I am not sure if what you are saying above is that you lack the raid wide buff of haste without an Enhancement Shaman or a Frost DK. If this is true then with the build you linked you still lack it because you do not have Improved Icy Talons. Not to mention the fact that I don't think the self haste buff is better than a full IUP, NotD and Epidemic.

@Sythral

That was indeed my point. 20% self haste buff vs. full IUP, NotD and Epidemic (where you can still spend 3 points amongst).

The 20% haste scale nicely with Necrosis, which is getting a boost via Black Ice...so MAYBE (<- !!) this might be an alternative thougt for the people who are running only the smaller raids and lacking the haste buff via Enhancer/Frost DK.

Removed.

Due to the nature of the SS Glyph it is hard to model the actual worth of increased disease time. I believe after implementing a rotation cushion much like the 2.5 second rune cushion we see on live that my spreadsheets can finally model the worth of talents based on using the SS glyph.

That being said, I believe my simulations are behaving so I'm going to give some approximate worth to a few talents in question.

Unholy: Assuming 0/10/61 for simplicity sake.

Epidemic: After many tests and trying different rule sets it seems that epidemic is worth an average of about 0.7% for the first point spent and .5% for the second. This is assuming diseases are manually refreshed anywhere near/after 3 seconds left on the last pair of UF runes.

Morbidity: Outside of the aoe value is actually a very low priority talent (~0.8% or 0.27% per point). If it was 1 point it would make more sense when considering just DC damage. The increase in AoE potential simply should not be ignored. It means about double the DnD Damage in any fight where you can use 2 back to back.

Virulence: For PvE Virulence is absolute 'balls'. It's not even as valuable as Morbidity ignoring DnD. Too bad there is nothing else.

BCB: This one is a tricky one due to the need for 100% contact to be accurate. If we could assume 100% contact then BCB is actually a very good talent assuming you have good gear. It's currently worth about ~3.4% or 1.13% per point. That's very decent. If we assume the same 85% uptime that we assumed for Desecration you are looking at 0.96% per point.

Impurity: Impurity is worth approximately 4.2% or .84% with T8 and some known Ulduar gear.

Desecration: is worth nearly the same as Impurity when considering 100% uptime. With say 85% uptime you would be looking at 3.6% or .71% per point.

Dirge: Interestingly enough and perhaps fairly obvious dirge = a fair amount of DPS. It packs about 1.2% per point. That means no passing this one. Ever.

Unholy Blight: Here's another interesting one. VS a fully glyphed and talented DC you are looking at only a 1.49% DPS increase when using UB every 20 seconds give or take. Granted that is a good value for 1 point it is suprising to see an activated ability worth so little. Obviously, it's value skyrockets with AoE though.

Pretty much everything else that seems obvious is just that. Each one of these is worth anywhere from 4% to 7.5% each: Outbreak, VicStr, EP, CF, WP, RoR.

All ghoul talents are up for debate I'm sure at some point but since my values for them are based on uptime its hard to spit out useful numbers. Needless to say though, they are worth taking (at least 1xNOTD,Master,3xRavenous)


Frost: 0/10/61

RPM: Runic is worth ~.5% due to gaining flexibility. I wouldn't however go out of my way to put 1 or 2 in frost if I was 'Jonesing'(spelling?) for Blade Armor.

Imp IT: Bad. ~0.2% for 2 points. This COULD change with some version of IT spam but I doubt it with the solid buffs to SS and the absolute focus on that.

Black Ice: Good f$&@ing talent. It's a solid, scaling, ~5.2% for 5/5. This is only rivaled by RoR (so no point stealing!). The one and only flaw of Black Ice is it's retarded cousins that come with him (RPM+ImpIT =/= good value).

Blood: Assuming points in BCB instead of Morbidity (12/0/59)

Butchery: Here is an example of an over-rated but essential talent. It's clocked at ~0.6% for 2 points. No other choices though.

Subversion: Not considering threat this talent is also fairly bad for Unholy. It should be worth roughly 0.27% for all 3 points. Yuck right? Threat on AoE is the one thing that makes me think this talent doesn't need a buff.

Bladed armor: Assuming 'Voldrethar, Darkblade of Oblivion' and a spattering of T8+ other Naxx 25/Ulduar epics, Bladed armor has stayed a very strong candidate for now. I've found it to be worth ~3.94%. It's no Black Ice but it does come with better family.

Imp 2H: What pushes 12/0/59 over the top is this talent. It's a very decent increase of ~ 1.8% for 2 points. This combined with BA and even Butchery and Subversion gives just enough to pull ahead of 0/10/61.


To comment on 2/10/59 I don't think the trade for less or more RP in exchange for Morbidity is even worth stressing. Do either one. If you want to have DnD whenever you need it, however, I'd advise against splitting 2 points to butchery.

Edit: For the sake of Completeness...
Dark Conv: Is about 2.83% for 5/5 or 0.57% per point.

So that's all for now. I'll provide some more APE values as the patch gets finalized.

Really nice & helpful analysis, Method, thank you for that.

I am wondering - have you analyzed a mixed build 7/10/54 - or any variation, depending on the points spent in BCB, Morbidity, Epidemic, IuP?

I was trying today on the PTR both 0/10/61 and the above build, and the results were within ~30dps of each other over 10minute trials.

From what I can tell, you'd be giving up about 3% by taking both sets of 'bad' talents in exchange for Desecration and the suggested points in your post. I don't see any added utility either aside from threat reduction and more RP room to play with.

I'd like to see each tree have some solid points on first tier so that builds like this would be more viable. I'd also like a good reason to go deeper than 12 points in Blood or 10 points in Frost. Can't have it all I guess.

Definitely an excellent breakdown of the talents. So for now it looks like 12/0/59 will be better than 0/10/61. However, we know that eventually 0/10/61 had the potential to pass it. Has anyone tried to figure out the stat point where that could be the case or close to it? I'm assuming we won't be seeing that point in Ulduar all best in slot.

Really nice talents analysis Methods. Do you have numbers for optimal glyphs for those builds or a breakdown on DPS increase for them?

Nice overview methods

If you tried them on dummies the results could be a bit flawed.

For example 10/61 amplifies the magic damage (frost and shadow) which already ignore armor, while the blood subspec with 2H weapon spec benefits more in raid situations with sundered mobs.

Also something simple as devotion aura in raids improve the blood subspec slightly.

Well Ghoul and Scourge Strike are still pretty much a given.

The 3th glyph is a bit harder. The options are pretty much Unholy Blight glyph vs Dark Death.
You can see my calculations on the previous page, but its pretty much like this:

Dark Death will be better as you keep the 4xT7 bonus, if you lose that however Unholy Blight will probably take the lead.

UB frees up 1 GCD every minute, and gives 1 DC worth of RP extra to spend.
Dark Death increases damage by 15%, which without 4xT7 means 6 death coils (in a minute). 6*15% = 90%. So the damage increase is less than the Unholy Blight one.

UB would give some additional benefits as well:
- Easier to maintain when you have the gargoyle out (its not hard atm, but it'll be even easier)
- More stable uptime in general
- Less dps loss if you refresh it a bit too early

However, If (and most likely it is) ulduar involves a lot of movement where you are out of range, then it might be best to stick to Glyph of Dark Death.

NOTE: Movement fights don't necessarily mean you can't use Unholy Blight though, I personally use UB on every encounter in WotLK, since every boss has at least a 20 second window where i can keep dpsing.
The only encounter that is somewhat of an exception so far is Grobbulus, that's the only fight where I often "refuse" to use UB.

Foxx - yes, I was unable to get into a raid or group at the time i was checking so my "numbers" were based on a boss dummy in Exodar. The good part is that I actually get higher numbers on the dummies than what I have on live - which at least in part is related to the Sigil of Awareness I have on the test servers - this is week #17, and I have yet to see a single drop off Heigan or Gluth. So generally speaking, I am looking forward to the 3.1 patch.

As far as the glyphs go - I am also leaning a bit toward the UB glyph. I already have my doubts even on live about the IT glyph, but due to the fact there is nothing better I still use it. However, I will replace it as soon as I find either an UB or Dark Death glyph, aiming more for the UB one.

I'm really looking forward to trying out both 0/10/61 and 12/0/59 in a raid setting - they both look promising.

Hey Method,

When you're comparing 0/10/61 and 12/0/59 i know the latter barely pulls ahead and it has been mentioned BA and 2h wep spec scale with sunders, devo aura, etc. But how much more dps are you getting with the additional Unholy talents going 0/10/61? Isnt this enough to outweigh 12/0/59?

Maybe seeing how much the blood talents scale raid buffed and then compare that to the extra Unholy talents you get in 0/10/61. I'm skeptical of absolutlely everything but 0/10/61 looks very interesting.

Well that is a paralel issue.

If you are gonna consider glyphs and talents as well for that matter you actually have to split them up, probaby more so with unholy than with blood or frost.

On one side you have a focus on boss dps, mostly single target. Of course there are fights where you have adds, but the focus on most boss fights concentrates on single target dps.
On the other side there is general performance. Including trash dps as well as "gimmicky boss fights".
IMO both standpoint carry a sort of validity.

If you go for the first standpoint, then glyph of DnD is largely useless. Sure there are some boss fights where you use DnD (Sarth 3D for example), but those fights are rare and the amount of DnD applications are minor.

From the second standpoint however, glyph of DnD holds a good value. I mean its +20% DnD damage vs practially 1 extra death coil per minute. If you count trash and boss fights with a lot of adds, the DnD will win hands down most likely.

I would probably get a spec with morbidity and glyph of DnD if I could dual spec for it. I however am gonna use my second spec for a tanking spec (i'll be the person that swaps in and out whenever an extra tank is needed).

So far in this game the point's where top dps really mattered have always been single target dps, even on Sarth 3D where the adds play a huge role, the focuspoint of the fight revolves mostly around single target dpsing the twilight drakes down asap. Therefor most of these discussions are assuming just that.
Another issue is that while there are fights with single target dps and single target + AoE dps, there isn't any fight (afaik) that only focuses around aoe dps. Therefor some people feel that something like glyph of DnD is "wasted" on fights that dont include AoE.

Taking Naxx as a layout here you can check boss per boss how valuable extra DnD damage really is and then you'll be rather disappointed.
Anub - We always single target the adds and single target dps the boss
Widow - There is a use for DnD here, but only temporarily for the first 2 adds.
Maexxna - No real use (unless you fight the small spiders or something)
Patchwerk - No use
Grobbulus - No use (unless you're on slimes)
Gluth - Useful here
Thadius - No Use
Noth - Practially useless, i mean you can do more dps on the adds, but the adds in this phase just keep you busy while you wait for the boss to come back. Extra damage wouldn't contribute anything unless you are insanely undergeared for the fight
Heigan - No use
Loatheb - No use
Razuvious - No use
Gothik - Again, its nice on the adds, but... does that really matter ? I dont think so, we're usually waiting for the adds because they die to fast anyway
4HM - No use
Sapph - No use
KT - Phase 1, but again. Totally trivial for the fight itself.

The only 3 fights where getting adds down asap matter in WotLK raids (as far as i know) are:
- Gluth (faster you get them down the faster you can dps the boss, ofc the fight is easy but its about the mechanic)
- Sartharion xD (Tenebron's adds and the flame elementals, the faster you AoE them down the less of a nuisance.)
- Malygos phase 2 (if you aoe down the ground adds it would help, if you single target dps it doesn't though)

I guess a lot is going to depend on the type of boss fights in ulduar.


----------

Also UB glyph doesn't really add anything to an AoE situation, like i said you save 1 deathcoil with it every minute. Which is trivial in an aoe situation. Glyph of UB (and glyph of dark death too for that matter) are largely for single target dps. (not that it isn't good, because the extra 10 seconds is awesome, but dps wise it doesn't really do much)

Improved Unholy Presence

so, while searching for points to free I was wandering about IUP.

I know the math, I know it´s commonly accepted to be a "must have", and I don´t want to beat a dead horse ;-)

But here I go anyway:

Pro´s:
- faster on your target = more time to inflict damage
- faster "out of the fire"

Con´s:
- while moving you are able to inflict damage too (IT/BB/DC/DnD)
- without the raidwide utility, it´s somewhat useless to be faster then the raid, because you often move as a whole (Heigan) or have to wait for all to be in position (Loatheb->Spores)
- Even if the fight requires movement, it´s only a part of the fight with a lot of static time

So, beat me for it, but without the raidwide utility I personally rather spend the 2 points somewhere else (even if I go for something like Subversion). The math to backup the need for IUP seems very "theoretical" compared to my own experience while raiding. As a raidwide buff, I would never leave it behind, but right now I rather go for an enchant + free these 2 points.

PS:grammer + typos...sorry if it offends any native speaker

Simply put: Ulduar hard modes =/= Naxx tank and spank.

If you have done Sarth3D ask yourself:
Would I like to have 1% damage increase or run faster on that fight?
I definitely would like to run faster, even "only" 7% faster.

BTW: They fixed EP stacking.

I never doubted it comes in handy (even very handy) at times.

The question is, are these times large enough to justify 2 Talent-Points?

Concerning damage -> How big is the part of the raid/fight were you actually profit from IUP + the fact that in a part of the part were you profit from IUP you already can provide some decent damage ?

Concerning survivability -> How often do you really depend an IUP to survive ? Undoubtly it gives you more time to react and move faster out of the fire...but maybe an enchant would already do the job?

This may come down to personal preference, spending 2 points for more survivability. The actual worth concerning an increase in damage I dare to doubt.

Will somebody notice your 1% more dps? No.
Does it matter? Very, very rarely when you wipe on 0.00001% or fail achievement by milliseconds (but you can fail those also because you were moving 7% slower and had those few swings less).

Will somebody notice your corpse? Yes.
Does it matter? Most of the time - yes it does.

One question and one comment. Is the morbidity value assuming DC sigil and glyph?

There is a problem with saying 12/0/59 is just ahead of 0/10/61 here. The problem being that 0/10/61 will have two advantages that you did not note. The first being that 0/10/61 will have better aoe. The second being that 0/10/61 will have better damage from range. I would certainly sacrifice 1% single target dps for 3% aoe and 5% damage from range(using rough estimates here ofcourse), not to mention that the extra 2 points in unholy allows for immeasureable talents like improved unholy presence.

Question answer: DC Glyph not sigil

You are correct that my numbers are focused almost entirely on single target dps. Whether you would see that large of a discrepancy between the two would be interesting to see. Remember that the only talents that wont affect aoe in blood are subversion and 2h spec (even though you are likely still using melee abilities). BA is actually more valuable for AoE than it is for Single target.

Imp IT is better for ranged dps than the blood alternatives but remember that we cant use BB to get 4x IT anymore (but BB is stronger now and getting 10% from Black ice so that point may be moot).

Whatever the case I'll see if I can find the time to do an AoE and/or ranged analysis.

The points gained in Unholy from 12/0/59 to 0/10/61 are more than likely a toss up between points in Morb or BCB and not IUP but I guess some may see otherwise. As was just stated above, I'd prefer to live. If it weren't for 15% movement I can name the number of times I wouldn't have died to void zones on one hand.

With lesser gear, I think it would still be worth spending points in Dark Conviction over BCB and Desecration. At present my crit is low without it.

I was planning on going with the following:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9722

Since crit is weak stat for a DK (only affects half your damage), even with low crit you would be better off with the Unholy talents.


Regarding Imp Unholy Presence, that talent (affecting Unholy Aura) sounds very useful for leveling/grinding, but nothing else.

All melee classes gain 30% more haste from haste rating

Sorry for bringing this up if this has already been debated but is it a better idea to max out BCB or Morbidity in the 12/0/59 talent spec? I think what I gather from methods post is that if we can assume 100% contact that BCB is much better. Am I correct?