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Old 04/02/09, 4:24 PM   #2001
methods
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Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Griefpb View Post
First off I want to thank you guys for all the help. I got back into WoW a little over a month ago and immedietly made a DK, because of the information on this site I was able to become one of if not the top dps in my guild, and we have had naxx on farm for a while.

With that said, I have a question about specs in 3.1. I've been following both this board and the Blood dps thread and I'm wondering what spec is doing the most damage as of 3.1. I love Unholy, but I've been thinking about switching to Blood for the increased survivability while I learn Ulduar fights.

Keep up the good work and thanks for the help. And if this question is in the wrong spot, please let me know and I'll move it.
Currently, both my simulators and even the new Sim created by Kahorie are showing similar results in this order.

Unholy 2H> Blood 2H> Frost 2H> DW everything

My highest possible dps is with Unholy 0/10/61 then 12/0/59
Then followed VERY closely by Blood 51/1+/18+
And the runner-up currently (in my spreadsheets/sims) being 0+/51+/17+ then 17/51+/0+

Unholy and Blood are literally neck and neck within a couple percent where frost is trailing by about 5-7%
DW is almost impossible to see being viable at this point.

Remember this is all Theorycraft assuming max buffs/stats (Ulduar hard mode gear etc) and a fair bit of it could be chalked up to glitches and forgotten assumptions. Regardless, those are my predictions above anyway.

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Old 04/02/09, 4:56 PM   #2002
Griefpb
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by methods View Post
Currently, both my simulators and even the new Sim created by Kahorie are showing similar results in this order.

Unholy 2H> Blood 2H> Frost 2H> DW everything

My highest possible dps is with Unholy 0/10/61 then 12/0/59
Then followed VERY closely by Blood 51/1+/18+
And the runner-up currently (in my spreadsheets/sims) being 0+/51+/17+ then 17/51+/0+

Unholy and Blood are literally neck and neck within a couple percent where frost is trailing by about 5-7%
DW is almost impossible to see being viable at this point.

Remember this is all Theorycraft assuming max buffs/stats (Ulduar hard mode gear etc) and a fair bit of it could be chalked up to glitches and forgotten assumptions. Regardless, those are my predictions above anyway.
If they are pretty close right now then I will probably go Blood right now for the DS built into the rotation for the added survivability.
What sigil have you been using for Unholy? Sigil of Awareness or the new DC sigil?

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Old 04/02/09, 5:17 PM   #2003
Kithus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Vek'nilash
To be fair I've got a DW unholy spec spitting out just under 6300 DPS with best known ulduar gear on the sim. Bear in mind that there are no DPS one handers over iLevel 226 known yet.

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Old 04/02/09, 5:26 PM   #2004
methods
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Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Griefpb View Post
If they are pretty close right now then I will probably go Blood right now for the DS built into the rotation for the added survivability.
What sigil have you been using for Unholy? Sigil of Awareness or the new DC sigil?
DC/FS for Blood and Frost

Awareness for Unholy

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Old 04/02/09, 5:39 PM   #2005
methods
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Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Kithus View Post
To be fair I've got a DW unholy spec spitting out just under 6300 DPS with best known ulduar gear on the sim. Bear in mind that there are no DPS one handers over iLevel 226 known yet.
Fair enough. That same gear with a 2H would be higher DPS with the appropriate spec and priority. Feel free to try and refute that and if you can find a legitimate DW spec that can at least be on par with 2H there are plenty who would like to see it (including myself).

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Old 04/02/09, 6:36 PM   #2006
ksearo
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Disargeria View Post
Is that considering the armor penetration buff in the patch?
It isn't; in patch 3.1 it should go down to 166.212.

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Old 04/02/09, 7:17 PM   #2007
Lollersk8er
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by methods View Post
Currently, both my simulators and even the new Sim created by Kahorie are showing similar results in this order.

Unholy 2H> Blood 2H> Frost 2H> DW everything

My highest possible dps is with Unholy 0/10/61 then 12/0/59
Then followed VERY closely by Blood 51/1+/18+
And the runner-up currently (in my spreadsheets/sims) being 0+/51+/17+ then 17/51+/0+

Unholy and Blood are literally neck and neck within a couple percent where frost is trailing by about 5-7%
DW is almost impossible to see being viable at this point.

Remember this is all Theorycraft assuming max buffs/stats (Ulduar hard mode gear etc) and a fair bit of it could be chalked up to glitches and forgotten assumptions. Regardless, those are my predictions above anyway.
I get DW Unholy at the top, followed closely by 2h Unholy and Blood. Frost is slightly lower and DW Frost is not viable anymore.

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Old 04/02/09, 8:25 PM   #2008
Nerub
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Azshara (EU)
Originally Posted by methods View Post
Currently, both my simulators and even the new Sim created by Kahorie are showing similar results in this order.

Unholy 2H> Blood 2H> Frost 2H> DW everything

My highest possible dps is with Unholy 0/10/61 then 12/0/59
Then followed VERY closely by Blood 51/1+/18+
And the runner-up currently (in my spreadsheets/sims) being 0+/51+/17+ then 17/51+/0+

Unholy and Blood are literally neck and neck within a couple percent where frost is trailing by about 5-7%
DW is almost impossible to see being viable at this point.

Remember this is all Theorycraft assuming max buffs/stats (Ulduar hard mode gear etc) and a fair bit of it could be chalked up to glitches and forgotten assumptions. Regardless, those are my predictions above anyway.
What are the Ghoul uptime assumptions for these tests? When our little friend dies even with NotD on some bosses Blood will likely pull ahead. Even the Gargoyle may die during certain fights whereas DRW keeps on beating.

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Old 04/02/09, 9:38 PM   #2009
Amaurea
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Ysera
I've been trying to keep up with what everyone is saying on here about the upcoming changes. What I was wondering is, how are the three builds (12/0/59, 17/0/54, 0/10/61) stacking up to each other and does anyone have a link to each of them.

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Old 04/03/09, 4:40 AM   #2010
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Amaurea View Post
I've been trying to keep up with what everyone is saying on here about the upcoming changes. What I was wondering is, how are the three builds (12/0/59, 17/0/54, 0/10/61) stacking up to each other and does anyone have a link to each of them.
About 5 pages ago this was summed up, you might wanna skip a few pages back.

Also as far as i know 17/0/54 is no longer a really viable spec since it lacks desecration.

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Old 04/03/09, 5:53 AM   #2011
Halle
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Worgen Death Knight
 
Alonsus (EU)
What we could have really used is a new thread for Unholy PTR testing where the OP keeps up to date info on what people have found rather than a mish mash of pre and post patch data requiring 2 days work to sift through.

Probably a bit late now though.

Ascendance - EU Alonsus 8/8 DS 25 HC prenerf.

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Old 04/03/09, 7:16 AM   #2012
Lovepotato
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Death Knight
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
It's been reading the comparing of Desecration to Dark Conviction, but what about Dark Conviction to Necrosis? I think someone mentioned BCB worked out to be more worthwhile point for point, and I myself am a big fan of moribidity.

17/0/54

I don't have access to the PTR, but I cannot see myself picking up necrosis now with the current total % of damage it's contributing to some of your parses.

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Old 04/03/09, 8:17 AM   #2013
Gavain
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Forscherliga (EU)
I was thinking about the same build Lovepotato...without IUP beeing raidwide I doubt (as I said before) it is worth the two points for pure survivability.

So you can get Dark Conviction + Desecration, which looks very nice indeed.

I can resist anything, but temptation (O.Wilde)

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Old 04/03/09, 9:01 AM   #2014
Herrm
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Herrm
Orc Warlock
 
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Originally Posted by Gavain View Post
I doubt (as I said before) it is worth the two points for pure survivability.
It's been stated before in this thread that IUP isn't only "pure survivability", it's also a DPS gain, especially in Ulduar where literally every boss encounter I've tested (which is all of them available to the US, 7/14) require heavy movement, minus the obvious Flame Leviathan.

The only thing that could really be considered debatable in regards to moving faster in raids (again, especially Ulduar), is whether or not Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality - Spell - World of Warcraft (8% movement speed increase) + the then 1 (8% movement speed increase) or 2 (15% movement speed increase) spare talent points from not needing IUP is better than Enchant Boots - Greater Assault - Spell - World of Warcraft.

Edit: Having tried all of the different builds in a true raid environment, so far I have had the best results while being 14/0/57

Last edited by Herrm : 04/03/09 at 9:53 AM. Reason: Added spec

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Old 04/03/09, 10:15 AM   #2015
methods
Piston Honda
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Gavain View Post
I was thinking about the same build Lovepotato...without IUP beeing raidwide I doubt (as I said before) it is worth the two points for pure survivability.

So you can get Dark Conviction + Desecration, which looks very nice indeed.
Maybe I haven't removed all the modifiers that I should have but so far Necrosis still beats out DarkCon in single target dps. Not by too much but just saying.

Also, I had crit factoring into BCB on my last talent breakdown so the numbers should be adjusted to a bit less than before.

With current T7 gear

DC .58% per point (ulduar gear = no change)
Necrosis .75% per point (ulduar gear = .84%)
BCB .83% per point (ulduar gear = .93%)

The value of Nec and BCB goes up with ArP obviously.

Just an interesting note: In ulduar gear necrosis, impurity and desecration are all nearly exactly the same worth with current assumptions for single target dps.

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Old 04/03/09, 11:48 AM   #2016
Seref
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Arthas
I think my math may be wrong, but its showing:

pest glyph being 4x the dps increase as ss glyph

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Old 04/03/09, 11:49 AM   #2017
 Darkside
I find your lack of faith disturbing
 
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Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
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Originally Posted by Seref View Post
I think my math may be wrong, but its showing:

pest glyph being 4x the dps increase as ss glyph
Could you please copy your math so that we can check your numbers?

Three steps to a better EJB experience: Step One, Step Two, Step Three

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The Ignore functionality doesn't work if you guys keep quoting him.

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Old 04/03/09, 11:51 AM   #2018
Valtiel
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
Could you please copy your math so that we can check your numbers?

I don't see any math possibly proving that an ability that requires a blood run to use gives you more dps than one that comes for free. I'm intrigued too.

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Old 04/03/09, 12:22 PM   #2019
Kithus
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by methods View Post
Fair enough. That same gear with a 2H would be higher DPS with the appropriate spec and priority. Feel free to try and refute that and if you can find a legitimate DW spec that can at least be on par with 2H there are plenty who would like to see it (including myself).

I'd be very interested to know what the top two handed spec is putting out for numbers in Kahorie's sim with available BiS Ulduar gear using an iLevel 226 weapon. If you've got the numbers it would be great to be able to make some comparisons. Either that or if someone has what they beleive to be the best 2 handed spec and a priority sheet for the sim I'll be happy to run it and tweak it to maximize the numbers myself.

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Old 04/03/09, 12:29 PM   #2020
Seref
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Arthas
SS Glyph (when it procs) gives you an extra SS at the loss of IT+PS dmg. And it procs 1/4 the time:
(866.3 - 85.8 - 91.7)/4 = 172.2

Pest Glyph makes you trade BS+IT+PS worth of dmg for an extra SS:
(866.3 - 152.5 - 85.8 - 91.7) = 536.3

172.2 / 536.3 = .32 SS Glyph is ~1/3 of Pest Glyph.

*I'm using the dps from NeuroMedivh's 5min test for these calculations.

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Old 04/03/09, 12:32 PM   #2021
Valtiel
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Seref View Post
SS Glyph (when it procs) gives you an extra SS at the loss of IT+PS dmg. And it procs 1/4 the time:
(866.3 - 85.8 - 91.7)/4 = 172.2

Pest Glyph makes you trade BS+IT+PS worth of dmg for an extra SS:
(866.3 - 152.5 - 85.8 - 91.7) = 536.3

172.2 / 536.3 = .32 SS Glyph is ~1/3 of Pest Glyph.

*I'm using the dps from NeuroMedivh's 5min test for these calculations.

You're seriously implying that the SS glyph proccs once every 4 rotations?

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Old 04/03/09, 12:35 PM   #2022
Seref
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Human Death Knight
 
Arthas
o_0 Wow...i guess 2hours of sleep really isn't enough...

I'll redo my math.

K nvm, SS Glyph is better than Pest Glyph... By like 28%

edit: Would SCT show ur SS Procs? (haven't tried it)

Last edited by Seref : 04/03/09 at 12:42 PM.

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Old 04/03/09, 12:58 PM   #2023
 Darkside
I find your lack of faith disturbing
 
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Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Seref View Post
edit: Would SCT show ur SS Procs? (haven't tried it)
I don't think so, but you can just watch your disease timers and hit IT/PS if you see them getting low (< 3s).

Three steps to a better EJB experience: Step One, Step Two, Step Three

And remember:
Originally Posted by Zeroblack View Post
The Ignore functionality doesn't work if you guys keep quoting him.

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Old 04/03/09, 1:18 PM   #2024
Stein
Don Flamenco
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Nerub View Post
What are the Ghoul uptime assumptions for these tests? When our little friend dies even with NotD on some bosses Blood will likely pull ahead. Even the Gargoyle may die during certain fights whereas DRW keeps on beating.
The blood spec being cited above is blood/unholy, right? ...with a ghoul?

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Old 04/03/09, 1:33 PM   #2025
methods
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Human Death Knight
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
The blood spec being cited above is blood/unholy, right? ...with a ghoul?
51/2/18 without a ghoul wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Ghoul uptime for 51/2/18 was assumed at ~55%

Ghoul AND Garg uptime for any Unholy build was assumed at ~95%

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