Ashur25

Am not sure about the "much" part, but essentially yes. Problem is Ulduar has a lot of movement

 

Spotnick

Edit: Goes more in Q&A thread. Sorry.

 

Foxx2405

From a pure single target dps point of view BCB is stronger.

However in the end i think it will be a preference call. For the same reason I'm thinking of putting points in Corpse Explosion and Ghoul Frenzy if i end up speccing 10/61 (which for some reason appeals to me more by the day).
They are next to useless in boss fights, but i like corpse explosion for trash (when UB is up, CE is an insanely good dump of RP on trash), for grinding and the casual PvP (just some BGs in pve spec or so), next to that its an awesome ability.
Ghoul Frenzy pretty much the same reason, useless on most boss fights, but i can see myself using it on a couple of gimmicky fights (think sapphiron as you run back after an iceblock), you can use it for grinding and for casual PvP.
On top of that its an ability i can spam while i run circles in dalaran when i'm bored.

I'd rather have that then getting 1.2% dps on a stand and nuke fight which (as Fugazor said, nobody even notices), as i like flexibility.
However that is besides the point, as the focus of the discussion is getting the best DPS spec, in which CE and GF dont really have a place.

-------

I'm wondering a bit how Methods got to BCB being 3.4% dps though. Does BCB scale better than all our other attacks? Because on an average patchwerk fight BCB barely manages to reach 2% of my dps.

 

methods

I'm not sure how 100% accurate these figures are so take them as preliminary at best.

Morbidity: Being able to DND (unglyphed) every 15 seconds instead of every 30 makes calculating it's relative value a bit convoluted. If rune cooldowns were 5 seconds it would make sense but they are 10. At the very least to be able to get the desired dps increase having 2 points in morbidity should be nearly as efficient as having all 3.

After some simple test runs I've concluded that being able to use DND every 20 seconds plus the value of a 10% buffed DC is worth relatively 2.2% (or 2.0% for 2 points not including Deathcoil) in an aoe situation with 4 mobs. You can then calculate the relative value of Morbidity based on how many fights you will use it with at least that many mobs. For simplicity sake lets say you have at least 50% of your damage coming from AoE fights that have the chance to DND twice in 30 seconds. Morbidity would be ~=(0.5% * 0.5 + 2.2% * 0.5)=~1.35% for 2 points or 0.675%per point.

Black Ice and 0/10/61: Total dps does increase in an aoe fight by about 2.8% versus 12/0/59. Taking the same ratio as above we can say that 50% of the time will be AoE and 50% will be single target. 12/0/59 overtakes 0/10/61 by about 1% to 1.3% on average. That would mean on average 0/10/61 beats 12/0/59 by nearly 1%. EDIT: (2.8%*0.5 + -1.15%*.5)

This is all far too simple to matter too much but it does shed some light on possible outcomes.

Yes, the talent scales very well with gear. One thing that could be throwing off my numbers would be the value of burst. AoTD and Garg are a rather large part of our dps on patchwork type fights. If the fight is shorter than 3 minutes (which is what my tests are based on) you will see a sharp decline in everything else and steep increase on the burst abilities.

 

Swentik

which weapon rune is the best for the unholy spec?

 

Taidaisher

I apologize in advance if this question has been covered already, I've been sifting through this thread but haven't been able to find the link.

Can someone link or direct me to the link for the 12/0/59 or 0/10/61 builds please?

Answered via pm, thank you!

 

methods

Heres a suggested sample: 12/0/59 and 0/10/61

These, or variations of them, have been posted randomly over the last few pages.

 

Foxx2405

Ugh.. I guess in the end it'll be a total tossup. The 1-2% dps difference between the builds are hardly noticable, not to mention that the benefit swings either way depending on the fight.
Good job blizzard I guess

Rune of Fallen Crusader, as for all specs. I don't think this will change at all in 3.1.

12/0/59:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(points in BCB could be put in Morbidity, but as you can read thats an ongoing discussion)

10/61:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
This will probably be it. Methods made a good point that considering rune cooldowns, 2 points in morbidity will probably be as good 3 for general purpose DnD'ing. The 3th point will be helpful when AoE really matters though, but i think 2 points for general purpose will suffice.

[e]: Bah methods beat me to it

 

Gumibear

It's possible to use DnD faster than every 20 seconds. Look at how you would use runes. You don't use the same runes to cast DnD twice in a row if you're using DnD as often as possible.

0.0 DnD - BxFxUx
1.5 PS - BxFxxx
3.0 IT - Bxxxxx
4.5 Pest - xxxxxx

You get back the first 3 runes at 10 seconds
10.0 BB - xxFxUx
11.5 SS - xxxxxU - PS rune comes back
13.0 __ - xxFxxU - IT rune comes back
14.5 __ - BxFxxU - Pest rune comes back
15.0 DnD xxxxxx

Correct me if I made mistake in mapping out that rune usage. As long as you hold the FU rune pair from the first PS>IT combo, you can DnD shortly after the Pestilence rune comes back.

 

Foxx2405

This is true, but the rotation is a bit dodgy in many people's eyes because you're switching constantly between using 3 rune abilities, 2 rune abilities and 1 rune abilities.

But yea, a 15 second DnD rotation would come down to:

DnD>PS>IT>PT // SS>BB>DnD // PS>IT>PT>SS>BB // repeat

However like methods said the 20 second DnD rotaton looks a bit more simplistic:
DnD>PS>IT>PT // SS>BB>SS>BB // repeat

So its more attractive in its use for most people.

 

methods

This is basically what I was thinking. Yes, a 15 second rotation can work. The thing is that the only time you would actually see a difference between the two rotations is when AoE is going for more than 30 seconds which is pretty rare (for me at least).

SS Glyph: I didn't want to say much about this due to the possible confusion it could create but SS Glpyh on average doesn't actually give a noticeable increase in DPS when simulated. What the SS Glyph seems to do is make rotations A: more flexible and B: More fun. If you were 100% confident you could pull off a perfect set of rotations without it, you wouldn't see more than a little dps lost (~1%). I had this discussion with Zurm back in beta when my spreadsheets were not nearly as accurate. We concluded I was missing something and found a series of assumptions that don't hold true to 'real' situations. I think the major reason the SS Glyph is so 'required' is because of T7 4P bonus. With the advent of T8 and the change to PS's power I don't see it as 'required' but still a top choice.

Interestingly enough, the SS glyph makes the second point in epidemic much more potent as we had previously discussed in this thread.

From what I can see, the piece of the puzzle we've been missing in most of our theorycraft has been the timing of procs. Ideally, to pull off perfect SS Glyph procs, you would need to SS almost exactly on your disease ticks. This is almost impossible to do without delaying rune cooldowns and thus creating an even more complicated rotation than without the glyph. Fortunately, when luck is on your side you can see a substantial increase in DPS. Unfortunately, without the second point in epidemic you can actually see a decrease in dps if your SS Glyph decides to proc at the wrong times (for example: 2-3 times in a row creating a void of disease ticks).

I really need to stress that the SS Glyph is an extremely solid choice when it comes to real DPS. We've all seen our DPS rotations become smoother and our numbers increase because of it. I'm not saying that the SS Glyph isn't worth having over other alternatives either. All I'm saying is that the SS Glyph is better because we are prone to error. No matter what anyone says, a priority system is just more practical. If you view yourself as a robot you may be able to pull off a Glyphless rotation for roughly the same DPS + another glyph.

 

Stereonights

Assuming the previously mentioned rotation for 2/3 Morbidity:

0.0 DnD - BxFxUx
1.5 PS - BxFxxx
3.0 IT - Bxxxxx
4.5 Pe - xxxxxx

10.0 SS1 - Bxxxxx - DnD runes return
11.5 BB1 - xxxxxU - PS rune returns
13.0 SS2 - xxxxxx - IT rune returns
14.5 BB2 - xxxxxx - Pe rune returns

20.0 __ - xxFxUx - SS1 runes return
21.5 DnD - xxxxxx - BB1 rune returns

So, if your AoE session actually passes 20 seconds, you are waiting another 1.5 seconds to drop DnD on your throng of mobs. This is most likely irrelevant for a lot of people.

If you look at the two rotations, it would seem that the 2/3 Morbidity rotation will outdo the listed 3/3 Morbidity rotation within a 15 second window, as it has an extra BB to throw out. For me, AoE packs only seem to live long enough for one Death and Decay, so the extra BB would be favorable. Then again, the DnD>PS>IT>PT // SS>BB>SS>BB rotation is doable regardless of how many points one puts into Morbidity.

One reason I prefer maxing Morbidity is the amount of breathing room it gives you. Going with 2/3 Morbidity, I sometimes find myself waiting for DnD to refresh its cooldown after we move on to the next group to unleash our AoE spells. The extra 5 (or 6.5, depending) seconds of wait time is something I would personally do without. Of course, your mileage may vary, but the whole weighing of 2/3 and 3/3 Morbidity begins to look to me as though one is choosing between a 1/2 pound cheeseburger with large fries and a 2/3 pound cheeseburger with medium fries. In the end, the calories will weigh roughly the same.

 

Tenemit

I'm working on some numbers to calculate a single hit SS damage and this is what I have:
0/10/61
AP = 3.700
Dmg= 2.236

2.236*1.05=2.347 (Desecration)
2.347*1.02=2.394 (Bone Shield)
2.394*1.33=3.184 (SS Diseases Bonus)
(3.184*1.65)+357.19=2.427 (SS Base Dmg done with outbreak)
2.427*1.1=2.670 (Black Ice)
2.670+(3700*1.2)=3.410 (Impurity)
3.410*1.1=3.751 (Rivendare)
3.751*1.13=4.238 (Ebon P)

Total Dmg 4.238

the problem is thats more or less (like 100 Dmg) same damage I'm doing on live... I'm wrong in something here?

 

Yotka

Damage = 2236 ? Where do you get that coming from?

With 3700 AP and... a Betrayer (notice I like Betrayers... even though I don't have one ) :

(((758) + ((3700 / 14) * 3.3)) * 0.54) + 357.188 = 1237.46 Damage

1237.46*1.05 = 1299.33 (Desecration)

1299.33*1.02 = 1325.32 (Bone Shield)

1325.32*1.10 = 1457.85 (RoR)

1457.85*1.10 = 1603.64 (Black Ice)

1603.64*1.20 = 1924.37 (Impurity)

1924.37*1.13 = 2174.54 (EpB)

2174.54*1.22 = 2652.93 (2*Disease)

I don't quite see how your base damage is 2236 or how you rise to 4238 damage.

Factoring critical strike average damage into SS assuming 30% :

(1 - 0.3) + (2.3 * 0.3 ) = 1.39

2652.93*1.39 = 3687.57

And we are still far off from your 4238 damage.

Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95

 

Elementh

I may have missed it ... but since this comment i haven`t seen anybody talking about it .. neither on mmo-c. So is it true? and if yes give more information

 

Rayven01

The EP fix was noted first in the changes thread here.

 

Tenemit

I tried to use math/backwards to find the base damage... Guess I found the wrong base one..

AP = 3.700
Dmg= 733

(((733)+((3700/14)*3.3))*0.54)+357.188=1223.97 Base DMG

Now I came with 4 doubts:
-Where do you get the "14" and the "3.3" in that equation?
-Why did you multiply the result from Black Ice with the 20% from Impurity... I thought That It was X+20% of your AP?
-I remember that I read somewhere that EP count as a disease for the SS bonus... Is that true?
-How is my SS on Live Doing way more Damage than that?

 

methods

T8 Bonus:
Here's some helpful information for all those out there that want to transition from T7 to T8.

T7 4P Bonus is obviously one of the best Set bonuses we will ever see. That is all well and good but there comes a serious concern when considering upgrades. Here are a few rules I've thought up after running numbers.

First, get T8. It is good. However, it is only good as a set under the following conditions.

-If equipping a single or even double piece of T8 breaks your T7 4P bonus, don't.
-If you have 10 man T7 and want to replace it with 10 man T8, make sure to collect enough to get the 4P bonus from T8 before you break your T7 4P.
-If you only have 3 or less T7 it may still be worth getting before Ulduar.
-If you are considering an upgrade from T7 25man to T8 25 man the same rules apply above.
-If you have all 10 man T7 4P and have at least 3 T8 25man it is worth the upgrade. (Edited)
-A downgrade from 25man T7 to 10man T8 is not worth it or near 0 gain/loss.

That's all I can think of.

Here's hoping they buff T8 2P or more importantly 4P.

 

EwokChilli

Fixed some math. No sigils or anything. I'm assuming this is also for 3.1 theory.
edit: fixed a lack of Outbreak

 

Foxx2405

Long post inc

Yea agreed on the DnD issue.

As for the SS glyph I'm somewhat surprised. I know that it doesn't add that much dps, but I always thought it was decent for a glyph.

However i agree it doesn't really matter that much.

I like the SS glyph myself for what it does: spice up the rotation. I hate rotations that turn into a repetition of the same where you dont have to watch anything.
I really feared for the unholy rotation when i heared about Glyph of Diseases, because it would totally mess up the fun.

You're actually wrong there, rune cushioning was exactly deviced for that reason.

When you use BB in the 2nd cycle, the time to refresh won't be 10 seconds but 8.5 seconds (because its been waiting for 1.5 second already)

I agree with your reasoning for Morbidity though.

One of the best things i like about it is that its nearly always up when i need it.
When i move from 1 trash group to the next it's up.

That flexibility and higher reliance on my own abilities is why I personally prefer something like morbidity over BCB, because of that secondary effect.
However i think i'd settle for 2/3 if i decide to spec 10/61.


- 14 has to do with AP. 14 AP adds 1 weapon dps, its a basic formula to convert AP into dps (and thus damage).

- 3.3 comes from the normalization. Most of our instant attacks are normalized, which means that the contribution of Attack Power is independent from the speed of your weapon.

Just think about it... Imagine you have 4200 AP. That means it increases your weapon dps (for individual strikes) by 4200 / 14 = 300 dps

Now say you'd have a 3.0 speed 2H and a 4.0 speed 2H (just to make the example). On the 3.0 speed 2 hander that 300 dps would give 300 * 3.0 = 900 damage (this is purely the contribution from AP)
On the 4.0 speed 2 hander you'd get 1200 damage from attack power.

Thats quite unfair and would mean that you'd do a lot more dps by having a slower weapon.
It's fair on white damage because the slower weapon hits less often, on most % procs it would be fair too since a faster weapon would proc it more. But on instant attacks it isnt, so they made normalization.

All 2 handers benefit from AP like if they had a 3.30 attack speed.

- He calculated impurity wrong indeed.
The best way to calculate impurity is to just add 20% to your AP for that occasion. That makes sure you iron out the error before you can really make a mess out of it.

However it doesn't matter because Scourge Strike does NOT benefit from Impurity. It's not a Spell.
Only attacks that use an APC (Attack Power Conversion) benefit from Impurity (pretty much any non-strike instant)

- Crypt Fever (and its advanced form Ebon Plaguebringer) count as a disease indeed. Just use a 1.33 multiplier for diseases. As Ewok did.

- Number of reasons for your SS to do way more damage, usually in the form of an selfbuff or debuff on the target. This is the theoretical value for a non-debuffed (except for diseases) and non-selfbuffed SS.


I think he somehow included Outbreak into the base calculation, not that that would make much sense though.

Either way if you fixed it, you forgot to put it back in.

 

ShadowofNight

Heres the updated talent build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight
The good thing is the 2 most popular talent builds post 3.1 seem to be unchanged by the update.

 

Sekke

So, if I'm reading this right, it seems like you're saying that it's only worth it to break 25 man T7 4P if you can replace it with 4P T8 (25 man)? How much of a priority should it be to attain 4P T8? Obviously it isn't as good as T7, but would you suggest getting off-set pieces first or trying to get 4P asap?

 

shed

You'll want to get 4 piece T8 ASAP.

 

Illundai

Here actually Which is quite a few builds ago.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Oblivium

Question...

Im looking forward to try the 0/10/61 as soon as it goes live, but... isn't the 5% crit loss (for not having Dark Conviction) a little bit too much?

Since, with my current gear, I have about 30% crit, going to 25% all of a sudden seems to me a great loss.

(or am I missing something?)