on here or mmo champion that blizzard wants to make sure that 2H DPS for DK does not fall into the trap like Enh Shaman that the only viable high end way to raid would be to Dual Wield. Viable in this case meaning high end DPS only (we bring good buffs and stuff but if a RL wants a DPS monster you must DW scenario). I keep seeing information which shows some crazy DW numbers so the question is does this mean a nerf of some sort for DW or a buff of some sorts for 2H DPS or both?

The only change I've heard that will negatively impact DW is some nerfing of gargoyle by an unknown amount ( World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Gargoyles not OP? ).

Lyssa · 01/05/09, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

I've yet to see a SS of a Recount report of 6k+ dps from Unholy, or even seen a WWS for Unholy that beats the best WWS's for DW.

I'm not sure if you're aware of the bug with pets in WWS. Occasionally it will, rather than ghoul and gargoyle and AotD, list AMZ and "consecrated ground" as your pet. If you for instance take a look at this week's Patchwerk WWS, where I did use both ghoul and AotD, yet it's not listing either. Recount was listing 600 more dps (due to pets) than WWS is. So if you don't find WWS of high dps unholys that may very well be the cause.

Similarly you can see AMZ listed on Sapphiron, yet not the ghoul, which I know I had out as I had to revive him. (As you can see it's listing AMZ spell absorbtion as damage done by me.)

crimsonsentinel · 01/05/09, 6:56 PM

DW has both ghoul and gargoyle, so it doesn't matter in that respect.

Sharkweek · 01/05/09, 8:28 PM

Has anyone had any trouble with reaping not proccing a death rune? I'm not talking about the death rune running out after not using it. I've noticed on several occasions when I've had both blood runes up and then use blood strike or blood boil twice only one of them activates as a death rune and the other one recharges as a blood rune. I don't know if this is a bug or not so that's why I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced it.

Bloody_sorcerer · 01/05/09, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sharkweek

Has anyone had any trouble with reaping not proccing a death rune? I'm not talking about the death rune running out after not using it. I've noticed on several occasions when I've had both blood runes up and then use blood strike or blood boil twice only one of them activates as a death rune and the other one recharges as a blood rune. I don't know if this is a bug or not so that's why I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced it.

Yes, I have had this occur, but not in any controlled fashion; my best guess is that it has to do with latency and lag spikes.

Zurai · 01/05/09, 10:07 PM

I've seen it but never been able to pin down what causes it.

mewse · 01/05/09, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sharkweek

Has anyone had any trouble with reaping not proccing a death rune? I'm not talking about the death rune running out after not using it. I've noticed on several occasions when I've had both blood runes up and then use blood strike or blood boil twice only one of them activates as a death rune and the other one recharges as a blood rune. I don't know if this is a bug or not so that's why I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced it.

Yes, I've seen this except while specced frost and the talent Blood of the North. Sitting at a target dummy, two blood strikes in a row will sometimes produce 1 death rune with the second blood rune staying blood. It's a very annoying bug but I've switched to a rotation that doesn't use two blood strikes in a row, and that seems to work around the problem.

I thought it might've been my unit frames but I disabled them and the default Blizz frame still shows the death rune not being produced.

everwatch · 01/05/09, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Leaflock

My main point still stands-- you don't evaluate all specs' capabilities on a small sample of the highest numbers achieved, which is what some have been doing.

Originally Posted by Lyssa

I'm not sure if you're aware... ...this week's Patchwerk WWS, where I did use both ghoul and AotD, yet it's not listing either.

Leaf the problem you have is that you are assuming that only a small sample is being observed, and only at a certain gear level. I run a Death Knight Blog, it's my sig. I've gotten multiple reports from readers in game, in comments, and in mail showing their improved turn outs with DW builds at varrying gear ranges. I've seen the evidence on WWS and on WMO. And then I've seen the same brought again in Recount SS's, and in various posts on both EJ forums and elsewhere. The sample size is not marginal or small in any degree. You however may have only had a limited viewing of this new aspect in WoW for DK's however. So, some may have been making assumptions based off of small sample sizes. You are correct in that. But speaking as someone who has been researching the hell out of this for my own blog posts about DW, I can tell you empatically that I am making no assumptions off of a limited sample size. Even going so far as to log in to other servers and ask other players about their DW experiences.

Lyssa, I am well aware of issues with WWS reporting pet damage for DK's. However first off in Patchwerk the occurances of glitches *now* are much more rare. Typically it reports Ghouls/Gargoyles every time now. It just leaves out AotD. Also my recount reference was specifically to recount only comparisons, not recount versus WWS/WMO. IMO, to be safe, I only compare like to like. WWS vs WWS, Recount vs Recount, and WMO vs WMO. Just in case a code or programming issue would cause otherwise unseen or missed discrepancies.