This could mean a lot of things or it could mean nothing. They could increase the damage done by other trees, they could decrease the damage done by SS, they could change the SS glyph, or they could add a DoT effect to SS. The possibilities are endless and there is a lot that his statement could mean but its Blizzards style to be vague about changes. I'm just pointing out that he didn't exactly say "We are toning down Scourge Strike."

as SS is right now, we did some half-assed group setup attempts on Razorscale with 20man and he bugged so he stood down the entire fight, I was doing 10kish SS crits (u from a max of 9.2ish on live) with a dps of 4532 - we had an unholy tank and I was juggling third disease with him. I think I lacked one or two buffers, but overall Im very curious about the DPS increase unholy got for no reason at all.

Remove SS from Outbreak, fixd.

Well he said "since TONED down". My guess he's referring to the outbreak nerf.

Still doesn't explain the 20% reduction we have in SS at the moment, if they think SS is doing too much damage, they can just nerf SS straight out, no need to shuffle that away so the community cant see it.
That's why I'm not sure if that is intended.

Is this a fact or a rumor? As pointed out it would explain the buffs to SS but it would also make sense of the fact that Blizzard is pushing armor penetration very hard with the new ulduar gear. Armor penetration would've been useless to a class that ignored apr with its primary attack.

It's a false assumption. Someone tested damage of SS on lvl 60 dummies and and theoretical and actual damage didn't add up. So the assumption was that it no longer ignores armor. This is not true. But SS has a inherent damage reduction of ~18% from an unknown source (which coincidently is about the armor reduction against a lvl 60 enemy, therefore the conclusion).

Read the last few pages of this thread and the whole 3.1 thread and you get more details (and math )

Ok hadn't been back on the ptr since i was seeing 9-10k scourge strike crits with trinket or procs up. Went back today it's now down to a much more fair level around 7/7.5k non procs (still i get these live with full raid buffs) so its in fact still really nice. However i wanted to test dc vs unholy blight managed to pick up the dc glyph and test without UB here is recount

Overall dps: 3050 no necrosis, gargoyle used at the very end it didnt increase the dps at all, did around 22k damage, seeing as my test with blood rune weapon was 55k or so without glyph or sunder of any kind, this is very low. When you take into account the possiblity of it dying to aoe it could really use some tweeks.

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: wowscrnshot031009123621.jpg Word of Warcraft Screenshot

As you can see dc is really high up there with melee on 18% of damage done, which i found interesting, im going to do some test with ub + dc, with dc glyph and post back. Will be looking out for the Ub glyph and swapping it with Dc one, cant get rid of scourge strike/ghoul imo.

That is why you read the note (above the rotation) which mentions how the rotation truly works

I just had a question or two. I'm having a problem getting my dps up to par with my fellow DKs in my guild. Here is the spec i have been using
Unholy Spec

I have been using the rotation of: PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-SS-SS-SS-DC

My question(s) is; is my rotation bad, or is my Spec bad, or do I just suck?

I have OK gear. Most my gear is epic, with 2 T7 items and im currently use deaths bite as my 2H. my trinkets, shoulders and wrist are blue/Superior and by what i have i am thinking i should be hitting a higher DPS.

Im just confused on why my dps is low.

Hopefully i can get some answers from everyone

Thanks

Your spec could use a few changes: loose the points from Desecration, fill up Necrosis, NotD and Unholy Aura. Keep UB always up, don't overcap rune power, take care of your ghoul and you should be fine.

I've been playing as Blood DPS for awhile, so forgive me for asking a potentially stupid question before I jump head-first into the wacky, wild world of Unholy DPS; that last few pages of this thread did not yield the answer I was looking for:

Is the attack rotation and glyph recommendation in the OP still fairly current?

Yes

Can someone please help me out with my spec.. I seem to be doing alright, but when I read through the posts in here and compare to other DK's I seem to be shy on the DPS. The World of Warcraft Armory and The World of Warcraft Armory

I also have more question and this is do I use the titansteel destroyer or Death's bite with my spec(17/0/54) I am looking for the most dps...

THANKS for you help and input!!!

Tamotsu

Please please check out the first post of this thread about the correct build, yours is really crap

Also Death's Bite is a far better the better weapon, i'm not sure why would even ask such a question unless you really don't have a clue about pretty much anything in the melee department

Imp unholy Pres > Blood pres for 2h unholy


Spec,
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9658


Glyphs:
SS BS
UB or DC

Rotation:
IT PS SS BS BS
SS SS SS

SS SS BS BS
SS SS SS
Repeat

178 RP gained = 4.45 DC/UB dumps
With the UB glyph you can gain .66 DC every 20 seconds.
With the DC glyph you increase DC dmg by 15% ~ .66 DC


90 sec window
Bloood = 9 rotations
Unholy = 10 rotations

Blood = 15% dmg
1.15 * 9 = 10.35

10.35 / 10 = 3.5% dmg increase


Blood pres > Imp unholy pres by 3.5%
IF the extra run speed does not help you.
&
IF you cannot fit an extra RP dump ability

However there is one factor that could swing it either way.
Imp unholy pres means more SS's = more disease uptime and more SS's in general

Disease time 21 seconds with 2 pts in epidemic.

SS SS SS
SS SS BS BS

Blood
5 SS / 21 seconds

76% chance to not have to reapply diseases

SS SS SS
SS SS BS BS
SS SS SS

Unholy
8 SS / 21 seconds

90% chance to not have to reapply diseases




Haste
Also haste is multiplicative so it increases the value of haste for the DK, although it will still likely be a low prior stat blizz will still stick it on our gear.

1.15 * 1.2 * (char haste) = Your total % haste

IE.. Lets say you got 10% haste.
Unholy pres
1.2 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 1.518 51.8% haste That turns your 3.4 sec weapon into a 3.4 / 1.518 = 2.23 speed weapon

Blood pres
1.2 * 1.1 = 1.32 32% haste, That turns your 3.4 sec weapon into 2.58 speed weapon

The actual difference in haste is not 15%, but 19.8%.
This of course means that you will actually do MORE white dmg in Unholy pres than Blood pres.
This also means 19.8% more FC procs...
19.8% faster ghoul, gargoyle, AoTD atk speed... (if you dont time heroism, if you get that in there then its even a larger bonus over blood)




Faster Rune Regeneration and SS glyph
Blood pres = 3.5% dmg increase

76% chance to refresh diseases in blood.

76 SS * 1.035 = 78.66 SS
24 IT * 1.035 = 24.84 IT
24 PS * 1.035 = 24.84 PS
40 BS * 1.035 = 41.4 BS

90% chance to refresh diseases in unholy
90 SS
10 IT
10 PS
40 BS


Difference
14.84 IT
14.84 PS
1.4 BS
v/s
11.34 SS

With 3 diseases
SS = 70% weapon dmg + 555 dmg
PS = 50% weapon dmg + 189 dmg
IT = 236 dmg + .1875 * AP

Dmg modifiers
Outbreak = 20% SS dmg 30% PS dmg
Ebon Plague = 13% SS dmg
RoR = 10% dmg
Bone shield = 2% dmg
2h mastery = 4% dmg
Vicious Stirke = 30% crit dmg

SS
70% * 1.2 * 1.13 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.04 = 110.8% wpn dmg + 615 dmg

45% SS crit
.45 * 2.3 * X + .55 * X = 1.585 X

175.6% wpn dmg + 974 dmg

PS
50% * 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.02 * 1.04 = 75.8% wpn dmg + 143 dmg

40% PS crit
.4 * 2.3 * Y + .6* Y = 1.52 Y

115.2% wpn dmg + 217 dmg

Boss armor = 30% dmg reduction
.7 ( 115.2% wpn + 217 dmg)

80.6% wpn dmg + 152 dmg


BS
55% 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.04 = 64.2% wpn dmg + 491 dmg

BS 34% crit
.36 * 2 * A + .64 * A = 1.36 A

87.3% wpn dmg + 668 dmg

Bose armor = 30% dmg redcution
.7 ( 87.3% wpn dmg + 668)

61.1% wpn dmg + 467dmg


For IT lets say you have 5000 atk power on avg
236 + 5000 * .1875 = 1174 dmg

1174 * 1.1 * 1.13 = 1459 dmg

35% IT crit
.35 * 2 * Z + .65 * Z = 1.35 Z

IT dmg = 1970 dmg


So,
14.84 PS = 1196.1% wpn dmg + 2257 dmg
14.84 IT = 29235 dmg
1.4 BS = 85.5% + 654 dmg
v/s
11.34 SS = 1991% wpn dmg + 11045 dmg
SoA = +4763 dmg

1282% wpn dmg + 16518 dmg
v/s
1991% wpn dmg

You would have to do roughly 250 weapon dmg in order for SS to lose this scenario,
Which is of course impossible.
This in turn means that imp unholy pres > blood pres


Conclusion:
Faster rune regeneration and SS glyph more than makes up for the 3.5% dmg loss via blood. but Imp unholy pres also yields:
Extra white dmg + BcB dmg
Pet dmg - AoTD, Garg, and Ghoul
Inc Run speed (Likely acquired by blood as well)
Extra GCDs, which yield extra RP dumps and a tighter rotation

Blood on the other hand has,
Necrosis ~ 10% dmg buff, However, this is more than compensated for the extra white dmg.
15% disease dmg, which I could add into the calcs later, but would be fairly insignificant. Just slightly increase the wpn dmg minimum

Your post is so long and overly spaced out it's almost impossible to read and pull out interesting points, but ultimately even with all that math, you still don't come to a good mathematical conclusion. Just throwing out a bunch of numbers and then saying "this math above more than makes up for the 3.5% damage loss" is conclusory and not helpful. I don't know if you missed a 0 but "You would have to do roughly 250 weapon dmg in order for SS to lose this scenario" doesn't even make sense to me given your math.

I must admit I skimmed, but a lot of this math reminds me of the same things we saw early into Wrath arguing for Unholy Presence, and they were universally wrong because they would miss something. For example, they'd say more Necrosis/BcB damage, as you have, without considering that Necrosis and BcB hit 15% harder in blood presence.

You also have false "pros" in your list. Increased run speed is irrelevant because you have that whether you're in blood presence or unholy presence once you pick up the talent. Extra GCDs are only relevant if you're GCD-capped, which is unlikely given that the DC glyph now gives bonus damage instead of less RP and we're (hopefully) going to move to t8 and lose the 4-piece 7.5 bonus.

The run speed pro was just added in case you didnt pick the talent up as blood. Although you should, so ill make an edit on that one.

IF
weapon dmg > 250
Then
Imp unholy pres > Blood pres

This is of course before you even consider the other pros of unholy pres.

True GCD's are not a huge issue for 2h unholy, but it does help tighten your rotation and could possible get extra RP dumps in. Not a huge pro,especially w/o the t7 bonuses, but a pro nonetheless.

As far as my conclusions I dont see as ive made any mistakes, but if you can find some let me know.

The same lag delay is applicable to 10 sec runes as much as 9 sec runes. Although it would slightly increase the BP - UP gap it would not be by any extreme amounts.

Necrosis would be a double dip and yield more dmg.

BcB is a little more complicated. Since haste is multiplicative we get roughly 20% more procs in unholy instead of 15% more dmg. That alone yields an dmg increase, But BcB is also normalized so more procs yields more dmg. Prinary reason DW DK's want fast weapons.

Again white dmg is back to the haste factor.
15 haste = 15% dmg
Except, its multiplicative of your other haste buffs so its more like 20~ish% with gear.
20% haste > 15% dmg


I concur, tests need to be done to confirm.
Unfortunately my toon is bugged on PTR... so I have to leave it up to some1 else.

I'm not sure if you understood what I said completely. Most notably the fact that Necrosis is for sure a dps decrease in UP. That you can test on live. Were you agreeing with me?

The same lag delay is absolutely applicable to 10 sec runes as much as 9 sec runes except the max delay is capped at 2.5seconds from 10 so you in essence seem to only get 1.5 seconds of time in exchange. (This still needs to be tested fully)

The effect of multiplicative haste is offset by the way melee attack speeds are calculated. If they were not multiplicative, haste would lose value the faster you get. I can understand your confusion at first.

Lets say you have a base damage of 500 damage and attack speed of 3.4 seconds.

Your dps would be 500 / 3.4 = 147.06dps
In BP your dps would be (500*1.15%)/3.4 = 169.12dps
In UP your dps would be the same 500/(3.4/1.15) or 500/2.96 = 169.2dps

Lets add 20% haste
In BP: 500*1.15/(3.4/1.2) or 575/ 2.83 = 202.94dps
In UP: 500/(3.4/(1.2*1.15) or 500/(3.4/1.38) or 500/2.46 = 202.94dps

As you can see even though the multiplicative product is higher than the sum of both hastes in the multiplier you are getting the exact same effect as a damage increase due to the division involved.

One quick question regarding your assumptions, where are you getting this 2.5 second lag delay? Are you rounding up to a tested maximum value or is this based on some other function?

Rounding up from tested values. I don't think we've ever seen anything 'official' on the matter. Last I saw the delay was between 2.5 and 2 seconds. You can test this yourself on a test dummy if you want. The first runes you use will be refreshed on 10 seconds exactly from use but any set of runes after the first while in combat will refresh at max 10 seconds but at minimum 8 or 7.5 seconds.

Hit a dummy with your frost runes then do the same thing again 12 seconds later instead of exactly when they refresh and you will see ~8 seconds on the refresh.

At work currently, so testing is not an option for awhile, however if the compensation (wait 12 secs and your refresh is 8) is still happening in 3.1, wouldn't that still be affected by imp UP?

I'm not attempting to be argumentative, I just am curious if the rune cd is going to be compensated for by the reduction made available on imp UP. If it does, then the next step would to be to see if the 2-2.5 second delay is universal. If the 12 / 8 delay you spoke of takes this into account then it could be marginally better to do imp UP, but if not then the result would be just as you have stated.

Your new AEP values are interesting. While I don't think I will need to rethink any gear choices, swapping cloak enchants from 22agi to 23haste is looking like a good idea with the 3.1 changes. Haste being slightly better than even crit rating seems a bit odd, but considering haste goes into the ghoul (and garg) and his white hits alone make up 10% of my DPS, I guess it makes sense.

I'm am slightly concerned with the Gargoyle and melee range anti-caster abilities. I noticed on Heigan that the Gargoyle ends up having ridiculously long cast times (not to mention getting owned by splashes/disease). I wonder if the Gargoyle would be able to do anything but melee swing on something like Maiden of Virtue in Karazhan.