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Old 02/03/09, 2:20 PM   #1261
Waterboy
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Bender222 View Post
Is 3/3 out of 3 blood caked blade really that much better than virulence? bcb barely procs and does mediocre damage. I would think having a spellhit cap so much closer to the normal melee hit cap would make a large difference in dps than 5% more chance to proc Bcb. I also found that I still do alot of dailies and having on a pale horse makes me feel like I do them alot faster/easier. I regularly raid with other dks that have unholy aura aswell so Im covered. I didn't really see anything else that would significantly boost my dps though.
If you look under the Death Knight PvE Dps topic in the think tank there is a list breaking down how much DPS per point your talents are. I'm quite sure that BCB is more damage per point as well as per roation than virulence. I had to reference it when I was looking at which talent to drop a point in to pick up CE for the fun factor.

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Old 02/03/09, 3:48 PM   #1262
Stoical
Piston Honda
 
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Goblin Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Waterboy View Post
If you look under the Death Knight PvE Dps topic in the think tank there is a list breaking down how much DPS per point your talents are. I'm quite sure that BCB is more damage per point as well as per roation than virulence. I had to reference it when I was looking at which talent to drop a point in to pick up CE for the fun factor.
As a general note on that list as a whole, the DK post in the thinktank is extremely out of date. I would not rely on most of the numbers in that post, including EP values and a number of the talent values.

That said, to the OP on this issue, my most recent Naxx-25 all-boss parse puts BcB at 2% of my damage, 312,595. 2/3 of that would be 206,312, a loss of 106,283. My DC+UB+IT damage=2,493,514. 1% of that is 24,935.14. So just with that quick napkin math, if I had 2/3 BcB and 3/3 Virulence instead of 3/3 BcB and 2/3 Virulence on that run, I probably would have done ~81,347.86 less damage.

Last edited by Stoical : 02/03/09 at 3:59 PM.

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Old 02/03/09, 3:57 PM   #1263
Waterboy
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Stoical View Post
The DK post in the thinktank is extremely out of date. I would not rely on any of the numbers in that post.
Seeing is how the talents in question haven't changed (yes BCB was changed for DW, but we're talking 2h), then I don't see why the information between the two would be that far off and wouldn't at least give a good enough answer.

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Old 02/03/09, 4:00 PM   #1264
Stoical
Piston Honda
 
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Goblin Rogue
 
Black Dragonflight
Originally Posted by Waterboy View Post
Seeing is how the talents in question haven't changed (yes BCB was changed for DW, but we're talking 2h), then I don't see why the information between the two would be that far off and wouldn't at least give a good enough answer.
Agreed on that point, I reworded my post above and ran some numbers to confirm. There are other talents on that list that have changed for us as well, but not BcB - Ravenous Dead is more valuable now that ghoul has been buffed, for example, and Necrosis was buffed as well.

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Old 02/03/09, 5:11 PM   #1265
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Stoical View Post
As a general note on that list as a whole, the DK post in the thinktank is extremely out of date. I would not rely on most of the numbers in that post, including EP values and a number of the talent values.

That said, to the OP on this issue, my most recent Naxx-25 all-boss parse puts BcB at 2% of my damage, 312,595. 2/3 of that would be 206,312, a loss of 106,283. My DC+UB+IT damage=2,493,514. 1% of that is 24,935.14. So just with that quick napkin math, if I had 2/3 BcB and 3/3 Virulence instead of 3/3 BcB and 2/3 Virulence on that run, I probably would have done ~81,347.86 less damage.
Yea indeed.

However, remember this is napkin math.

Hit is actually worth more than 1% dps on the spell, because of the 2 roll system.

Also there is a second part to it.
Missing IT in your rotation can have some nasty consequences for your whole rotation.

However I do think that dps wise BCB is better than virulence.

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Old 02/03/09, 7:59 PM   #1266
Disargeria
Piston Honda
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Boulderfist
Is anyone else upset over Ghostcrawler's reasoning behind Ebon Plaguebringer still not being fixed?

However, as I said the last time this question was asked, our priority right now is making sure more DKs spec Frost or Blood, not how to reward groups that bring multiple Unholy DKs. We do recognize it is annoying though and we'll get it fixed.
One of the biggest banes to Unholy spec DKs is another Unholy DK. It seems that this isn't being fixed because Unholy is popular amongst DKs, and they want DKs to use the other specs more. I don't really see why they consider having multiple U DKs a "reward". There isn't any extra utility that they provide, other than AMZs, I suppose.

Looking at these forums, you can see that every spec is very much talked about and used. Do you think Unholy is more popular in game because it has more fun mechanics and is suitable in more variety of situations?

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Old 02/03/09, 8:46 PM   #1267
Tel
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Kazzak (EU)
Thats some appalling customer communication. I can't seriously believe he posted that.

Whether it's the case or not he shouldn't be saying 'we haven't fixed the problem because we want you to stop using that spec and start using these other worse ones'.

Thankfully it's not more than 100 or so DPS lost, which with todays easy raiding isn't an issue. If we hit Ulduar and it's still not fixed, then I agree we have a problem that needs addressing. For the moment, I think it's safe to say that the reason it's not been done is its not viewed as terribly important (which in the overall scheme of things, it isnt). Lets just wait and see what happens.

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Old 02/03/09, 10:20 PM   #1268
shed
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Scilla
My recommendation for fixing Ebon Plague is to simply make it a debuff on the mob that isn't a disease and make Crypt Fever go up and only affect the DK that put it up (so we'll see multiple CFs) and make CF provide a disease increase to that DK only.

Last edited by shed : 02/03/09 at 11:18 PM.

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Old 02/04/09, 12:40 AM   #1269
Poplocker
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Altar of Storms
Whats the current 3.0.8 Unholy and Blood DPS Spec? one that gets alot of DPS

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Old 02/04/09, 7:32 AM   #1270
Kapaneus
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Disargeria View Post
Looking at these forums, you can see that every spec is very much talked about and used. Do you think Unholy is more popular in game because it has more fun mechanics and is suitable in more variety of situations?
I use it because it just does so much damage. I tried blood spec last night, and still topped the meter, but did a lot less damage. To give you an example, I did the same DPS on loatheb as blood as I did on Anub'rekhan as unholy. W T F.

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Old 02/04/09, 10:52 AM   #1271
Coffins
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by shed View Post
My recommendation for fixing Ebon Plague is to simply make it a debuff on the mob that isn't a disease and make Crypt Fever go up and only affect the DK that put it up (so we'll see multiple CFs) and make CF provide a disease increase to that DK only.
I was thinking giving it a Storm Strike / Flame Shock-esque mechanic would solve the problem.

You can have multiple Storm Strike and Flame Shock debuffs on a single target yet they only apply to their respective Shaman. Shaman A's Lava Burst won't consume Shaman B's Flame Shock, and the same policy applies for Storm Strike. Why not do the same with Ebon Plaguebringer? I know Storm Strike and Flame Shock use different mechanics for different purposes, but I'm sure it's something Blizzard could make work. Earth And Moon and Curse Of Elements can all be applied but won't stack.

I don't see why this can't be tuned similarly, and why it hasn't been done already.

Originally Posted by Disargeria View Post
Is anyone else upset over Ghostcrawler's reasoning behind Ebon Plaguebringer still not being fixed?



One of the biggest banes to Unholy spec DKs is another Unholy DK. It seems that this isn't being fixed because Unholy is popular amongst DKs, and they want DKs to use the other specs more. I don't really see why they consider having multiple U DKs a "reward". There isn't any extra utility that they provide, other than AMZs, I suppose.

Looking at these forums, you can see that every spec is very much talked about and used. Do you think Unholy is more popular in game because it has more fun mechanics and is suitable in more variety of situations?
I try not to have a huge opinion in what CM's do or say, but Ghostcrawler saying "we wanted you to try other specs anyway" was kind of like kicking dirt in my face. I really enjoy Unholy. Originally I played a Ret Paladin that went Holy for Wrath. I found Ret boring because it's still a shallow spec so I went Holy and began leveling my Deathknight. I've tried Blood and played it thoroughly through the beta but I found it a little too close to Ret and I'm unhappy with the numbers my gear support from it right now. I tried Unholy and it's everything I liked about Ret with a lot more depth and versatility. I really enjoy it. I'm currently Frost trying to master the IT Spam / HB Rotation but when I need to do what I'm expected to do, I'm Unholy.

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Old 02/04/09, 12:12 PM   #1272
Derivel
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Disargeria View Post
Is anyone else upset over Ghostcrawler's reasoning behind Ebon Plaguebringer still not being fixed?
I'm pretty sure the idea here is that it isn't game breaking for unholy, and they're more concerned with buffing blood and frost to be as appealing as unholy is than they are with fixing this.

Honestly I have barely noticed any difference in my damage due to controlling EP or not, and the content right now is not so demanding that the small amount of DPS lost is going to make or break your raid. I'm all for blood and frost being made comparable though. Actually I think frost is great, I just don't like having to add multiple hotkeys and pay attention to even more variables with it, not to mention potential frost resistant enemies going forward with raids in IC.

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Old 02/04/09, 12:38 PM   #1273
Swarly
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Runetotem
Originally Posted by Coffins View Post
I was thinking giving it a Storm Strike / Flame Shock-esque mechanic would solve the problem.

You can have multiple Storm Strike and Flame Shock debuffs on a single target yet they only apply to their respective Shaman. Shaman A's Lava Burst won't consume Shaman B's Flame Shock, and the same policy applies for Storm Strike. Why not do the same with Ebon Plaguebringer? I know Storm Strike and Flame Shock use different mechanics for different purposes, but I'm sure it's something Blizzard could make work. Earth And Moon and Curse Of Elements can all be applied but won't stack.
The problem is that EP is unlike SS/FS in that it has a raid buff component, while it is also unlike CoE in that it has a personal damage component. I can't say for sure but I'd guess this is where part of the problem comes from. While Earth and Moon and CoE can both be applied to a single mob can you have multiple applications of each spell on one target? My guess is no, which would imply its something in the way the code works for debuffs of that nature that has to change in order to accommodate EP. If it were a simple fix like making it act like SS/FS it would have gone in weeks ago.

That being said the math is already out there and even if you don't like how he worded his statement he did said they're going to fix it. I think this issue can be put to rest.

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Old 02/04/09, 12:45 PM   #1274
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Kapaneus View Post
I use it because it just does so much damage. I tried blood spec last night, and still topped the meter, but did a lot less damage. To give you an example, I did the same DPS on loatheb as blood as I did on Anub'rekhan as unholy. W T F.
That can have a wide variety of reasons, ranging from raid composition to the fact you are unfamiliar with the spec.
Unholy DPS does good rotation. But in general all specs do good dps if played well.

I think the DK is unique in its kind that so many different specs are all so incredibly viable.

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Old 02/04/09, 1:16 PM   #1275
Havenwood
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Lightning's Blade
I presume that the "reward groups that bring multiple Unholy DKs" comment is solely directed at the previously proposed fix of allowing EP to simply "stack." This would mean, for example, if a raid took 4 Unholy DKs then there would be 4 stacked EPs on a boss, which would increasing magic damage taken by 52%. EP stacked multiple times is just way too good. Simply stacking EP is likely an easier fix to implement, but the personal use of the third disease without the stacking debuff is what I think they are holding out for.

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