It seems there will be though choices with talents in 3.1.
Questions:
1) We will need to most likely drop some talents in Blood - which goes first?
2) Epidemic or Morbidity or BCB?
3) Take UB or not?
4) Maybe drop some points from Dirge or even Impurity?
5) Take Imp. UP or not?
Basically what we need is some values of DPS increase of talents so we can drop "the weakest link". Let's take a look - I will use data from one of my Patchwerk kills.
Unholy:
* Morbidity - DC did 7.7% damage, removing this talent will result in 1% loss = 0.33% per point.
* Outbreak - ~1.41% per point.
* Necrosis - 4.8% of total damage = 0.95% per point.
* BCB - 2.2% = 0.73% per point.
* UB - 279 per tick so 5580 per 40 RP, DC 3555 per 40 RP (crit included) = 2025 damage lost over 20 sec = 100 dps loss = 1.78% loss on single target.
* Dirge - 25 RP per 20 sec = 2222 damage lost over 20 sec (based on DC damage) = 111 dps loss = 1.97% loss = 0.99% per point.
* Impurity - 26.7% damage affected = 3.48% damage loss = 0.7% per point.
* Desecration - 73.4% damage affected = 0.72% per point.
* Wandering Plague - 2.5% = 0.83% per point.
* Imp. UP = There was once a thread about this with nice math, anyone care to find it? We could assume 32 AP per point for sure as a start (boot enchant) but its surely worth more.
Blood:
* 2h Weapon Spec - 49% damage affected = 0.94% per point.
* Bladed Armor - Every point gives me ~80 AP with current gear. I am not sure how to count this but 1 DPS on weapon is equal to ~7 AP in spreadsheet so we could assume that 1 point is equal to 11+ DPS = ~0.2% per point.
* Dark Conviction - 61.2% damage affected = 0.58% per point.
List:
1) UB - 1.8% dps loss.
2) Outbreak - 1.41% per point.
3) Dirge - 1% per point.
5) Necrosis - 0.95% per point.
6) 2h Weapon Spec - 0.94% per point.
7) Wandering Plague - 0.83% per point.
8) BCB - 0.73% per point.
9) Dececration - 0.72% per point.
10) Impurity - 0.7% per point.
11) Dark Conviction - 0.58% per point.
12) Morbidity - 0.33% per point.
13) Bladed Armor - 0.2% per point.
Note that 3.0 values was used so keep in mind that Outbreak value will go up (SS and PS buffs) or Morbidity will also (but it won't make it better than Dark Conviction). Also all data included pet damage - Gargoyle, Ghoul and Army of the Dead - but I think it is better that way, more realistic.
Value of Epidemic and Imp. UP needs to be found still. Additionally I didn't count few talents like NotD or Ravenous Dead as they are simply needed for Ghoul Survival (and dead ghoul = 10-15% dps loss).
EDIT: Fixed value of Desecration (down from 1% to 0.72%).
I'm liking the figures, solves a lot of questions and answers a lot of my own. I have a question for you though. to make a spreadsheet or to properly record a session onto excel what do i need to do or may i ask for a link to this spreadsheet you are using?
Basically what we need is some values of DPS increase of talents so we can drop "the weakest link". Let's take a look - I will use data from one of my Patchwerk kills.
Good analysis, however my numbers from Patchwerk are somewhat different: 5400dps 3.41 Patchwerk
Namely all of these are bigger than your numbers:
DC 10,4% (12% in another log)
Necrosis 5,4%
BCB 2.9%
Basically I'm interested in how the values for Morbidity/UB/Dirge/Impurity change because of higher DC percentage (~11%).
edit: higher DC can be the result of 4xt7. Did you wear that in you parse? (Of course set bonus will in time be lost with ulduar gear),
I'm liking the figures, solves a lot of questions and answers a lot of my own. I have a question for you though. to make a spreadsheet or to properly record a session onto excel what do i need to do or may i ask for a link to this spreadsheet you are using?
I didn't used any. I just took my WMO from Patchwerk 2 weeks ago. As for weapon DPS I used number I had saved from some spreadsheet where 1 weapon DPS = 6.92 AP - I am not sure how accurate this is. Simply as nobody else did it I tried to put some values on talents. Overall the only problem left is Bladed Armor vs Dark Conviction.
Originally Posted by zagor
Basically I'm interested in how the values for Morbidity/UB/Dirge/Impurity change because of higher DC percentage (~11%).
edit: higher DC can be the result of 4xt7. Did you wear that in you parse? (Of course set bonus will in time be lost with ulduar gear),
Take a look:
11) Dark Conviction - 0.58% per point.
12) Morbidity - 0.33% per point.
DC would need to be almost double damage for Morbidity > Dark Conviction or any other talent. Also yes I used 4 piece of T7 - good point - without it Morbidity value will go down even further.
Originally Posted by methods
With Naxx gear you are looking at 1 Weapon DPS equaling ~4.25DPS which would quadruple your estimated dps to about ~0.85% per point. Which agrees closely with some of my calculations. Bladed armor is still a near must have as far as I can tell.
The value of DND's shorter cooldown I think will come down to preference. Dark conviction does beat Morbidity in a straight up Single target dps fight. No denial there. The problem is that it's really not by much.
Actually I have no idea if my current number on Bladed Armor is correct, same as I have no idea what number for Imp. UP is (32 AP + 15% movement speed = ?).
As for DnD my tests on target dummies showed that I did higher AoE damage without using it due to new BB. Obviously it will be still nice to throw it while running to pack but then 30 sec is rather good enough.
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
The last 2 points in Bladed Armor are then also up for grab in case you decide you want Ghoul Frenzy or Corpse Explosion or something for whatever reason.
Why would you want to take CE? It is so situational, low damage, don't crit - it is crap overall. As for GF it would be nice if it would not use Unholy rune - for now it is pretty waste of talent point.
If your glyph set is Ghoul, Scourge Strike, and Dark Death, you can safely remove the point in Unholy Blight. Once you get the new gear, it doesn't take long for Death Coil to exceed Unholy Blight in damage. At 7000 AP, I believe it takes 27% critical chance for Death Coil to overtake Unholy Blight. Morbidity shoots up in value as Desecration adds 5% damage and the Glyph adds 15%. The set bonus also adds damage to Death Coil.
Assuming it deals 12% of your DPS, 15% of that is 1.8. Divided by 3, you get 0.6. Which means if you use Death N Decay as part of your AoE package, it's worth it.
Does the ghoul get critical chance from it's owner? I've seen no mention of this so far in my reading. I know Ghouls scale with Strength and Haste. If someone has proven this, this should be added to the pet thread for Ghoul scaling.
Dark Conviction should be the talent to be removed. It's placement and DPS value make it the perfect candidate for removal in my opinion.
Last edited by Orlgin : 03/14/09 at 7:24 AM.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Why would you want to take CE? It is so situational, low damage, don't crit - it is crap overall. As for GF it would be nice if it would not use Unholy rune - for now it is pretty waste of talent point.
Nah i know they are currently a waste mostly. Was more stating that if Bladed Armor indeed provides as little total dps as you initially claimed than those 2 points would be the the first you'd take in favor of something else.
I still get tempted to spec into such talents, if only for the fun factor.
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However as Methods pointed out, the value of Bladed Armor might actually be higher. In which case the situation changes a bit.
If your glyph set is Ghoul, Scourge Strike, and Dark Death, you can safely remove the point in Unholy Blight.
No, you remove UB you loose 100 dps on single target - not to even mention any aoe that we already saw in many fights in Ulduar. I skipped UB initially too - until I did the math.
Originally Posted by Orlgin
Once you get the new gear, it doesn't take long for Death Coil to exceed Unholy Blight in damage. At 7000 AP, I believe it takes 27% critical chance for Death Coil to overtake Unholy Blight.
Now I am not sure how much AP I had but spell crit was at 29%+ and still UB won by a large margin - 5580 avg. damage per UB cast, 3355 avg. DC damage and that includes crits. If I would switch 3x UB to 3x DC I would loose over 6000 damage per minute.
Originally Posted by Orlgin
Morbidity shoots up in value as Desecration adds 5% damage and the Glyph adds 15%. The set bonus also adds damage to Death Coil.
Desecration works for everything. Morbidity is not and option as there are better talents in both Unholy and Blood with 3.1.
Originally Posted by Orlgin
Does the ghoul get critical chance from it's owner?
Ghoul (and Army if I remember) scales only with STR, haste and hit.
Desecration doesn't raise the Ghoul's damage which means everything else goes up in value. This was mentioned earlier but apparently you didn't read that part. Think about it: if ghoul does the same amount of damage and all the other things go up by 5-6%, won't they have a higher number compared to Ghoul?
As for math, let's check it out with all bonuses except Desecration (which we haven't decided to take yet)
Unholy Blight Rank 4: 48 per tick. 20 ticks. AP coefficient: 0.013
Death Coil Rank 5: 443 damage. Can crit for double damage. AP Coefficient: 0.15
OK, let's apply the talents and bonuses first:
Unholy Blight gets a 10% bonus from Rage of Rivendare. 0.013 x 1.1 = 0.0143
Unholy Blight gets a 15% bonus from Blood Presence. 0.0143 x 1.15 = 0.0164
Unholy Blight gets a 25% AP bonus from Impurity: 0.0164 x 1.25 = 0.0205
Unholy Blight gets a 13% bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer: 0.0205 x 1.13 = 0.0231
Base damage: 48 * 20 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 1372.27
AP bonus: 7000 x 0.0231 = 161.7 x 20 = 3234
Total damage: 4606.27
Death Coil gets a 10% bonus from Rage of Rivendare: 0.15 x 1.1 = 0.165
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Blood Presence: 0.165 x 1.15 = 0.189
Death Coil gets a 25% AP bonus from Impurity: 0.236
Death Coil gets a 13% bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer: 0.266
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Morbidity: 0.3059
Death Coil gets a 15% bonus from Glyph of Dark Death: 0.351
Base damage is 443 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 837 damage
AP Bonus: 7000 x 0.351 = 2457
Total damage : 3294
4606/3294 = 1.398
So with all bonuses, it jumps to 39.8% critical needed. There are, of course, rounding errors but that's in the ballpark. That doesn't include the metagem that give 3% critical damage bonus. Dividing by 1.03, you get 1.357.
so 35.7% spell critical raid buffed puts you over the top with all bonuses.
The reason you see higher numbers now is this: The Base damage for Unholy Blight is actually 960. It's AP coefficient is actually 0.26. That's accounting for all the ticks. Death Coil starts at 443 and 0.15 coefficient. But it gets a 203% damage bonus for criticals and has more bonuses that effect it. So eventually you hit a point where Death Coil is superior. Make sense?
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
But last I heard Unholy Blight actually got the Crypt Fever modifier of 30% extra disease damage. The reason being Unholy Blight was a disease in beta, they just removed the disease tag, but I'm pretty sure it kept the modifier so it stayed balanced.
Which would make
base damage: 1783.95
Ap bonus: 4227.60
Total damage: 6011.55
6011 / 3294 = 1.825
Dividing by 1.03 that is 1.772
77.2% crit.
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You could verify this with some basic tests. But unless they changed the mechanic in 3.0.8 or 3.0.9 this is how it works.
The only way DC is gonna outclass Unholy Blight, is if you have very low AP numbers and insane high crit.
For example on a fight like Loatheb death coil might actually be better than UB, due to the spore buff.
That means that for the duration of your diseases ( 21 seconds) you have 2 whole cycles + 3 GCD (19 / 20 / 21 second marks).
In those 3 free GCD you could theoretically with 0 ms fit 3 SS's
I think you have a point when you look at the bigger picture.
But i can kind of see how morb was thinking, and i dont see it as a bad way of thinking.
Every time your SS refreshes diseases you should be able to fit in 3 more SS's before the 21 pass than with blood presence.
However that requires (near) perfect latency, and requires you to fire the SS's as soon as the runes come up. Which in practice is probably very unrealistic.
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If Unholy Presence turns out to be the best presence, i'd personally be very happy. Because i personally prefer the feel of a 1 sec GCD rotation over a 1.5 second.
It gives a bit more leeway, allows for a mistake and for some mobility.
----
@Morb
The way you were thinking with haste and how it stacks multiplicatively is right. But you forget that if you add 20% base haste to stack multiplicatively, that the 15% damage also gets multiplied with that. Because you are doing 20% more attacks that do 15% more damage
So unfortunately that argument doesn't hold up.
I would wish with passion that it turns out that IUP + UP becomes the best presence combination, but I have a lot of doubt that that will actually happen.
I dont think an Avg would be a good means to measure it by because you would dump your RP at the end of the cycle.
So the last few seconds of the third cycle arent applicable.
8 SS might have been a bit much though, 7 would prob have been a more fair number given lag and rotation differences.
Desecration doesn't raise the Ghoul's damage which means everything else goes up in value. This was mentioned earlier but apparently you didn't read that part.
Actually I did at bottom of post you can see: EDIT: Fixed value of Desecration (down from 1% to 0.72%).
Originally Posted by Orlgin
Unholy Blight (...)
Base damage: 48 * 20 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 1372.27
AP bonus: 7000 x 0.0231 = 161.7 x 20 = 3234
Total damage: 4606.27
Check WMO, my UB already did 5580 damage and I am sure I do not have avg. 8000+ AP
Foxx2405 is right, I saved post with DK spell scaling from some time ago and UB looks like this:
I redid my old calcs on BP and Imp UP and these are my results.
I used 7 SS's within a 21 second window for IUP this time instead of 8. Originally I used 8 to try to get a feel for best case scenario, but it was not a good number for an avg.
Anyways if you use the new 7 SS's / 21 seconds for IUP
IUP > BP
IF
Weapon dmg > ~400
Although this is not considering
Inc Pet dmg - AoTD, Garg, and Ghou
15+% FC procs
Inc Run speed(of course blood likely takes run speed as well)
Extra GCDs (Possibly more RP dumps)
On the other hand,
15% disease dmg
15% dmg necrosis
White dmg & BcB dmg are going to be equal.
So I still think that IUP has quite a bit of potential. Whether its better than blood will need to be tested.
* Bladed Armor - Every point gives me ~80 AP with current gear. I am not sure how to count this but 1 DPS on weapon is equal to ~7 AP in spreadsheet so we could assume that 1 point is equal to 11+ DPS = ~0.2% per point.
* Dark Conviction - 61.2% damage affected = 0.58% per point.
Your BA is under- while your DC is overrated.
Bladed Armor:
The spreadsheet saying the benefit of 7 AP equals the benefit of 1 weapon DPS doesn't say anything about how much actual DPS either 7 AP or 1 weapon DPS is worth. (Notice: weapon DPS is not your actual DPS, you aren't doing as much DPS as your character screen says either, are you?)
Assuming 7000 average AP in a raid setting 80 AP will be a 1.14% increase to your AP contribution to your abilities, including the base damage this will probably result in an increase of ~0.9% of IT/FF/BP/UB/Gargoyle damage.
For autoattacks it'll be an increase of ~0.8% ( (80/14)/(200+(7000/14))=0.00816 ).
For SS/PS/BS it'll probably be an increase of ~0.6% due to their high base damage.
Taking a weighting of 25% autohits/35% PS/SS/BS/10% Ghoul/30% rest you're looking at approximately 0.68% total damage per point spent, this is probably even less than its actual worth because I took very high estimates for base damage contribution of abilities.
Edit: Forgot that I included the 10% AP buff in the 7000 AP estimate but not in the talent contribution, it's going to be closer to 88 AP per talent point and at least 0.75% more damage per talent point then.
Dark Conviction:
How do you come up with this number? Assuming 40% crit without it (that's what I have raidbuffed/-debuffed) you're going to do 0.744% more damage per 1% crit including 3% crit damage meta.
PS/SS have 46% crit and a 236.9% modifier then, so you're looking at an increase of 0.84% per point spent.
Assuming a contribution of 50% of SS/PS and the rest, you're looking at an increase of averagely 0.79% per point. With 61.2% damage affected this results in 0.48% more damage per point spent.
So you'll want to put your points from DC into Bladed Armor.
Edit: Just noticed the point about BA has already been mentioned with an even higher estimation, mine should be quite accurate for the assumed gear though.
As a sanity check on Bladed Armor, let's assume each point of BA is worth 80 AP (see above for discussion on why this is a reasonable figure), and assume you do 5000 DPS because it's about right and it's a nice round number. If 1 point in BA is an 0.2% DPS increase, then each point of BA gives you 10 DPS.
I'm not up on current numbers, but throughout TBC, melee classes got about 1 DPS per 2-3 AP. Nothing's happened to make scaling incredibly worse since then so it's still a good ballpark figure. If we were getting 0.2% DPS from Bladed Armor, we'd be getting 1 DPS per 8 AP.
AP (or strength, anyway) is the stat we gem for, and it's massively better than every other non-capped stat. If our AP scaling was 1/3 to 1/4 what it is for other classes, DK DPS would be so absolutely nonviable that none of this discussion would be happening.
EDIT: Sanity check #2. The stat weights in the OP has 1 AP worth about 1 crit rating. These numbers are outdated but they're at least close. By those weights 80 AP is worth about 80 crit rating, or 1.75% crit. Obviously 1.75% crit is a lot more than an 0.2% DPS increase.
So I still think that IUP has quite a bit of potential. Whether its better than blood will need to be tested.
I've seen UP's movement speed bonus attributed towards a DPS increase on movement based fights but was curious as to how much the reduced GCD would affect such fights?
If the lower GCD equates to a DPS boost on the initial use of runes then surely given a period of non rune usage (or anything that causes your runes to go beyond the 2sec grace period) then this bonus can essentially be repeated.
Obviously it is complicated to calculate due to factors like if you are able to icy touch while closing a gap. My question is wether or not the bonus is enough to warrant even considering as a perk of UP?
- Ravenous Dead and NotD are must have from Ghoul survivability point (not to mention AotD and 3% str) amount of AoE will be high in Ulduar it seems.
- Imp. UP is rather must have even if it will cost us 1-2% dps on stationary fights (if there will be any left on hard modes even).
- Morbidity: other talents should be better than it. Some may argue about DnD cooldown but I would call it situational.
- Ravenous Dead and NotD are must have from Ghoul survivability point (not to mention AotD and 3% str) amount of AoE will be high in Ulduar it seems.
- Imp. UP is rather must have even if it will cost us 1-2% dps on stationary fights (if there will be any left on hard modes even).
- Morbidity: other talents should be better than it. Some may argue about DnD cooldown but I would call it situational.
I think we can conclude that the talent build you linked there is probably the most solid spec from a pure dps point of view.
I agree that Imp UP is an undervalued talent by most people, even without the raid benefit its still pretty huge.
The only thing I personally might change are the 3 points between BCB and Morbidity. (Assuming BCB is the 2nd weakest talent in unholy after morbidity).
From a pure dps PoV i'm going to agree with you that point for point BCB is better, but from a personal experience PoV I prefer the shorter DnD.
The question is how much the dps differs. If BCB would have been 1-2% more dps, I would probably swing towards BCB. But if the dps difference on a single target nuke fight is that low, i'm tempted to go for the shorter DnD which is useful in nearly any fight involving AoE + all trash fights.
Trash doesnt account for E-peen values, but it does matter in the speed of which you can clear an instance.
For me personally BCB is 2% of my total dps, on nearly all my WWS fights.
Death coil accounts for around 8% of my total dps (i suck at dumping RP sometimes though). 15% of that is 1.2% dps increase.
That means the difference is 0.8% dps (around 50 dps in ulduar i guess), which for me is a ground to consider the actual benefit of a 15 second Death and Decay.
All trash, about 25% of the bosses (wild guess), i even (ab)use it to generate 40 Rp before going into a fight so i can kick off with Unholy Blight up right at the start, also more dps on ranged fights where BCB doesn't do anything but deathcoil can.
Not saying its directly better, but its given me enough ground to doubt speccing into it.
I would think that Glyph of Disease might prove more beneficial to overall dps then Glyph of Death's Embrace. My reasoning is that it could potentially save multiple GCDs on any encounter with muiltiple targets or adds. This should go without saying but please don't assume I'm from the school of thought that dictates one should skip IT + PS and use Pestilence on a single target, I'm simply stating that if raid healing and pet micromanagement are enough to maintain ghoul survivability, there would be more to gain from Glyph of Disease.
The choice between Morbidity and BCB will come down to Ulduar's boss composition and how beneficial AOE will be on the majority of boss fights or more particularly, hard mode fights i.e 3D Sartharion.
I would think that Glyph of Disease might prove more beneficial to overall dps then Glyph of Death's Embrace. My reasoning is that it could potentially save multiple GCDs on any encounter with muiltiple targets or adds. This should go without saying but please don't assume I'm from the school of thought that dictates one should skip IT + PS and use Pestilence on a single target, I'm simply stating that if raid healing and pet micromanagement are enough to maintain ghoul survivability, there would be more to gain from Glyph of Disease.
The choice between Morbidity and BCB will come down to Ulduar's boss composition and how beneficial AOE will be on the majority of boss fights or more particularly, hard mode fights i.e 3D Sartharion.
This is a lot of confused posters. Let me clarify for you.
He saw on the mmo-champion calculator that Glyph of Disease is listed as a Minor. This is a mistake on MMO-Champ's system. Honest mistake anyone could make.
No one is saying anything about Dark Death.
Let's move on,
Ghoul frenzy would add around 80-100 dps to your ghoul for 15 seconds. That averaged per 2 minutes is worth about 11.25 dps or 0.21% Dps for 1 point. Absolutely horrid unless it saves you 30 seconds of ghoul downtime.
I wonder if getting the ghoul frenzy for saving it's life would be worth the 1 point we'd be effectively wasting in lackluster talents now that we have a minimum of 30 seconds cooldown between summons. Using BT for Bone Shield wouldn't get in the way now that it's a 2 min cooldown anyway. BT for Ghoul frenzy at the expense of 1 point in BCB or Morb seems ok to me. The talent could use a bit more love though.
I wonder if getting the ghoul frenzy for saving it's life would be worth the 1 point we'd be effectively wasting in lackluster talents now that we have a minimum of 30 seconds cooldown between summons. Using BT for Bone Shield wouldn't get in the way now that it's a 2 min cooldown anyway. BT for Ghoul frenzy at the expense of 1 point in BCB or Morb seems ok to me. The talent could use a bit more love though.
Just a thought.
Even for that, it doesn't seem worth it. In the situations I'm currently seeing that gets my ghoul killed, a 30% heal over 15 seconds won't save him - it's not gradual, low-magnitude damage that does him in, it's spike damage. If the frenzy gave him a PW:S-like shield that would be more useful (and a new and interesting mechanic, instead of another heal-over-time-for-your-pet) and lend itself to some nice predictive strategy.
Even then I'd dislike it for the rune cost - sacrificing part of a rotation or having to hold BT in reserve for it just doesn't sit right with me - but it'd be a step in the right direction.
03/14/09, 5:02 AM
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