I wonder if the blue sigil is better then.

Does base damage make a difference, compared to what we get added now ?
The name suggest that it gets added before all modifiers, but i always current ones were too.

If the blue sigil is better I expect them to nerf it.

Not sure why this says Rank 5, there are only currently 4 ranks of SS on the PTR and the live servers...Blizzard typo I suppose.

I would also expect arthritic to get nerfed.

Just made the current changes to my spreadsheets: My predictions/findings
-Dark rider is still more dps for blood than awareness but not better than the new DC sigil
Edit: Dark rider values are wrong but the new DC sigil is better than Awareness for Blood
-The new Sigil of awareness is on par with the new Deathcoil/FS sigil for unholy
-9/10/52 is competitive but 12/0/59 is still ahead by a couple percent
-51/1/19 is going to overthrow any other spec currently if the ghoul can live.

Has anyone noticed a change in the gargoyle coefficient? If no changes have been made, a well timed, triple proc gargoyle should put unholy above or on par with a living ghoul 51/1/19.

Still no frost numbers sorry.

Was just about to ask if anyone had tested the possibility of a Black Ice build, but it seems Methods already did.

Just to toss up in the group, black ice scales better than Bladed Armor though.
Not in the position to predict stuff, but there is of course a possibility that some kind of Black Ice build will pull ahead (0/10/61 // 9/10/52 // 7/10/54 ).
Since armor practically doesnt increase, so the AP bonus is somewhat static, Butchery is (near) useless, Subversion is nice but the threat reduction is far from needed, and the crit is only on BS. 4% +dmg on strikes is nice though.

Black Ice affects a lot of damage (diseases / SS / deathcoil / necrosis (?) )

I doubt x/10/x build is gonna outclass a x/0/x build already, but it should somewhere in the future with gear upgrades.

I can agree with this. Armor increases will continue to be nearly invisible and so you are right that bladed armor's value is pretty much static. The problem is that Imp-IT and RPM are basically a 0.28% gain. If my sheets are accounting for all possible multipliers Black Ice is currently worth about 5.8%. BA is currently worth 4.1%, 2H spec is worth 1.6% and subversion is equal to 0.27% (not counting possible threat advantage).

Not to mention the extra points taken from Unholy.

The sacrifice is too costly when the only options (after taking out morbidity/bcb/IUP) are taking out of really GOOD unholy talents (Like WP and now Dese which are both about 4% total each).

Frost has very little to offer Unholy beyond 10 points so that really cant be argued for either. IT PvP spam has been specifically targeted this patch too with the nerf to initial IT talents and the change to PES instead of BB on reaping but I digress.

4/5 BA + 5/5 BI = ~9.08%
take out say WP and you are back down to ~5%
Take out morbidity(for example) and you are down to ~3.7%

5/5BA + 2h spec = ~5.7% and no loss in Unholy talents.

You are right that BA will lose power over the next few raid tiers but I doubt it would equal a 2% gap.

DW may be a different story though.

My sheet shows Awareness as the best sigil for Blood, Dark Rider only adds 45 per strike. The new DPS sigil isn't worth it for DC for any 2h spec.
Blood is indeed too strong at the moment, even without the ghoul. Very good damage and the best survivability, you can't neclect that in an all new and hard instance. Only the unholy-DR-get-used-first bug hold me back a little.
Frost is ok and gets a nice sigil, Unholy is somewhere behind. Both have faster and disease independent aoe.

What kind of rotation are you using? Are you adding the DC damage to the base of the spell or after the modifiers? In any rotation I've used for Blood you only use DS twice per 20 seconds. You have Sudden doom procs to account for as well as the standard DCs available through RP generation. There is no way 315 base * Modifiers * 2 can equal to 380* modifiers * ~4 with sudden doom procs.

I didn't see a change to Dark rider (I assume it's no longer 90 and now 45?)
Edit: Nevermind I missed the post in the Blood thread. Makes sense. Too bad blizzard dosn't let people know these things.


Edit: I just tried 0/10/61 and i'm impressed. It's about 1% ahead of the others assuming movement is low.

I dont think anything can beat unholy, with the amazing 20% reduction to all damage, from bone shield, in survivability terms. Also with a 1 minute old-style gargoyle, I doubt it will fall behind blood much, dps-wise.

Slightly offtopic: Methods, is your spreadsheet available to the "public"?

Once changes calm down I can clean up the numbers and release it finally. I look forward to the public scrutiny that will ensue.

The reason I haven't released a Beta version is because with such a quickly changing class, I can adjust numbers quickly but messily. They provide very accurate numbers when in a controlled environment but would be far too easy to 'break' at the moment. Pretty sure any feedback I did get at this point would be either something I already know or something I don't have the time to implement.

It'll be released soon I hope (on the spreadsheet thread).

Added directly to the base damage. Standard 2xDS rotation. 2/5 T8. I only used 1/3 Morbidity as I see now, but that doesn't make the sigil better than Awareness. DC has never been worth pushing by any spec.


0/10/61 has slightly more DPS than my current 3.1 spec, 14/0/57. I guess the aoe damage is higher, so nice find .

Regarding that 10/61 build, it looks to be a no-brainer to just lose the two points in epidemic and toss them into butchery, making it a 2/10/59. You could even use the glyph of disease, one blood rune -> refresh both diseases AND turn into a death rune (albeit with no damage done) looks very good to me.

Ok here is my math:

Incoming Wall...

Assumptions:
Avg Weapon damage = 2626.79
MCrit = 43.1%
SCrit = 41.9%
MDodge+miss = 3.3% or 96.7% Hit
Spell Hit = 100%
AP Average (after procs etc.)= 7186ap

DS damage calculation:
2 DeathStrikes per 20 seconds

(WPN*.75+222+(sigil 315))*(1+(mCrit +0.6(ImpDS))*modifier(1.45%)*1.03(meta))*1.1(BG)*1.3(Imp DS)*1.09(BV)*1.15(BP)*1.25%(DS Glyph assuming perfect RP)*Armor*Hitchance

(2626.79*.75+222+315)*(1+(49.1%)*1.45*1.03)*1.1*1.3*1.09*1.15*1.25*.72*.967

DS = 6835.6 avg expected damage
DS damage per rotation = 13671.2
DS damage without awareness = 11953.49

Total difference of 1717.697

DC damage calculation:
3 DC per rotation + (6 HS's*15% chance to proc a DC) = 3.9 DC's per rotation

(APcoef*avgAP+Base(443+380sigil))*(1+(sCrit+5%2pT8)*1.03(meta))*1.1(BG)*1.15(DCglyph) *1.15(Morb)*1.13(EP)*1.15(BP)*Hitchance(100%)*.94(partial resists)

(0.15*7186+443+380)*(1+(46.86%)*1.03)*1.1*1.15*1.15*1.13*1.15*100%*.94

DC = 5008.32 avg damage
DC * 3.9 per 20 seconds = 19532.448
DC without Sigil = 15627.83

Difference of 3904.646

DPS Gain for Awareness = 85.88
DPS Gain for DC sigil = 195.23

Let me know if you see any mistakes.


Edit: This has been reposted in the 3.1 Changes thread in an attempt to stay on topic. Please reply there if you can.

Doing no damage to gain a GCD to do what with? Keep in mind we're generating less RP once we get T8, so you're not going to be swimming in the stuff for DC spam.

Edit: Am I lost? I see a bunch of blood dps theory craft mixed in with unholy stuff. Seems confusing and defeats the purpose of having different threads for the different specs.

I am finding it very interesting that a 0/10/61 build is now possible. I also agree that the unholy tree is looking a lot like ret... too much bloat. It will be interesting to see just how good this build is come 3.1 live. I have been tempted to go blood with all the talk of how good it is now, but I feel that the only thing that will pull me from unholy is if somehow unholy falls behind by a good margin. I am way too use to the play style.

Ret isn't bloated (in 3.1), in fact Ret are unhappy because there are so many free points. Be happy you have lots of good dps talents!

I am of the opinion that you should play what you like, especially when the options are 200 dps or less apart. The extra disease issue should have been fixed and AoE applying 13% magic damage is really good in Ulduar.

I have another question as well- currently the EP situation stinks, but it's not really worth spec'ing out of Unholy for if you like the playstyle. Pretty negligible loss as it is. Post 3.1 though if it isn't resolved, what is that going to be looking like? With the more "scaling" mechanics in place, is this going to be biting us significantly harder than currently on live?

Fresh from some time of Freya wiping on PTR, tried out the 2/10/59 specc. I have to say it is at the very least compettive. Even discounting the extremely aoe friendly entire zone that is the conservatory of life, I was consistently top 3 even on single target dps, very close to blood 51/0/20 dk and the rogues.

That's good to hear. Could you give the exact talent spec, please? I'm curious about certain details.

Was running a http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9704

Tonight we have Mimiron again to test, almost no aoe, (until phase 3 at least) during which I plan to run this specc, and the more classic blood/unholy, and will switch them betwen tries as a rough comparison.

Running both speccs on Kahories sim, im getting blood/uh to be ahead by around 350 dps. It is however a very "young" tool, no idea how reliable it is at such an early stage.

How do you experience the whole Butchery vs Epidemic by the way ?

Butchery for me comes out on about 40 dps, which isn't bad at all.
Average DC hits for 3000 with about 40% crit rate thats 4200 damage average per DC
Butchery generates 8 RP per 20 seconds, which is 1/5th of a deathcoil per 20 seconds.
840 damage per 20 seconds or 42 dps.
(Using my last PW kill as measuring point: Wow Web Stats)

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Epidemic contrary to what it seems at first sight is a dps increase as well however.
The full extent of its dps increase is hard to calculate, but im talking about the principle of 21 seconds allowing about 2 more scourge strikes to be used to increase the chance of a glyph proc.

Currently we do 5 SS per 18 seconds (on live with 2/2 epidemic).
( 1 - 0.75^5 ) = .76
So a 76% chance to refresh diseases inside a 18 second window means we refresh diseases about once per 4 rotations (80 seconds).
This is probably way off because things totally change when you refresh diseases early etc etc, but globally that doesn't seem to be too far off with my own experiences.

With a 15 second window (PTR // 0/2 epidemic) that turns into 68%, or a 1/3 chance which means once every 3 rotations (60 seconds)
With a 21 second window (PTR // 2/2 epidemic) that turns (assuming you can get off 6 SSs) 82% or a 1/5-1/6 chance meaning once every 2 minutes or so.

Of course this is very blunt and probably way off, but im just saying that those extra seconds allow 1-2 more SS's inside the disease timer increasing the chance to refresh them quite dramatically.

Just wondering if anyone can link the math they're using to determine the worth of Dark Conviction vs, say, Desecration or BCB. At face value it seems like 5% crit is too good to pass up.

If it's a contest between 5% crit and 5% overall damage, 5% overall damage wins every time.